Various Suggestions

[n00bert]

- Reduce AP requirements for higher caliber weapons.  It requires almost three times the amount of time to pull a trigger on a .44 handgun than a 5mm?  Criticals and ammo reduction aside, what is the advantage of using a weapon with higher damage if the damage seems to scale almost directly with the amount of required action points?  The lower caliber weapons also have the advantage of being able to potentially spend remaining AP on a second target if the first is killed at the beginning of the combat round.

- Attacking out of stealth should automatically grant initiative to the player for the following combat round (at least with melee attacks - implementing this for ranged may have too great of an impact on overall tactics / balance).  Seems odd to land an attack on an unsuspecting victim out of stealth only to have that person turn around and gain first round combat initiative against the player.

- Percentages for close proximity non-melee attacks seem rather unrealistic.  Granted I'm only level 7 with 45 or so in guns at the moment, but I can stand on a square adjacent to an enemy with the barrel of my gun practically touching the guy, fire a burst and actually miss 5 out of 5 shots with an SMG.  It's as if half of the enemies in the game are tuned into The Matrix or something.  Seems like within a certain distance (3 squares or so) the probability should be weighted differently - something a little more realistic (with the advantage being offset by a higher probability to be hit in return of course).

- Add a separate slot for goggles (Granted you probably shouldn't be able to wear them over a full metal helmet, but goggles and a balaclava seems fairly reasonable).  I wouldn't consider something like this to be in opposition with the overall game direction of damage reduction vs nimbleness / perception.

- Double points allocated to crafting skills (or reduce skill requirements).  The crafting aspect of the game seems pretty cool, but I find that I'm having to dump all points into combat / lock picking / hacking / evasion to progress through the game at a difficultly level that I'm comfortable with.  Maybe crafting is intended to be more of an endgame activity, but right now it seems like I can either choose to live the mundane life of a tailor specializing in rat-skin jackets, or attempt to complete the quests in the game (slight exaggeration there).

Anyway, that's my two cents.  I'm sure there will be those that say NO, NO, NO! and that's fair enough, but I don't know... they seem like reasonable suggestions to me.   

[Toast]

Criticals and ammo reduction aside, what is the advantage of using a weapon with higher damage if the damage seems to scale almost directly with the amount of required action points?

Armor penetration. As the game progresses you will meet enemies with tougher armor and the ability to punch through it becomes important.

- Attacking out of stealth should automatically grant initiative to the player for the following combat round (at least with melee attacks - implementing this for ranged may have too great of an impact on overall tactics / balance).  Seems odd to land an attack on an unsuspecting victim out of stealth only to have that person turn around and gain first round combat initiative against the player.

Interesting suggestion. I see where you're coming from, but I also think that's what Cut-throat and the other melee perks that grant disables are for.

- Percentages for close proximity non-melee attacks seem rather unrealistic.

Don't worry, this will get better as you level your Guns skill/Perception. There are also weapon mods and night-vision goggles that help a lot. Bear in mind that if your enemy is standing in darkness, your hit percentage goes way down. You can throw a flare to help.

[Wildan]

Regarding the hitchance, show me your level 7 build and I will tell you if it's the game to blame.

[n00bert]

Regarding the hitchance, show me your level 7 build and I will tell you if it's the game to blame.

8 (9) Perception (wearing goggles) and 45 (64) Guns

What I'm trying to get at though is less of a discussion on character builds rather than just being a little more realistic.  The first time I went to a range and fired a 9mm at 15-20 or so ft I managed a fairly good grouping within a couple of inches from center target.   The target in game being around 5'10" tall and what, almost 2 feet wide(?) at a much closer range (literally about a ft away from the looks of it) and yet somehow I manage to completely miss five consecutive shots.  Tends to make the combat much less immersive for me...   

[n00bert]

Armor penetration. As the game progresses you will meet enemies with tougher armor and the ability to punch through it becomes important.

Ahh, I hadn't considered that.  Makes sense.  Still seems a little strange that it would take three times as long to aim / pull a trigger on a higher caliber handgun.  Rifles being an entirely different story.

[Wildan]

What I'm trying to get at though is less of a discussion on character builds rather than just being a little more realistic.

I see Underrail first and formost as a tactical rpg with focus on balanced combat gameplay. Chance to hit is not only affected by the distance but also by your guns skill vs defenders evasion skill (there are more factors like darkness etc. but this is the basis). "Dodging" bullets is by no means realistic but if no such mechanics were present then npcs too would be dead end accurate at short range and playing a melee character would be pointless.

Maybe you're not aware of it but burst fire has an accuracy penalty and that's for a good reason. You get 5 attacks for the cost of 3xAP (2xAP if you have the Spec Ops feat). Pair that with high dexterity, Expertise, burst feats, enchancements like rapid reloader, special ammo like micro sharpnell or incendiary rounds and you have a character with pretty much highest DPS possible. It's spray and pray, ofcourse you have to miss sometimes even if it's all 5+ rounds but it won't happen ALL the time, even against high evasion enemies. Nothing prevents you from using single fire shots when burst fire is not a good option. Also carry goggles with night vision as darkness penalty is not to be underestimated.
Perception has direct influence on your guns skill which in turn affects your chance to hit and the weapon damage. 8 perception is not terrible but it's not really good either. The difference to 10 is rather small at low levels but I don't see a reason to start below 10 even for a dex focused character.

[criosray]

Armor penetration. As the game progresses you will meet enemies with tougher armor and the ability to punch through it becomes important.

Ahh, I hadn't considered that.  Makes sense.  Still seems a little strange that it would take three times as long to aim / pull a trigger on a higher caliber handgun.  Rifles being an entirely different story.

Not so unrealistic tbh...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOD9UXBrNXA
vs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFoM8S3JwZU

What does seem unrealistic tho is a damage difference. .44 should hit like a truck and heavy armored targets should be knocked down with each hit. But this a video game and there should be balance, otherwise it would be too boring...

[phobos2077]

I agree about crafting. There are 4 skills to learn and to be of any use you need to put at least 60-80 points in each science field you want to use, while other skills (such as combat skills, traps, hacking & lockpicking) are useful even at relatively low levels.
Right now I see crafting only as a way to get rid of all those items you find. I wanted to craft better weapons, but I seem to always find better weapons on dead bodies. I wanted to learn electronics for shields, cloaking devices, etc., but now I see no reason to, because I just pick up those from bodies.

I think maybe selling prices for certain items such as weapons should be lowered. Don't lower amount of available items to sell, it is already extremely low! Just the prices, this way crafting may be more viable (as well as Mercantile for some builds).

[Wildan]

Right now I see crafting only as a way to get rid of all those items you find. I wanted to craft better weapons, but I seem to always find better weapons on dead bodies.

Rest assured that the quality of weapons you can loot doesn't even come close to the ones you can craft yourself, plus you get to choose what to craft and certain mods make more sense than others. Some craftables are also unique, meaning you will not ever loot them anywhere.

[UnLimiTeD]

In my experience crafting needs a little bit of specialization.
You can, f.Ex. craft great shield generators and psionics Gear that is otherwise unattainable, not just for that level.
Weapons are hard to get better than equivalent found weapons with extra perks you didn't put into crafting, but you can definitely get up to par, and it might make for additional options of better ammo efficiency.
How weapons work is obviously simplified, after all, Pistols use the same ammo as Rifles here.

[phobos2077]

Right now I see crafting only as a way to get rid of all those items you find. I wanted to craft better weapons, but I seem to always find better weapons on dead bodies.

Rest assured that the quality of weapons you can loot doesn't even come close to the ones you can craft yourself, plus you get to choose what to craft and certain mods make more sense than others. Some craftables are also unique, meaning you will not ever loot them anywhere.

A reply after I played to level 16. While I agree crafting works for some stuff like grenades, bolts (good 'nades and bolts are rarely found), it doesn't work so well for crossbows and guns. Somewhere in underpassages I have found a 12.7mm Harbinger sniper rifle that deals about 84-127 damage. After I advanced a lot in the game, I still can't find a sniper rifle frame with comparable quality. I've recently found Harbinger frame which requires 80 mechanics, but the final damage was something like 70-115, nowhere near the one I've found much earlier. The same experience I've had with a crossbow.
So in order to get some results from weapon crafting, you need to max Mechanics out very early, take Gun Nut and then prey to find decent weapon frame in the shops...

So, my suggestion for developers:
1) Reduce quality of lootable weapons so that crafted weapons can compete.
2) Maybe increase amount of weapon frames in some shops so that usable components will more likely be found by the player.

[player1]

IMHO, the power of crafting should not be in "superior items", but in versatility. Essentially, being able to craft what you need instead of what you find.

If player chooses to not use crating, but instead focues on different skills, it should not be gimped in "power level".

Unfortunately, crafting itself is also limited by what you find, just like looting.

[Toast]

I feel like you might just be having terrible luck? Playing through as a pistoleer/crafter, once I got past level 12 or so there was simply no way for the weapons I found to compete with what I could make. It's true I had to hunt a bit for the best quality frames, but MODS are what tip the balance. I never, ever found a pistol with the rapid reloader on it, let alone both the rapid reloader and the laser sight. Being able to fire my extra-accurate .44 three times a turn without taking Gunslinger is something I would never have been able to do without crafting, and that gave me FAR more offensive potential than a few extra base damage points from a higher quality frame.

Crafting is incredibly powerful, it just isn't explained well in the game itself. To get the most out of it you need to scour the wiki for what each component does precisely, figure out what configuration of mods is going to work with your build to give you the most advantage, AND be willing to do a lot of walking from vendor to vendor to find what you need. And some of those steps are tedious, but in the end, you will profit immeasurably from it. With that in mind, I'd support having vendors offer a greater variety of components, but *not* nerfing the quality of findable weapons. They are already less powerful in enough ways.

[phobos2077]

IMHO, the power of crafting should not be in "superior items", but in versatility. Essentially, being able to craft what you need instead of what you find.

If player chooses to not use crating, but instead focues on different skills, it should not be gimped in "power level".

I disagree. Crafting skills are expensive - every point in those makes your character less efficient in combat, or other skills. So it must affect "power level" one way or another.

I feel like you might just be having terrible luck? Playing through as a pistoleer/crafter, once I got past level 12 or so there was simply no way for the weapons I found to compete with what I could make. It's true I had to hunt a bit for the best quality frames, but MODS are what tip the balance. I never, ever found a pistol with the rapid reloader on it, let alone both the rapid reloader and the laser sight. Being able to fire my extra-accurate .44 three times a turn without taking Gunslinger is something I would never have been able to do without crafting, and that gave me FAR more offensive potential than a few extra base damage points from a higher quality frame.

I know what you mean. SMG's were also fine in my game, my problem is with snipers and crossbows. I dunno, it is luck or designed this way, but If you ever got "lucky" like me finding such super-weapon from a body of early game NPC and this happens to be your primary weapon - your crafting is screwed. No weapon mod will justify making new weapon that is 30% weaker...

[ShadowRun]

- Attacking out of stealth should automatically grant initiative to the player for the following combat round

Maybe this is implemented differently for firearms or has changed in a patch. The only means of killing things (even the hopper tissue sample) I've used is psionics because I find the arbitrary diversity of ammunition bewildering overkill. Rather than just "bullet" or "poisoned bullet" there's incompatibility between a 4791 bullet and this pistol or a 903 bullet and that sniper rifle. Maybe people with a military background get a thrill from the level of detail, but I think it's got quite carried away.

That being said, when I run v1.0.0.0 and stealth up to an NPC and keep an eye on their detection progress and whack the Enter key as soon as it turns orange or I'm in position, I always get initiative without fail, and can stun them and execute them at my leisure. Maybe this has been nerfed in a patch I haven't got. Or maybe you inadvertently Bump! into your target on your way to delivering a melee attack. Or maybe you are waiting too long to press Enter to engage turn based combat too late, once their detection progress has already turned red, in which case it's reasonable and fair that they get a chance to roll initiative against you.

- Add a separate slot for goggles

Given the focus on crafting in this thread, would it be enough for crafters to be able to build +crit, +night vision, +perception, etc. into the Visor of helmets or the Lens of goggles / balaclavas to make combinations that aren't ever looted (such as a Metal Helm of Nightvision, or a Black Balaclava of Special Attack Damage)? That could address two of your concerns.

- Double points allocated to crafting skills

If crafting skills had more synergy bonus to non-crafting skills, people might take them just to raise their non-crafting skills to 10-20% above the skillcap... and then find out that crafting is useful in its own right.

Edit: looks like the forum can't handle unicode characters.