Author Topic: Assault Rifle / Thought Control hybrid  (Read 54375 times)

Koveras

  • Zoner
  • **
  • Posts: 52
  • Karma: +24/-3
    • View Profile
Assault Rifle / Thought Control hybrid
« on: November 15, 2020, 01:38:47 pm »

For once I did not go for a meme build, I wanted to explore the new waterways easily. So, stealthy assault rifle build, with thoughts control support; it's no rocket science, but it's a nice change from tin can, so here it is. AR is for damage, TC for is for crowd control and defence. As expected the build is ridiculously strong: middle/high stealth, can one burst kill nearly any ennemy in the game, reliably fires 3 AR burst per turn without haste, can evade 9 attacks with Pseudo Spatial Projection, can break CC with Locus of Control, neural overload is a free AoE nuke... It can one turn kill the final boss using either two AR bursts or a single Neural Overload.

Overview:
Build link: https://underrail.info/build/?HgcDAwMNCgfCoF8AAAAAwqBPcAAAZG4rS1rCoAAAAAAAYCtPJCY7FSpKwrxJISxlBSnCtWbCu8Kdwp7CruKfogLip6oD4qe0Ct-_
Gear: 7.62 rapid muzzled hornet, Høddurform, psi sturdy stealthy tactical vest, psi headband (see below), any boots you like (I used bison tabi boots)

No critical low caliber Assault rifle:
Everyone knows AR are kinda broken, but generally people insist on including some critical. And yes, crit is good for AR, but it is by no mean necessary. I used a standard 7.62 rapid muzzled hornet. The new rapid reloader can activate on every individual shot, so it has about 90% chance of activating on a burst. The minimum AP gained this way is 4 with this rifle, which is exactly the amount needed for a second burst (27 AP for a burst, 2*27=50+4). Then we have Expertise, which is amplified by Concentrated Fire. Fully specialized Concentrated Fire goes up to 300%. Enemies are sad (and dead).


That's a naga protector dying to one burst, using W2C ammo, no active buffs at all.

10 WILL Thought control:
There are two main reasons to go TC: Pseudo Spatial Projection and Locus of Control. These, a sturdy tact vest, and a 2K energy shield makes it rather easy to survive. And then I scaled Neural Overload as much as I could. Since crit chance is low, I only use NO when Psi Mania is available. It's hardly a problem since NO is best used with either Mental Breakdown or LoC, and they both have long cooldowns too. I was a little worried that 10 WILL would be low, turns out it is fine. Specialized headbands are kinda cool.


Like, really cool! Who needs high WILL when you can just get a 40% multiplier out of nowhere.


To be fair, the final boss has quite a high INT score, so that number is clearly higher than the typical NO. Still enough to one shot most of the bosses, or nuke packs with LoC.

Final notes:
This build is not completely beginner friendly because of the 3 CON, but it is only a slight issue at the very start of the game. After that the only real problem is the usual one with AR: it gets kinda boring. Still way better than the standard tin can AR in that regard, with stealth and TC to spice up things. The build could probably be optimized a little bit to include Temporal Manipulation, for Stasis and Acceleration, but I'm not even sure it would feel stronger.

HulkOSaurus

  • Tchortist
  • ****
  • Posts: 314
  • Karma: +47/-32
    • View Profile
Re: Assault Rifle / Thought Control hybrid
« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2020, 02:21:11 pm »
Was it flawless?

Koveras

  • Zoner
  • **
  • Posts: 52
  • Karma: +24/-3
    • View Profile
Re: Assault Rifle / Thought Control hybrid
« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2020, 06:42:58 pm »
In my opinion there's no such thing as a flawless build in underrail, I guess that's why I like the game so much.

This build is on the glass canon side of things, with all the problems that come with it. It is not as fragile as a Survival Instinct character wearing rathoud leather, but mistakes can get you killed quite fast. For reference, I ended up with 320 HP. The armor offers excellent protection against non sniper bullets, but nothing else.

Also, I found Pseudo Spatial Projection very reliable, but I still got one shot through it a few times. Happened twice with natives and once with a protectorate sniper. The sniper was my bad though, I got overconfident and turned off my shield...

And as I said, begining is a bit rough, especially without meta knowledge. I bypassed most of depot A with stealth and hacking, fighting my way through it would have been a painful experience for sure.

HulkOSaurus

  • Tchortist
  • ****
  • Posts: 314
  • Karma: +47/-32
    • View Profile
Re: Assault Rifle / Thought Control hybrid
« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2020, 07:15:09 pm »
Oh no, I didn't mean the build; was rather asking about the playthrough. Was curious if you died at all, and if you did - how you died, ect.

Yes, the mirror images aren't perfect defence and on a similar note - I am not a big fan of tactical vests. They can't even protect you well versus 9mm ARs. There are some great Expedition leathers which can provide excellent protection, however. The crafting perk for leathers can give you melee immunity with just two pieces of a set together with something like 65 % physical resistance. Not shabby at all.

 

Koveras

  • Zoner
  • **
  • Posts: 52
  • Karma: +24/-3
    • View Profile
Re: Assault Rifle / Thought Control hybrid
« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2020, 08:44:28 pm »
Oh well, I'm not the overly careful type of player, so I did die quite a few times. But most of the deaths can be summed up as "I fucked up". The run was extremely smooth overall, but here are some issues I can remember.

Magnar was probably the most annoying fight, because of his evasion. My NO only hit him for about 1800 damage, then I had to pray for PSP to block everything while I tried to finish him with 20% accuracy bursts. And he has a lot of friends. I could have cheesed the fight with a smoke bomb, but I try never to use them.

I had a few deaths in the Fetid March because I was sneaking past everything and bumped into a crab once or twice. No recovery from engaging 10 wyrms while wearing stealth gear.

I also died several time cleaning the goliathus colony in deep caverns. That's one of the few spot where you can't just yolo in and expect things to go smoothly (not with that build, I remember my Laser character having a blast there)

I died two or three time during Nevil's quest, because I forgot to bring W2C ammo... I had to kill a bunch of industrial bots with standard ammo.

On the other hand, a few things went great. I could one burst locust hives, then use NO to one shot all the locusts that appeared, in a single turn. I could reliably take two hives in one turn with only a few surviving locusts. I did the foundry fight a little late, and it was a slaughter, I had time to repair my rifle between waves.

On gear: the expedition leathers are nice, but heavy. In most cases I feel like mobility offers a better protection against melee, on top of making it easier to break line of sight. I had 56 MP, and I really liked having mobility on an AR build. You need to be close to single target burst, and far to spread the bullets on a group, being able to move is great. And of course, tact vest comes with a bonus to psi, which was the main reason I picked it.

HulkOSaurus

  • Tchortist
  • ****
  • Posts: 314
  • Karma: +47/-32
    • View Profile
Re: Assault Rifle / Thought Control hybrid
« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2020, 09:09:13 pm »
I wouldn't use heavier gear all the time. Rather put it on for specific fights because you can become immune to melee with some of them. That's not worrying at all about how much damage you will take. Yes - Balor will hit you for 0 on a 3 Con psicher :D.

I see no problem in using Vanishing Powder Grenade. You can't use them all the time, plus they aren't reliable as I've observed them not putting a character into stealth. For the Magnar fight in specific I think you can use your stealth to remove the few guard before the corridor and then just rig it with bear traps and gas 'nades. Then your NO will one shot him.

You can do something similar for the Goliathus beetles - make a field of toxic gas and watch them go down.

No EMP3 for Nevil :)? With a decent Infused Hopper Leather and Tabbis you can run to gates and catch individual groups before they even come in the main room. You don't have Grenadier so you probably won't be able to save him, but you won't have great problems, either. Them Nagas you one shot are a good source of SS.

I generally avoid the Marsh, tbh. I don't much like the area and I don't consider there being something that worthwhile to go through all the fodder. Abandoned Waterways is much better for the loot.


Koveras

  • Zoner
  • **
  • Posts: 52
  • Karma: +24/-3
    • View Profile
Re: Assault Rifle / Thought Control hybrid
« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2020, 03:35:53 pm »

The "problem" with Vanishing Powder is that it makes all enemies lose sight of you when it is used, whether or not re-stealthing is successful. If you are standing in their line of sight, they will re-detect quickly most of the time, and the fight will keep going. But if you cut line of sight or run far enough before using the grenade, then combat will end even if stealth was on cooldown. It is rather easy to use this to prematurely end any fight after alpha strike, and to exploit zone transitions. The only time I used it in that playthrough was in the native temple, to exit combat mode before the high priest could see me and summon the damn wyrms.

Balor did 0 damage to me indeed, since he could not reach me :) As I said, against melee, running beats armor almost every time. But I think those heavy leathers would be very nice against crawlers, and probably make spider nests even easier.

And I went to the marsh because I always try to do everything and go everywhere, to get a good feel for the build. Plus, it has a bunch of unique oddities, and I like having my oddity panel filled. Actually, I got 100% oddity for the first time on this character.

destroyor

  • Oculite
  • Tchortist
  • **
  • Posts: 484
  • Karma: +80/-29
    • View Profile
Re: Assault Rifle / Thought Control hybrid
« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2020, 10:52:33 pm »
Slowly reviewing and researching build for my guide. I think this is an excellent build! I'm going to recommend this to as a first build for new players over the old tin can AR but with the following changes:

Removed Power management as its benefit is minimal and replaced it with Iron Will. Resolve is already high but once you have it at level 30 you can pretty much tank Neural Overload and Bilocation from NPC. Another alternative to Iron Will would be Ambush for help dealing w/ high evasion enemies; although it's not going to help you against Magnar since there's no dark spot available. Gun Nut/Psycho-temporal acceleration/Blindsiding/Fight response are also viable choices for this last feat slot.

Keeping Hacking because INT is high, increase effective value to threshold.
Removed Lockpicking due to 3 DEX <- this is a personal preference to save skill point, optional change
Increase effective pickpocketing to 32 with eel sandwich for All-In, optional change
Increase e.chemistry to 69 for MKIV grenades
Increase e.bio for supersoldier drugs
Increase Temporal to 70 for haste + stasis <- imho the most important change as Stasis is a good panic button
Decrease e.merchantile to 105 to unlock all vendor special merchandise tiers.

https://underrail.info/build/?HgcDAwMNCgfCoF8AAAAAwp9UACAAZG4xV1rCoAAARgAAVCtPJCY7KhVKwrxJISxlBWbCtcK7wqfCncKewq7in6IC4qeqA-KntArfvw

I think a sturdy black cloth psi beetle tact vest is perfectly fine as the goal of the build isn't to tank. Early game even on dominating can be done with liberal use of bear traps, caltrops, and grenades. I added a link to this post to my Steam In-depth FAQ. Good work Koveras!

Koveras

  • Zoner
  • **
  • Posts: 52
  • Karma: +24/-3
    • View Profile
Re: Assault Rifle / Thought Control hybrid
« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2020, 10:30:23 pm »
Hey! Glad that you like the build. And thanks, I'm still using your guide after about 1000 hours...

After re-thinking about it, I agree that this should be a nice beginner build. Most of my problems came from playing Dominating/oddity. Magnar, for example, would die in one Neural Overload combo on hard or below.

And yes, adding Temporal Manipulation should make the build better. I was perfectly fine without, but having it can't be a bad thing. Just a little oversight when you tinkered the build: I picked Psycho-Neural Optimisation (mostly for testing, it was hardly useful), you should replace it with one of the other feats you recommended, since it won't work anymore.

Also, I'm physically incapable of leaving a locked container behind me (I might suffer from Al-Phabet syndrome), so I won't comment on not taking lockpicking ^^

destroyor

  • Oculite
  • Tchortist
  • **
  • Posts: 484
  • Karma: +80/-29
    • View Profile
Re: Assault Rifle / Thought Control hybrid
« Reply #9 on: November 25, 2020, 01:37:35 am »
Yes that was an oversight, fixed:
https://underrail.info/build/?HgcDAwMNCgfCoF8AAAAAwp9UACAAZG4xV1rCoAAARgAAVCtPJCY7KhVKLEkhZQVmAsK1wrvCp8Kdwp7CruKfogLip6oD4qe0Ct-_

Yeah you can totally take all skill points from pickpocketing + some points from stealth to reach lockpicking threshold. It's just with 3 DEX you are not really getting the best bang for your buck. :)
« Last Edit: November 25, 2020, 01:42:32 am by destroyor »

doudousteve

  • Probably not a Spambot
  • *
  • Posts: 3
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Assault Rifle / Thought Control hybrid
« Reply #10 on: December 02, 2020, 11:09:31 am »
This looks like a very fun build! May I know the stats distribution (for lvl 4, 8 etc...) and which feats to prioritize when leveling up? This is my 2nd walkthrough but I still consider myself new to builds management.

haze1103

  • Scavenger
  • ***
  • Posts: 130
  • Karma: +15/-3
    • View Profile
Re: Assault Rifle / Thought Control hybrid
« Reply #11 on: December 02, 2020, 02:55:58 pm »
The feats are already ordered by level in the underrail.info page, just look at the bottom left.

For stats, you're going to want to get your target strength from the start, since you won't be able to wield an assault rifle without it (though maybe you can start at 5-6 and wait until level 4). After that, be sure to look at the stat requirements of your feats, to make sure that you'll have the right stats by the level you'll take them. If you start with 7 Will and have to take Psycho-neural optimization at level 12, be sure to raise it by then.
I'd probably go with 7 Strength, 10 Perception, 7 Will, 7 Intelligence (3 for the others) at level 1, raise Will to 10 by level 12 (it can also wait until level 16 for Locus of Control), then go full Perception after that. You can't really start with low Intelligence if you want Premeditation early.

Koveras

  • Zoner
  • **
  • Posts: 52
  • Karma: +24/-3
    • View Profile
Re: Assault Rifle / Thought Control hybrid
« Reply #12 on: December 02, 2020, 03:49:36 pm »

It's always a bit hard to give a roadmap for a build, it really depends on how you like to play. It also depends on the component you find. No point pushing Mechanics if you can't find a good assault rifle frame. But I'll try to give some useful generic rules, and an example of what I think is a proper order.

General idea:
There are two sides to the build: assault rifle and psi. Overall you want to start playing as a pure gunner and progressively add psi. In particular, it is useless to take the pill at level 1, neural overload is really weak early on. Better wait level 4-5 when frighten and mental breakdown become available.

Base stats:
start: 7 STR, 3 DEX, 3 AGI, 3 CON, 10 PER, 7 WILL, 7 INT
Then you need to put 3 points into PER and 3 points into WILL during level up. You need to have at 10 WILL at level 16 so you can pick Locus of Control (the feat is extremely strong, we absolutely don't want to delay it). So you have to pick 1 PER and 3 WILL before level 16, then 2 PER at level 20 and 24. I feel like the best choice is to pick PER at level 4, then WILL at level 8, 12, 16, then PER at level 20, 24.
Another noteworthy point: 15 PER is a lot for an assault rifle build. I did it to compensate the absence of critical, and because I played on dominating. If you play in a lower difficulty, you should be totally fine transferring one or two points from PER to CON. This build doesn't need the extra HP, but it would give you some error margin during the fights.

Skills:
Just a few rules:
- max Guns and Stealth every level
- max Thought Control from level 4
- invest in Temporal Manipulation when you have access to Psycho-temporal Contraction / Stasis
- raise throwing until you are comfortable with your grenades accuracy
- raise electronics early to craft a taser (and do that on every build, btw ^^)
- crafting skills: Mechanics is the most important (rifle), then electronics (shield and headband), then tailoring (tact vest and footwear)
- specialization: Commando, then Concentrated Fire, then Full Auto

Build order:
I used Destroyor's modified build as a basis. I delayed investment in Mercantile compared to what I did, which should be fine unless you play on dominating. Once again, you should feel free to modify it to match your preferences. As long as you max Guns / TC, which you should be doing, you will meet the skill requirement for the feats.

level 1 : no psi yet, wait for level 4; push effective chemistry to 20 at level 2 for Molotov crafting
level 4 : max TC from there, only using it for control at this point ; Suppressive Fire / Opportunist combo makes bursts slightly better
level 8 : 60 hacking for depot A turrets ; enough mechanics to craft a decent AR (try to get a Muzzle Brake) ; Full Auto makes burst significantly stronger at this point
level 12 : put a lot of point in Temporal Manipulation to get to Stasis threshold as soon as possible ; Concentrated Fire makes single target burst deadly at close range ; try getting a rapid reloader as soon as possible
level 16 : push mercantile to start looking at the good stuff of the merchants that should now be available ; with Commando the dps starts being ridiculous
level 20 : push crafting skills to make nice things ; Neural Overload is now fully effective (Mania + LoC) ; specialization into Concentrated Fire significantly increases single target burst damage
level 24 : the build is pretty much finished, the last few feats can be safely exchanged according to personal preferences

destroyor

  • Oculite
  • Tchortist
  • **
  • Posts: 484
  • Karma: +80/-29
    • View Profile
Re: Assault Rifle / Thought Control hybrid
« Reply #13 on: December 03, 2020, 03:36:01 am »
Koveras got the progression down nicely. I already said this on my Steam guide but I'll repeat it here: I'll try to squeeze an update re: build this weekend.

doudousteve

  • Probably not a Spambot
  • *
  • Posts: 3
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Assault Rifle / Thought Control hybrid
« Reply #14 on: December 03, 2020, 10:09:16 am »
OH wow thank you so much!

I totally missed the bottom left on the build page, my bad.
I can't wait to try it out!