optimizing an SMG build any further?

[Twiglard]

Hey,

Since Dominating came out I made a new optimized build. Question is whether it can be optimized further.

See bold text for my own perceived issues.

Attributes:
DEX 16
AGI 6 (8) -- infused hopper tabi boots, food
PER 8
INT 7

Rest dump.

Now, feats:

- Expertise
- Pack Rathound
- Power Management
- Sprint
- Evasive Maneuvers
- Spec Ops
- Commando
- Grenadier

But here are few dubious choices:

- Suppressive Fire (Nimble should be enough on its own)
- Paranoia (sequence helps greatly)
- Nimble (need more AGI)
- Aimed Shot (sidearm)
- Critical Power (sidearm)
- Ambush (very situational)

The main weapon is a "smart muzzled steel cat". The muzzle break attachment allows for 50% more damage. With Expertise, maxed skill, smart goggles and smart attachment the damage is decent.

The character is able to burst 3 times before Commando and Adrenaline Shot. I use a bullet strap belt since the character empties the magazine each turn.

Note, the sidearm is a "smart amplified" plasma pistol. The effective critical damage bonus is 590%. It was only necessary to spend two feats for this sidearm to work.

Now, some issues:

- The burst accuracy falloff is very punitive.
- Evasion with effective 8 Agility has little effective value bonus to justify maxing out.
- Unable to take Agility 7 feats.
- Some skill allocation problems (see below).
- Dropping DEX to 14 and having a Jaguar for same 3 bursts looks like a valid choice.
- Frags and HE grenades only kill what's easily killable, even the Mk5 variant. I should've stuck with 69 Chemistry since Napalm is also 60 Chemistry.
- 80 base Stealth is probably overkill with 8 effective Agility.
- Throwing 55 (111) is probably too much anyway.

Notes:

- What can a crafting user do? Drop crafting? Haven't found a shield that was over 350. At an old playthrough found one that was 600 capacity and that's that.
- Fishing minigame is too annoying for me, hence no Biology allocation. If only there was a craftable automatic fishing hook. Or just standing there being enough.

[TheAverageGortsby]

Still no expert on SMG builds but I think you're right that you maybe don't need 16 base DEX.  14 plus a food buff seems to work fine.  Also, I'm not sure that Power Management is actually a good feat to have in any situation on Dominating.  Your Taser is ideally low quality and doesn't need much juice; if you choose to wear a regen vest, PM doesn't help it anyway; so it's just cloaking device and energy shield, but the benefit you get from a good High Efficiency module is greater than the higher energy capacity. And those Greater Coil Spiders and EMP grenades will just hurt more and more with Power Management.  Compared to your build, I dropped INT to 3 and raised Per and Agi for 3/14/10/3/10/3/3 and it certainly seems to be working out OK, though I only went 10 Agi to play with Blitz.  Even with 3 INT you'll end up with enough skill to make a very good shield once you factor in housing bonus.  And if you think it might take you a while to get through the game, who knows, maybe we'll have Hypercerebrix by then

Opportunist seems quite helpful to me, and Suppressive Fire triggers it.  If you don't have QT so you can bear trap and get the Opportunist buff, SF sure is nice when things get in your face.  Plus if you want even more ridiculous plasma crits, you know.

EDIT: Should mention that the build I actually took to Tchort wasn't the above build.  I'm trying a more SMG-focused SMG build than the first one which was very heavy throwing and low survivability, and ended up requiring *a lot* of reloading in DC.  The build I took to Tchort was http://underrail.info.tm/build/?GQMKCgMKAwfCh8KHAAAAAAAAPABuwod4VV94AAAAAABVKDEZFjA5RyZTN0k-USQ but I can't recommend it as a very good DC build.  All the mobility ended up being less useful than I'd hoped, and the lack of stealth was just brutal.

[Twiglard]

Still no expert on SMG builds but I think you're right that you maybe don't need 16 base DEX.  14 plus a food buff seems to work fine.

Opportunist seems quite helpful to me, and Suppressive Fire triggers it.  If you don't have QT so you can bear trap and get the Opportunist buff, SF sure is nice when things get in your face.  Plus if you want even more ridiculous plasma crits, you know.

Good to know about Opportunist.

This build's Stealth score is totally not DC-viable. I'm gonna load an earlier save and get my frag grenades back. I certainly didn't expect that amount of spawns right in my face. Arke should be easy as pie though.

I go for Low Frequency shields, ~1750 capacity. The extra threshold against Low helps a lot more than easier tanking sniper shots. Especially given how weak Dodge is on Dominating.

I'm sure a 7.62 Jaguar w/ 14 DEX is by all means better than a 16 DEX Steel Cat. The 2 last attribute points are just overkill, other builds have more breathing room. The base Jaguar damage is very slightly lower than Steel Cat's. Get AGI from food and infused hopper tabi boots.

Even with Evasive Maneuvers, 500 or 700 effective Evasion still allows mid-level snipers to hit too often. I should skip Evasive Maneuvers entirely since it gives a flat increase. Therefore, the best allocation for the remaining 2 attribute points has to be PER. Especially accounting for the DC debuff.

I'm gonna try going in without Stealth with a Jaguar, 7 AGI and more PER.

Always using Smart Module + Muzzle Brake + Bullet Strap Belt. Is there anything more optimal?

[Gr8jak]

This would be my dominating difficulty smg build, 9 dex + 1 eel sandwich, wearing super steel ofcourse in combination with full auto for same bullet count as 16 dex builds but more perception. You could tweak it a bit, feats i found least usefull are quick tinkering, and maybe three pointer. you can go for hit and run, but will sacrifice 1 perception for that, or more recommendable, pack rathound so you can carry more stuff to dc.

http://underrail.info.tm/build/?GQgJBgMLAwbCh0YAAADCh8KEACUAOMKHfE9BZwAAAAAACU8kJjFFOTsWAhVJNzA-

10 mercantile just to have acces to kevin for more bullets in foundry, also recommend using  5mm smg jaguar and  8.6 steel cat, found it practical, more w2c bullets and easy combining for reload commando action points.

Khhhm the best smg build ofc.

[Shredded Cheddar]

This would be my dominating difficulty smg build, 9 dex + 1 eel sandwich, wearing super steel ofcourse in combination with full auto for same bullet count as 16 dex builds but more perception. You could tweak it a bit, feats i found least usefull are quick tinkering, and maybe three pointer. you can go for hit and run, but will sacrifice 1 perception for that, or more recommendable, pack rathound so you can carry more stuff to dc.

http://underrail.info.tm/build/?GQgJBgMLAwbCh0YAAADCh8KEACUAOMKHfE9BZwAAAAAACU8kJjFFOTsWAhVJNzA-

10 mercantile just to have acces to kevin for more bullets in foundry, also recommend using  5mm smg jaguar and  8.6 steel cat, found it practical, more w2c bullets and easy combining for reload commando action points.

Khhhm the best smg build ofc.

Love the interesting take you took with this build as a bit of a guns expert myself. However, the ordering of your feats in this link seems super off considering you don't have spec ops taken til level 16.

I'd say that sprint should be taken earlier and spec ops could be taken at level 8, moving armor sloping to later in the build as well as recklessness since jumping from 4/5 to 11/12% crit isn't such a huge deal as far as damage output.

Other questionable parts of the build are the late takes on grenadier and quick tinkering, I'm assuming the feats are a bit out of order here since it seems like a lot of the more useful feats are taken much later in levels.

My feat order would look more like:

expertise, sprint
opportunist
QT
full auto
spec ops
grenadier
suppressive fire
commando
ambush
nimble
armor sloping
three-pointer
recklessness


Otherwise very nice ideas and I agree about the point of not taking dex to 16.

[Gr8jak]

I was just spaming feats and skills so people know what to choose, smg feats are imho no brainer in order. And quick tinkering... rly, ppl put that abillity on pedestal, used it maybe 4 times in game just so i use the feat, was rather useless. And guess where on poor carnifex, didnt even touch me. But op build, supersteel rly good, faceles camp no dmg, arke, scrap metal, doing 0 dmg, same as those poor tchortists, rather easy time once u get full super steel boots ad armor. Only problem are electric dmg bastards like coil spiders, wasnt crazy to carry galvanic super steel around, sturdy vest all the way.

You could even put in snipers in play with this build, feats to go as mentioned quick tinkering, three pointer, ambush, and dunno pick smth u find least usefull and put in snipe, sharpshooter, and that crit damage feat, aimed shot, maybe im missing smth, but would be fun to try out.

[Gr8jak]

Got 1 even better build, though maybe an overkill. Idea is using 8.6 hornet assault rifle for 30 ap burst and 7.6 smg for 16 cost burst, and you are left with 1 weapon to reload every turn. Super steel again ofc with sturdy vest etc. Now 7.6 smg does around 19 percent less damage than 8.6  which is enough to 1 shot something + extra perception + concentrated power seems good, you are guaranteed effective kill or 2.

http://underrail.info.tm/build/?GQgJBgMLAwbCh0YAAADCh8KEACUAOMKHfE9BZwAAAAAACU8kJkU5OxYVSTcxPkoo

Now you can change a feat or 2, maybe paranoia for pack rahound if you plan on dexterity food to cap yourself at 9 dexterity so you can carry all that junk and get 1 extra perception, but initiative is good. Dont recommend quick tinkering, melee guys arent your problem, in full metal with all that stoping power. Maybe add in point shot feat and try 7.6 assault rifle for 27 ap burst or aimed shot and smg, to finish smth off, but not sure didnt try that 1. Actually think it would be good to get aimed shot and use it on smg, assault rifle with 7 bullets is overkill anyway, might use weakest 1 so you get more control with that 1 extra crit on cooldown maybe even get critical power feat for extra reliability, but thats maybe better left off for expedition, when more feats are in play. You will not even suffer reloads.
Dominating difficulty only.

[harperfan7]

Actually melee guys often are a problem, because they hit you with crippling strike which lowers your strength below the threshold for wearing armor, leaving you with 35 ap.

[Gr8jak]

Trust me, the closer they are, more bullets they eat, rly dont remember them as problem with previous smg build, and didnt use quick tinkering once out of neccesity, only because i picked the feat, so i had to use it, so it doesnt feel like a waste

[Gr8jak]

Got 1 even better build, though maybe an overkill. Idea is using 8.6 hornet assault rifle for 30 ap burst and 7.6 smg for 16 cost burst, and you are left with 1 weapon to reload every turn. Super steel again ofc with sturdy vest etc. Now 7.6 smg does around 19 percent less damage than 8.6  which is enough to 1 shot something + extra perception + concentrated power seems good, you are guaranteed effective kill or 2.

http://underrail.info.tm/build/?GQgJBgMLAwbCh0YAAADCh8KEACUAOMKHfE9BZwAAAAAACU8kJkU5OxYVSTcxPkoo

Now you can change a feat or 2, maybe paranoia for pack rahound if you plan on dexterity food to cap yourself at 9 dexterity so you can carry all that junk and get 1 extra perception, but initiative is good. Dont recommend quick tinkering, melee guys arent your problem, in full metal with all that stoping power. Maybe add in point shot feat and try 7.6 assault rifle for 27 ap burst or aimed shot and smg, to finish smth off, but not sure didnt try that 1. Actually think it would be good to get aimed shot and use it on smg, assault rifle with 7 bullets is overkill anyway, might use weakest 1 so you get more control with that 1 extra crit on cooldown maybe even get critical power feat for extra reliability, but thats maybe better left off for expedition, when more feats are in play. You will not even suffer reloads.
Dominating difficulty only.

errm better version with 7.6 hornet and  7.6 smg
http://underrail.info.tm/build/?GQgGBwMNAwbCh0YAAADCh8KEACUAOMKHfE9BZwAAAAAACU8kJkU5OxYVSTcxSigZ

[newageofpower]

Now that Smart Module won't work on Burst anymore, what do you guys think is the best SMG setup?

[Gr8jak]

Wow big nerf, well what else is there, muzzle brake and seeker lense so a build with something like this. 7.6 smg btw in both hands. Idea is crit chance.

http://underrail.info.tm/build/?GQMIBgUOAwfCh0EAAMKHwodlAAAANGZuSj1uAAAAAAAACE8kJjFTXTk7FjdJPic

So you have quite a bit of survivability with aegis+ conditioning + ancient rathound boots or tabi boots and infused rathound leather armor for crit chance all comboed with skinner feat, you can also remove 3 perception and put them into dexterity to use steel cat in combination with critical power, but i think jaguar and 3 perception would be better, might be wrong.
Ofcourse eel sandwich is a must now, or i think there is some crit food now, not sure, well -1 perception and put into dex so you have 9. And dont forget +5 extra feats, fuck it no lockpicking, but there is loot all over the map, money rly isnt an issue. And yes next breakpoint for extra burst is at 7 stat difference, is a trap atleast for dominating difficulty imo, u are better of with those points in perception, more damage and accuracy thats why you can even use 7.6 smg, coz of all that perception + you also have gun nut.

Or you could go with previoulsy mentioned build which iam playing now is rly imbalanced with ar, smg, Long range burst ftw + extra smg burst. Hit and run totaly dumpable.
In expedition though, you would lose out on crit chance from leather armor but you would get extra 2 bullets, since no smart module or smart lense. But in current state this is by far strongest burst build i played, and i play only burst builds (nothing compares with that firepower).

http://underrail.info.tm/build/?GQgGBwMNAwbCh0oAAADCh8KEAC0AO8KHdk9BZwAAAAAAAE8kJkU5OxYVSTcxSigZ
7.6 hornet and 7.6 jaguar

Will give link to some replay as soon as it uploads on youtube

[ciox]

You can't use scopes with SMGs so for a crit build you would just use a Steel Cat and Critical Power and try to get many bursts so that crits happen often.

I'm pretty sure Rapid Muzzled is the best deal, for rifles it's either Rapid Muzzled or Scoped Muzzled, latter if you have a 16 AP rifle as Rapid won't do much and the scope should be more useful.

[Gr8jak]

that dominating difficulty.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RA61IE5UdNo