Author Topic: What happened to the SMG+spec ops and questions about AR/thought control hybrid  (Read 3153 times)

andvare

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Is SMG+spec ops considered trash now? I see very few builds being posted around this concept, or even SMGs

Also I´m considering this build for my first playthrough, "Assault Rifle / Thought Control hybrid".

Build link: https://underrail.info/build/?HgcDAwMNCgfCoF8AAAAAwqBPcAAAZG4rS1rCoAAAAAAAYCtPJCY7FSpKwrxJISxlBSnCtWbCu8Kdwp7CruKfogLip6oD4qe0Ct-_

https://stygiansoftware.com/forums/index.php?topic=6057.0

Is it a strong build, compared to others of the same "tier"? Or has other, more competitive builds been discovered since the posting of this build?
« Last Edit: February 25, 2022, 02:11:21 pm by andvare »

Zeem

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SMG builds are fine, nothing changed about them outside of reworked uniques being more interesting now. Said lack of change is probably why people don't post them much anymore as there's nothing new to say.
The build seems alright, but there isn't much synergy between TC and AR. ARs in general shred absolutely everything with ease. With 3 CON and AGI you won't be able to maneuver or tank much, so you'd mostly be engaging opponents at longer ranges, denying you the opportunity to use your TC abilities.
I'd drop Expertise, though, ARs are better built for crits instead.

andvare

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I see, I would appreciate if you could post or otherwise direct me to a proper AR build

I don´t have any specific requirements other than an optimal build that can handle most content.

Perhaps something like this? AR Tin Can
Is Conditioning too much since I will be wearing Tungsten Armor?
What should I spend the remaining feats on?

https://underrail.info/build/?HgkDAwoMAwbCoG0AAAAAAGVsAADCoMKgV2NsAAAAAAAAditjOyYVSghJMUsnVcK1wqQOw4zCreKfogXip7QK378

Or should I go AGI and try to keep distance, while wearing equipment that enhances critical chance?

Also, one of the main complaints about Tin Can AR seems to be that it´s boring.

What are some other alternative builds that are considered more "fun" to play? I understand that fun is subjective, so perhaps we should talk about more "complex" rather than "fun".
« Last Edit: February 26, 2022, 11:48:37 am by andvare »

Turbodevil

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I run SMGs first times I played this game and I disliked it. It's very strong, no doubt about it. But build has couple of unfun mechanics:

- short range, need to be on the move constantly to close distance if you want to be effective
- boring mehanics. All you do is keep bursting
- reliance on Versatility. Optimal way to build it is using that feat and it means slow progression early and mid game
- massive ammo consumption. You reload all the time and keep wasting bullets, need to buy/craft more all the time, it gets old quickly

Regarding AR/TC hybrid, there is massive synergy between each other, ARs first two bursts have very low AP cost thanks to specced Commando and Rapid reloader. TC (and psi in general) has one free spellcast per fight thanks to Premeditation and TC in particular has Locus of Control feat, which you can use to either to make yourself immune to crowd control, or to cast AoE nuke that shreds trhough living targets. Also lots of cc spells and defense through mirror images.

Zeem

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I see, I would appreciate if you could post or otherwise direct me to a proper AR build

I don´t have any specific requirements other than an optimal build that can handle most content.

Perhaps something like this? AR Tin Can
Is Conditioning too much since I will be wearing Tungsten Armor?
What should I spend the remaining feats on?

https://underrail.info/build/?HgkDAwoMAwbCoG0AAAAAAGVsAADCoMKgV2NsAAAAAAAAditjOyYVSghJMUsnVcK1wqQOw4zCreKfogXip7QK378

Or should I go AGI and try to keep distance, while wearing equipment that enhances critical chance?

Also, one of the main complaints about Tin Can AR seems to be that it´s boring.

What are some other alternative builds that are considered more "fun" to play? I understand that fun is subjective, so perhaps we should talk about more "complex" rather than "fun".
The build is fine. I would drop Recklessness and Pack Rathound and replace Doctor with Fast Metabolism. There's no overkill in tanking, so Conditioning is a very good pick.

andvare

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I run SMGs first times I played this game and I disliked it. It's very strong, no doubt about it. But build has couple of unfun mechanics:

- short range, need to be on the move constantly to close distance if you want to be effective
- boring mehanics. All you do is keep bursting
- reliance on Versatility. Optimal way to build it is using that feat and it means slow progression early and mid game
- massive ammo consumption. You reload all the time and keep wasting bullets, need to buy/craft more all the time, it gets old quickly

Regarding AR/TC hybrid, there is massive synergy between each other, ARs first two bursts have very low AP cost thanks to specced Commando and Rapid reloader. TC (and psi in general) has one free spellcast per fight thanks to Premeditation and TC in particular has Locus of Control feat, which you can use to either to make yourself immune to crowd control, or to cast AoE nuke that shreds trhough living targets. Also lots of cc spells and defense through mirror images.

Sounds a lot like an AR build! I guess you need Versatility to handle bots.

Seems like the AR/TC hybrid brings a lot of utility which the Tin Can AR lacks while increasing the complexity and perhaps making it more fun to play.

What other builds did you enjoy?

I see, I would appreciate if you could post or otherwise direct me to a proper AR build

I don´t have any specific requirements other than an optimal build that can handle most content.

Perhaps something like this? AR Tin Can
Is Conditioning too much since I will be wearing Tungsten Armor?
What should I spend the remaining feats on?

https://underrail.info/build/?HgkDAwoMAwbCoG0AAAAAAGVsAADCoMKgV2NsAAAAAAAAditjOyYVSghJMUsnVcK1wqQOw4zCreKfogXip7QK378

Or should I go AGI and try to keep distance, while wearing equipment that enhances critical chance?

Also, one of the main complaints about Tin Can AR seems to be that it´s boring.

What are some other alternative builds that are considered more "fun" to play? I understand that fun is subjective, so perhaps we should talk about more "complex" rather than "fun".
The build is fine. I would drop Recklessness and Pack Rathound and replace Doctor with Fast Metabolism. There's no overkill in tanking, so Conditioning is a very good pick.

What would you replace Recklessness and Pack Rathound with? I´m ending up with a lots of spare feats, which I don´t really know what to do with.

Quidam Craft

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I run SMGs first times I played this game and I disliked it. It's very strong, no doubt about it. But build has couple of unfun mechanics:

- short range, need to be on the move constantly to close distance if you want to be effective
- boring mehanics. All you do is keep bursting
- reliance on Versatility. Optimal way to build it is using that feat and it means slow progression early and mid game
- massive ammo consumption. You reload all the time and keep wasting bullets, need to buy/craft more all the time, it gets old quickly

Regarding AR/TC hybrid, there is massive synergy between each other, ARs first two bursts have very low AP cost thanks to specced Commando and Rapid reloader. TC (and psi in general) has one free spellcast per fight thanks to Premeditation and TC in particular has Locus of Control feat, which you can use to either to make yourself immune to crowd control, or to cast AoE nuke that shreds trhough living targets. Also lots of cc spells and defense through mirror images.

There is ways to make SMG builds fun to use, and counter all these specifics points.

-Short range, and be on the move is not unfun by itself, it often provide good times with positioning.

-Versatility (and full dex) open a lot of other tactics to complement and SMG build, plus you need very little feats to be good with a SMG. If you add Throwing with Fatal Throw for instance, you gain a good finisher when a burst isn't needed, and a way to gain more AP for more burst.

- Also, concerning short range, throwing knives gives you range, more range than your burst, and hell accurate with that much dext.

- You can also counter difficult early game and power curve with expertise. While not being that good once you get to the end game, Expertise give you a better power curve early to mid game, when you'll need it most.

- Spec ops complement well with grenadier, and high dex complement well with three pointer so you can also go the grenade route for both crowd control and AOE damage

- If you use all these tools, grenades and knives, ammo becomes less an issue. Regarding repairs well you can go specced dissasemble if you really want to tackle the problem.

- Versatility means you will have high melee. You can also use it, with Dirty Kick and Expose weakness for instance, that offer strong CC against lots of bosses and will just make your SMG even stronger while making the build even funnier to play. also, you can get other melee stuff like evicerate (with 7.62 micro shrapnel), or cut throat (not that good, but fun to use). Or even without specialized feats, you can kill things with a knife.

So yeah, if you go full SMG, a bit stupidly straightforward. It's boring, but if you really use versatility and your high dex, you can have fun, and you won't even burst that much.

andvare

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Thank you for the writeup, I will certainly consider an smg playthrough.

What are some other builds that you have enjoyed?

Easy

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If you're going to do AR/armor, like that tin can build you posted, might as well pick up TM for Psycho-temporal Contraction and Stasis. You have the extra feats and skill points and those TM abilities are really good.

I've taken this build through dominating a few times, and it is great as long as blowing things up with bursts appeals to you - https://underrail.info/build/?HgkDAwoMAwbCoGYAAAAAAGJvAADCoMKgWGVuAAAARgAAeCtjTzsmFcKHSidJKjFLCFDCtcKkVcKtw4Xin6IF4qe0Ct-_

On expertise, it is a great feat for early game when your crit chance is low, and continues to be useful later because even if you build for crit a lot of your hits are still going to be non-crit.