Uhm, the economical and crafting sistems stil need some more loving..

[Elhazzared]

I guess you just don't agree with me and that isn't bad, but the thing is I'm not really wrong. It's not really a matter of opinion.

To give you an example. A balanced economy system is one that will allow a player to have everything he wants if he works really hard for it. If he skips most stuff he's not going to have much stuff either. If he does something on the side, thus works more then he'd have everything he needs (not everything he wants, just everything he needs). It is a simple correlation of time investment = profit. Although there should also be a risk factor added to the equasion but we'll keep it simple for the sake of the example... You call this grinding but you are wrong or at least you might just be getting me wrong. What i mean by this is that if you do all side quests (or nearly all as some might be mutually exclusive or you might just not have the required skills to get some) and explore the whole map or almost all of the map you should get money to get everything you want. Why is this not grinding? Well grinding is going over and over the same area each time it respawns for more loot and that is not what I am saying to do at all.

You say you go exploring and it is profitable for you. How is it possible? Well actually I can see how it is but I'll get there in a moment. You do the main storyline quest for that area, loot and sell. Then you go and do the side quests and explore the area around that place. Loot and come back to sell, only that there is nothing to sell anymore, the merchants already bought everything they would have bought from you! How can you be making any money at all except for a few scraps (which are not really worth it just by themselves) that they might pay you directly from completing the quest? The answer is you don't make any money, not unless you take so long that the merchants already respawned the inventory and even then you only sell some of the stuff, most of the stuff you just still won't sell even with smart looting... Now why is it that sidequests and exploring are giving you money? Because you are very likely doing them before the main quest. Which is normal, I do it too, leave the main quest for the end. But what this means is that you do a side quest or two, merchants won't buy more from you, then when you finally go do the main quest you cannot sell anything you got because the merchants just won't buy more! You could have just done the main story line and get the items and sell them and that was how much you'd get from the merchants anyway.

You do are right that players will always find ways to game the game. There is no such thing as a fool proof system and if someone could make one, they'd look for cheats or mods to get around it. That doesn't means you shouldn't strive for a more balanced system.

And I understand that you will most likely still play several times and explore everything with every single character, do as many quests as possible. This is alright, but tell me how many people do you realisticly think will do it as you do when the game discourages them from dong anything aside the main storyline? Because really, they will not be rewarded and I know quite a few people who play CRPGs and you know how it goes. If there is something they could do but it's not worth it, they won't. To them it is a waste of time, they did it once and that was all it took to know what is there. People like to be rewarded for their time. Think of it like in real life. Would you keep doing everyone favors for nothing? Cause if you would basicly you'd have no life of your own. To the same degree, players in games don't like to see their time wasted. Most don't at least. I know some don't mind but most of them? They are just going to ignore anything that doesn't really rewards them.

The replayabillity of CRPGs is trying different builds. The first time is about discovering all there is to discover yes, but after that it's all about trying different builds and seeying what is really fun to play with. You may like to go and explore but exploring is about discovering new things about the game. If you already know them, you are not really exploring anymore, you are merely going there for the sake of going there. If this was a proceduraly generated game, sure, i could understand that, but it's not and in fact it's probably not possible or at least I don't see it being viable to build a CRPG that is proceduraly generated anyway.

[Fenix]

...

Agree with all you said in two huge posts. Completely.

[screeg]

I have to say Elhazzared really has spelled it all out, at length and in great detail, and I agree 1000%. His side is plainly observable facts, the detractors' side is a bunch of opinions. Those opinions matter, of course, that's why we're all here putting them down in zeroes and ones, *BUT* the difference is that if that system were "fixed", ie. you could sell all your crap at the merchants, the detractors could still play the exact same game they want to play, roleplaying along, picking up this and leaving that, and all the compulsive hoarders on the other side (who I think you'll find make up the vast majority of players) could *ALSO* play the game they want to play. It's win-win.

Leave it as it is and on release there's going to be a lot of griping from new players. If it were good design they were complaining about, I'd say screw 'em, but it's not. It was a stab at some innovative design that in this one case failed and should be abandoned.

[movingtarget]

The econ as it is has shop's buying a limited number of item x resetting after x time has passed. How about after they get the ammount of x they are looking for they still buy more of x at a ever reducing price? Selling after they have what they want will reduce the price by "10%" per item sold this lets you make cash but keeps you from getting rich quick.

[Elhazzared]

Wouldn't solve the problem as it would incentivise you to wait till reset to sell.

[JohnyCrown]

After reading Elhazzareds last detailed recent post I must also agree with screeg that he brings up a lot of good points.    I like the idea of a more scarce and survival oriented atmosphere but I really think this needs to be a little more lenient and open to people with different playstyles.   Maybe this could even tie into the difficulty level somehow.  For easy have it where every vendor buys everything and  for normal have it to where it's about like it is now, and in hard maybe make it to where its even more strict for the die hard people.  Or go the other route and just try to balance the whole aspect between all difficulty levels, or just have it an option at game start.  Just a couple ideas but I do think Elhazzared is on to something.   I wouldn't say it's a deal breaker the way it is but I can see how it would turn off at least a few people and that few people later on can turn into hundreds or more. 

[Elhazzared]

The problem with doing it that way is that you really are tying difficulty of combat into merchant and carry mechanics and the two are not related.

I like the fights to be hard, in fact most games I play I go for max difficulty except where I see I cannot handle it which rarely happens. Games just tend to be too easy these days.

But I also like some convinience in my games. Walking around to try and sell everything, making trips back and forth. Waiting for merchants to respawn. Those things are just time wastes to me. It's better to just make it convinient where you can grab everything and sell everything. More time spent immersed on the quests and the story, less time wasted on chores.

[JohnyCrown]

You're probably right, I was just thinking aloud.  But I do believe having it be some sort of option at game start or tweak it to where it can more satisfy both types of players is the best way to do it.  More people happy with the game = more fans = more exposure = better reviews = better sales = more $$$$$

[Fenix]

Wouldn't solve the problem as it would incentivise you to wait till reset to sell.

In that case it would be only your choice to wait, so do not complain.
You can sell all, or you can wait to get "fair price". For me it's "fair deal".

[Elhazzared]

If by fair deal you mean the exact same system as now which to sell everything you can forces you to wait 45 minutes doing nothing. Then sell loot, then wait more 45 minutes, rinse and repeat ad nauseum. Very fun gameplay mechanic, 10/10.

You want to give me choice. At the start of the game add two check boxes. One says carry weight limit, the other says vendors limit. If you want to play with them, by all means. Don't force other players to play with bad mechanics just because you like them.

Granted this is a simplified solution to the problem. it wouldn't make the game balanced because if as it is there is too much money, this will make it worse but it would at least make the game playable.

Idealisticly you'd have only an option. Classic economy system (no carry weight and no vendor limit, though prices would also be different to reflect the fact that you pick up everything and sell everything) and survival system which is the current. Heck you could even add necessity to eat, drink and sleep if you really want to make it even more realistic... It won't make it any better, only add more micromanagement, not really add any depth, but you could and I'm sure some people would love it.

What is idealistic you can leave for a final release due to the time it takes to implement and the simple solution could be implemented at any time. I'm pretty sure adding an option that will make carry weight disapear and vendors buy everything is not only easy, but any modder could do in probably less than a couple hours, let alone the developers who know the code very well by comparison.

[Fenix]

Too many choices isn't good.
The game look in that case like a shapeless piece of protoplasm - there is no strong sense of integral concept, it is not clear where the mitochondria, and where the nucleus.
Add this, add that, add no limit, add infinit HP in the end (and thats besides testing and balancing).
The problem is you don't need choice (just like I see it) - you need to sell stuff at full price.

[Elhazzared]

Is that so? Because no one reported a problem with that system when it was in place. Clearly your vision is a bit warped there. Not having carry limits and merchant limits on what they buy would only remove a chore from the game, it would not impact the concept of the game in any way.

And yes, I want to sell stuff at full price. As i should. Like many others I don't like to feel like I'm being robbed blind by the game. Perhaps you enjoy the sensation of bad mechanics. Like I said, I got nothing against you liking bad mechanics. But don't try and drag people who don't like them into your playing field because a game is about having fun and most people will not have fun playing a game with bad mechanics.

[Fenix]

If there is some choice (and it is) - there is no chore.
You can reassemble excess stuff in repair kits, and if movingtarget's proposal will be implemented (in any form) it would be additional choice.

[Elhazzared]

Breaking stuff into repair kits = losing lots of money. Not an option, it feels being robbed blind by a bad game decision.
Merchants paying less for items past the amount they want = losing money. Same thing as above.

So you call these options, I don't. They are not options to me, they are nothing more than encouragement to spend whatever time it takes doing nothing until I can sell. Of course I'd be long bored by then and stoped playing rather than dealing with a game breaking chore.

Again it was already proven that no carry limits and no merchant buying limits is good. It worked very well in previously and was well receive by EVERYONE. There was not a single voice saying this was bad and the reason is because it wasn't. It was by far the best decision for the game.

[Elhazzared]

Maybe with some extremely cheap items or extremely damaged items. but with how much you'll be forced to turn into repair kits and how many you can sell. You'll still have a huge surplus weighting you down none the less.

Underrail 2013 was by far the best Underrail. It's not simply about clinging to past, it's simply that the current Underrail is so intolerable that I just cannot bear to play it. It literally becomes a painful experience. To give you an example. There is nothing I hate more than being bored and since I am currently unemployed, free time is what I have in spades and literally nothing to play right now... Being bored the whole day still beats having to play Underrail in it's current state. That is how bad the carry limits and merchant limits affect me. It's completly and utherly unbearable.