Author Topic: Is it real to play in Ironman (permadeath) mode ?  (Read 8302 times)

Iguanodon

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Is it real to play in Ironman (permadeath) mode ?
« on: December 27, 2015, 02:56:26 pm »
 Lately I found the concept of free save/load discouraging, so I am willing to try my first v1.0 Underrail run in permadeath mode. I have my couple hours in ER, found the drill parts and probably little more.

 So what do you think, is it even possible?
Is Underrail designed with Ironman possibility in mind? Or randomness/ combat encounter design/ some plot traps will catch me no matter how careful I will be?
 
 What are your home rules about saving, if any?
If Ironman is impossible, I am thinking about saving in "home" only, SGS or other town down the plot stream.

Fenix

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Re: Is it real to play in Ironman (permadeath) mode ?
« Reply #1 on: December 27, 2015, 03:09:04 pm »
Everything is possible, but how much you'll need preparing and planning for this is a different question.

TΛPETRVE

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Re: Is it real to play in Ironman (permadeath) mode ?
« Reply #2 on: December 27, 2015, 03:59:00 pm »
It might be possible, but the game is definitely designed with ye olde savescummy-scurvy 1990s mentality in mind. It's very easy to die unexpectedly in a single hit, so unless you played through the entire game before at least once, and know both its mechanics and structure inside and out, I'd say you're not gonna last long.
But the problem is, indeed, it zlots at Vlurxtrznbnaxl.

Wildan

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Re: Is it real to play in Ironman (permadeath) mode ?
« Reply #3 on: December 27, 2015, 04:37:26 pm »
I played Underrail with permadeath rules exclusively ever since I started some two years ago. It deffinatelly is possible and very fun, but you indeed need to plan your build exactly from level 1 all the way till 25 as there is very little room for errors.

Generally builds with lots of health points and heavy armor last the longest. This is even more true for the hard difficulty as there is not only limited healing but also no 1.5 player health multiplier like on normal difficulty. Playing with squishy low constitution/glass cannon builds is possible too but when things go wrong (and they will sooner or later), like gettting stuned/cornered, you'll usually end up dead.

Playing on oddity vs classic makes the run quite easier as you level faster if you collect most of oddities. I don't do it though for my personal distaste for the oddity system.

One problem with the release version vs alpha is that the Psi Empathy feat now gives a 25% health penalty which for most non psi build is way too harsh. That's unfortunate because psi abilities with no skill check like force field, electrokinesis and cryostasis are incredibly powerful even with only 3 will.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2015, 04:39:23 pm by Wildan »

maxwar

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Re: Is it real to play in Ironman (permadeath) mode ?
« Reply #4 on: December 27, 2015, 04:52:01 pm »
I hope so :p
I tend to play games Ironman style. I find the concept of reloading after death to be fun breaking. Feel like cheating almost.

I am new to underrail and so far found that even though you play carefully, you will still often learn stuff the hard way in this gane.  Therefore I am allowing myself some leniency in the ironman style.
So far I made two practice games where I died a lot.  Reached level 8 on my second game.

I then started a new guy with a build that has survivability in mind.  ( lots of HP, lots of movement, resistance to stuns ) and so far doing A LOT better.
Level 9 now and still have not died.  Came close a few times but my guy is a tank.

The worse part in playing this game Ironman is fighting new types of ennemies for the first time. You often have no way of knowing how nasty they are before getting close and personal with them. 

Greep

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Re: Is it real to play in Ironman (permadeath) mode ?
« Reply #5 on: December 27, 2015, 07:54:21 pm »
I've ironmanned normal before release.  I think in a long story based game it's more fun to just see how few times you can die though.

Been playing hard, died about half a dozen times as a tank so far.  Mostly stupid deaths though, like dying to the rathound king without backup, not using drugs against a siphoner at level 5, trying Balor at level 11 as a tank, entering the arena too early, etc.

If you're annoyed at reloading too much, I would only save in one room of each town and call that your save point :)

Autosave only isn't a good idea as there are still a few gamebreaking bugs out there :/
« Last Edit: December 27, 2015, 07:57:59 pm by Greep »

Aralvar

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Re: Is it real to play in Ironman (permadeath) mode ?
« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2015, 09:40:27 pm »
I find the concept of reloading after death to be fun breaking. Feel like cheating almost.

Well, I'm sure glad the developers don't feel that way. How does it feel like cheating? A proper RPG that forces you to start over on every death after 15 hours would be terrible, it's not an arcade game. To each their own of course, but I'll probably never understand this. I feel like there would be an audience for a game that you had to re-buy every time you died for the ultimate difficulty, lol
« Last Edit: December 29, 2015, 11:12:05 pm by Aralvar »

Fenix

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Re: Is it real to play in Ironman (permadeath) mode ?
« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2015, 03:50:11 am »
you had to re-buy every time you died for the ultimate difficulty, lol

Shush! In case Bethesda might hear this.

Wildan

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Re: Is it real to play in Ironman (permadeath) mode ?
« Reply #8 on: December 30, 2015, 07:01:51 am »
How does it feel like cheating? A proper RPG that forces you to start over on every death after 15 hours would be terrible, it's not an arcade game.

Aracades were actually designed as the opposite of permadeath in mind. As money making machines most would encourage you at the "game over" screen to pop in another quarter and continue playing (and dying). Early home game system games on the other hand were all permadeath. You would start with 2-3 lives, could maybe earn a few more through the game but the fact remained that if you died too often it was over and you'd lose all your progress. There were also very linear, repettitive and often tough as hell. At some point game catridges started to come with built in batteries to allow you to save progress but not as means to cheat death, but to allow you to play through large games on more than one sitting. Savepoints were limited and often 2 hours or more apart. Only quite some time later when games allowed easy (quick)saving and reloading would it start to get abused as a cheat. Now people quickload at death and bad outcomes automatically even without thinking.

See my -1 karma point? A while ago I made a topic asking if anybody else played Underrail permadeath. Guy called me a dumb no-life with too much time and neg-repped me. It's funny how in modern day video game culture it became not only accepted but actually a norm to be immortal in a game. If you chose not to play this way and express your distaste you are likely to get mocked, sometimes even seen as a threat.
Fact remains, in most games today - you cannot die. Period. You either respawn or magically go back in time moments before shit happened. What character you play, how you play it, the choices you make, they don't really mean much because whatever you do there are no consequences and in the end you'll make it anyway even if you're a casual gamer (nothing wrong with it) that doesn't bother to learn the game mechanics.

Do I think that developers should force permanent death in games? Absolutely not. Playing permadeath is a matter of choice and everybody should play the game the way they want, it's none of my business, but I do encourge people to also consider this. If a player ever wondered why games are feeling less and less fun maybe it's not simply him getting older or games bland. Maybe it's the general deal that without death, life is meaningless - the same in a virtual as in the real world. I still believe that most people actually seek at least some challenge in the games, after all not many take easy as their default difficulty. Chosing to rely on frequent saving/reloading without any restricion kills a big, big chuck of challenge.

I think that developers should encourage people to at least try permadeath/ironman runs as an entirely optional mode, maybe even by giving a little bit of an incentive like 5% extra xp or something. For some reason gamers are far more likely to try it out if it's offered as an option and some might find it more appealing than they originally thought.

you had to re-buy every time you died for the ultimate difficulty, lol

Shush! In case Bethesda might hear this.


Aralvar

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Re: Is it real to play in Ironman (permadeath) mode ?
« Reply #9 on: December 30, 2015, 01:28:16 pm »
How does it feel like cheating? A proper RPG that forces you to start over on every death after 15 hours would be terrible, it's not an arcade game.
See my -1 karma point? A while ago I made a topic asking if anybody else played Underrail permadeath. Guy called me a dumb no-life with too much time and neg-repped me. It's funny how in modern day video game culture it became not only accepted but actually a norm to be immortal in a game. If you chose not to play this way and express your distaste you are likely to get mocked, sometimes even seen as a threat.
Fact remains, in most games today - you cannot die. Period. You either respawn or magically go back in time moments before shit happened. What character you play, how you play it, the choices you make, they don't really mean much because whatever you do there are no consequences and in the end you'll make it anyway even if you're a casual gamer (nothing wrong with it) that doesn't bother to learn the game mechanics.

If permadeath is optional, I have no problem with that. I just don't understand the concept of being able to save the game somehow makes it too easy. I like a game to be challenging, not punishing. Challenging, for me, is that I'll have to use different tactics, better equipment, and come back when I'm stronger to defeat the enemy. The challenge is that the game will not let you progress until you've bested it. Punishing is where a game forces you to start the game over when you die, meaning that I just played 15 hours of a video game to have it be all a waste of time. That just feels like work, it feels like the game is trying to emulate the consequences of real life actions too much and I feel like that defeats the purpose of playing a video game.

Again, I have no problem with it being optional, but the implication that I'm a casual or have no desire for challenge because I find it completely unappealing to lose all my character and game progress is somewhat insulting. Even if that wasn't the intention. This is the same thing I hear across the board from fans of permadeath, for MMORPGs they call you a care bear. I can imagine how you feel when someone ridicules you for your preference.

Greep

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Re: Is it real to play in Ironman (permadeath) mode ?
« Reply #10 on: December 31, 2015, 03:35:25 am »
Well, there's a few unfair points in underrail that make permadeath on your first run probably not a good idea.  For one, there's a few places where you'll be ambushed without the ability to stealth and assess the situation, some quite early like in GMS when going down to the 3rd floor.  Then there's arena, he warehouse, stealthed dagger enemies.

There's evelyn as well, who is actually do-able consistently if you know exactly what to do, but will just kill you otherwise.

So very first unspoilered shot will likely get you killed on easy even and wouldn't be very fun.  But mostly it's just the length of the game that makes permadeath not the best idea. 70+ hour story based game that you have to restart? Meh.