Underrail Forum
Underrail: Infusion => General => Topic started by: apollounderrail on December 29, 2024, 10:39:56 pm
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I truly loved the old system, however, let's be honest:
- Using TM or various perks allowed you to do massive damage to formidable groups of enemies without taking any hits at all. The many, highly effective 3 con builds were pretty obscene.
- Conversely, losing the first turn often meant instant death on dominating, e.g., versus Carnifex.
- Watching a screen of enemies each taking full turns one by one was boring, and necessitated time hack apps.
- Being able to run past a whole pack of rathounds all in one fell swoop, while they sit there doing nothing, was immersion breaking and silly. I quite enjoyed watching how the rathounds closed in around the player.
Have some faith! Do you really think the same devs who made Underrail and Expedition will release something unfun, or that lacks strategic depth?
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1. That's the TM problem (which everyone knows is too OP even for psi), not the combat system problem.
2. No, unless you play exclusively glass cannons. Most builds will be able to survive Carnifex turn if they prepare properly.
3. So now you gonna watch enemies taking turns after every action you do. Don't see how it's any better. Game already had 500% actions speed, there never was any need for "time hack apps" for combat.
4. It's not more "immersion breaking" than anything else in turn based. Or rtwp based for that matter.
Do you really think the same devs who made Underrail and Expedition will release something unfun, or that lacks strategic depth?
Yes. If you want blind faith, go preorder some AAA crap. Or join a cult.
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The new system is just terrible. This is directly demonstrated at the end of the video when the enemies stop running away for no reason.
I think the developer listened to those for whom the game was too "slow" and made a big mistake.
Have some faith! Do you really think the same devs who made Underrail and Expedition will release something unfun, or that lacks strategic depth?
But it was a good turn-based game. And I believe they could make a turn-based game even better. But not this.
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The new system is just terrible. This is directly demonstrated at the end of the video when the enemies stop running away for no reason.
Insects don't run if they weren't inclined to run to begin with.
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- Using TM or various perks allowed you to do massive damage to formidable groups of enemies without taking any hits at all. The many, highly effective 3 con builds were pretty obscene.
- Conversely, losing the first turn often meant instant death on dominating, e.g., versus Carnifex.
- Watching a screen of enemies each taking full turns one by one was boring, and necessitated time hack apps.
- Being able to run past a whole pack of rathounds all in one fell swoop, while they sit there doing nothing, was immersion breaking and silly. I quite enjoyed watching how the rathounds closed in around the player.
I suggested a shorter/smaller turns system a long time ago because yes, it's pretty damn silly that I can make literally 30 sword attacks before anybody else can lift a finger. TM adds to that, but only somewhat; it isn't the whole problem. I have no problem with 3 con builds being effective alpha strikers or Hit'n'Run-ers, but in underrail it was too much and too easy.
Waiting on your turn is only bad in expedition where theres often 20 enemies at a time. If the new system is harder/more realistic, we won't be seeing so many combatants in a fight. There won't be any successful fights against fort apogee for instance.
So many people are dooming about the new system; it feels a lot like how the psi players got mad about the psi nerf.
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This is not a fair comparison. One mechanic and the whole combat system.
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I do worry that designers sometimes listen to criticism too much and take away what makes a game very successful. The current game is so good, I'd rather just have a sequel along the same lines with some smaller tweaks.
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I suggested a shorter/smaller turns system a long time ago because yes, it's pretty damn silly that I can make literally 30 sword attacks before anybody else can lift a finger. TM adds to that, but only somewhat; it isn't the whole problem. I have no problem with 3 con builds being effective alpha strikers or Hit'n'Run-ers, but in underrail it was too much and too easy.
Waiting on your turn is only bad in expedition where theres often 20 enemies at a time. If the new system is harder/more realistic, we won't be seeing so many combatants in a fight. There won't be any successful fights against fort apogee for instance.
So many people are dooming about the new system; it feels a lot like how the psi players got mad about the psi nerf.
Well put. Who knows, perhaps the devs might increase the AP per turn, to be a more moderate change.
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1. That's the TM problem (which everyone knows is too OP even for psi), not the combat system problem.
2. No, unless you play exclusively glass cannons. Most builds will be able to survive Carnifex turn if they prepare properly.
3. So now you gonna watch enemies taking turns after every action you do. Don't see how it's any better. Game already had 500% actions speed, there never was any need for "time hack apps" for combat.
4. It's not more "immersion breaking" than anything else in turn based. Or rtwp based for that matter.
Do you really think the same devs who made Underrail and Expedition will release something unfun, or that lacks strategic depth?
Yes. If you want blind faith, go preorder some AAA crap. Or join a cult.
Abilities like Bullet Time can also be really OP in combination with a long player turn, so it's really not just TM.
And enemies will definitely not be taking turns, they will all move at once, which would be a massive improvement in speed. It would also lead to some funny moments where say 20 Expedition locusts all spit at once and instagib you, but that just comes with the territory.
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Abilities like Bullet Time can also be really OP in combination with a long player turn, so it's really not just TM.
Sure. There are definitely some imbalances in the current system. But at least we know where they are and you could tweak them in a new design. I would have more confidence in that than in introducing a whole new system that will have imbalances which are much less clear in advance.
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1. That's the TM problem (which everyone knows is too OP even for psi), not the combat system problem.
2. No, unless you play exclusively glass cannons. Most builds will be able to survive Carnifex turn if they prepare properly.
3. So now you gonna watch enemies taking turns after every action you do. Don't see how it's any better. Game already had 500% actions speed, there never was any need for "time hack apps" for combat.
4. It's not more "immersion breaking" than anything else in turn based. Or rtwp based for that matter.
Do you really think the same devs who made Underrail and Expedition will release something unfun, or that lacks strategic depth?
Yes. If you want blind faith, go preorder some AAA crap. Or join a cult.
Abilities like Bullet Time can also be really OP in combination with a long player turn, so it's really not just TM.
And enemies will definitely not be taking turns, they will all move at once, which would be a massive improvement in speed. It would also lead to some funny moments where say 20 Expedition locusts all spit at once and instagib you, but that just comes with the territory.
Bullet time is ok and not really too OP. It affects single target shots from a pistol after all. So yeah, it's mostly psi that had a problem.
Yeah it will be "fun" when you get killed by any combination of enemies in a group larger than 3 or something. When every action you make,even if it's just walking, gives enemy a turn for an attack, you gonna get outnumbered quite easily, which as the other guy said is easily seen at the end fo the video.
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Any system can be balanced. I just think it's easier to balance if you're starting with something with which you have a whole lot of experience, rather than if you're starting with something entirely new.
Now I'm wishing for a big Underrail expansion AS WELL AS Infusion.
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Any system can be balanced. I just think it's easier to balance if you're starting with something with which you have a whole lot of experience, rather than if you're starting with something entirely new.
Now I'm wishing for a big Underrail expansion AS WELL AS Infusion.
I would pay 10x price for original underrail with proper modding tools. The basic system was pretty great and engaging, if only it had great tool for user created content, it would last probably as long as NWN did.
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Now I'm wishing for a big Underrail expansion AS WELL AS Infusion.
Thaaaats not happening.
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Then a few small ones. :)
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Thaaaats not happening.
"Wishing" is always happening!!
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1. That's the TM problem (which everyone knows is too OP even for psi), not the combat system problem.
2. No, unless you play exclusively glass cannons. Most builds will be able to survive Carnifex turn if they prepare properly.
3. So now you gonna watch enemies taking turns after every action you do. Don't see how it's any better. Game already had 500% actions speed, there never was any need for "time hack apps" for combat.
4. It's not more "immersion breaking" than anything else in turn based. Or rtwp based for that matter.
Do you really think the same devs who made Underrail and Expedition will release something unfun, or that lacks strategic depth?
Yes. If you want blind faith, go preorder some AAA crap. Or join a cult.
Abilities like Bullet Time can also be really OP in combination with a long player turn, so it's really not just TM.
And enemies will definitely not be taking turns, they will all move at once, which would be a massive improvement in speed. It would also lead to some funny moments where say 20 Expedition locusts all spit at once and instagib you, but that just comes with the territory.
Bullet time is ok and not really too OP. It affects single target shots from a pistol after all. So yeah, it's mostly psi that had a problem.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-R7PdkJTBTo in this one breh (Eidein) didn't even need Temporal Contraction, he had like 35 AP left.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGaVeva0O54 in this breh (Paposik) only used like 5 AP from Temporal Contraction
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-R7PdkJTBTo in this one breh (Eidein) didn't even need Temporal Contraction, he had like 35 AP left.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGaVeva0O54 in this breh (Paposik) only used like 5 AP from Temporal Contraction
Surely 99% crit is the main "issue" here, not Bullet Time?
But, the whole design of the game is that if you lean into any one thing you can generally be really good at that one thing. There are like a dozen different builds that are all similarly strong. If you didn't want them to be that strong, you could just scale back all of the synergies, rather than revamping the whole combat system.
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Also, you may have your issues with "alpha strike", but surely it's more ridiculous to imagine that people can armor themselves up so much that they can survive multiple high caliber shots and large explosions? In a gunfight with multiple adversaries, it's *true* that the way to win is to kill them before they kill you (either by killing them quickly, or by firing from cover so they can't hit you back).
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In my opinion, the main OP is the grenade launchers. And they are made for this game.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-R7PdkJTBTo in this one breh (Eidein) didn't even need Temporal Contraction, he had like 35 AP left.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGaVeva0O54 in this breh (Paposik) only used like 5 AP from Temporal Contraction
What exactly does the main job here? Bullet time is only part of the equation. Not even necessary one, since without it he would still be able to kill big t most likely. It's more about how OP crit builds are, especially Survival Instinct. Energy pistol crit build would do even better. So would AR crit build. Especially if you have TM at your disposal with stuff like Stasis to cover weaknesses of SI.
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There will be minor updates but I wouldn't expect any significant new content.
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Welp, knowing there won't be the same AP turn based combat system is quite a bummer.
I don't doubt the new system will work out fine, one way or another, like may other games do in fact, but I am disappointed at the prospective of losing what made this game stand out from those others. :-\
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New combat system looks interesting, thats enough for early alpha build. We still yet to see details, like how we'll interact with environment during fight or how enemies will behave, maybe they will learn to take cover and not to push mindlessly.
The real clog moment in video is UI where character icon was previously. Hope it just a placeholder, because classic bars with icon are better.
Also 3D icons of items looks off, good 2D sprites may be better or to give 3D icons different angel and colors for backgrounds of inventory tiles depending on items type/rarity. I see some things got inspired from Tarkov, there 3D icons looks good because of those things.
Another question is how inventory will work with backpacks? Will it be old inventory system or we'll get to manage inventory like in Deus Ex and get more inventory tiles with backpacks? That could be cool if done right.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-R7PdkJTBTo in this one breh (Eidein) didn't even need Temporal Contraction, he had like 35 AP left.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGaVeva0O54 in this breh (Paposik) only used like 5 AP from Temporal Contraction
Surely 99% crit is the main "issue" here, not Bullet Time?
But, the whole design of the game is that if you lean into any one thing you can generally be really good at that one thing. There are like a dozen different builds that are all similarly strong. If you didn't want them to be that strong, you could just scale back all of the synergies, rather than revamping the whole combat system.
Its both. Bullet time is OP I see no way to dispute this.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-R7PdkJTBTo in this one breh (Eidein) didn't even need Temporal Contraction, he had like 35 AP left.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGaVeva0O54 in this breh (Paposik) only used like 5 AP from Temporal Contraction
Surely 99% crit is the main "issue" here, not Bullet Time?
But, the whole design of the game is that if you lean into any one thing you can generally be really good at that one thing. There are like a dozen different builds that are all similarly strong. If you didn't want them to be that strong, you could just scale back all of the synergies, rather than revamping the whole combat system.
Its both. Bullet time is OP I see no way to dispute this.
It's really not. Try playing without any TM and not with some crit build and see how "op" it really is. It's just a single turn that halves (if you put 5 specs into it which is lvl 20) your AP for mechanical pistols. AR without any tricks is way more powerful by itself and becomes so way earlier. Leather gloves build is also way more powerful than that and becomes so earlier. Hell, most weapons can become more powerful than bullet time pistol.
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TM pistol is the strongest build at endgame, but it slowly builds up to that ranking.