[Endgame Spoilers] Events at Rail Crossing and how they affect the endgame

[Altos]

Hey there, Underrailers.

I read on the Steam forums recently that in order to become allied with the Faceless in DC, you must (among other things) let them kill Buzzer in his shop in Rail Crossing, and that if you persuade them to let him live after the mind-reading (even though it's really for their benefit) you cannot ever become allied with them later on, even if you didn't kill a single Faceless in Buzzer's shop, and thus cannot possibly bring Lora Baker back to SGS.
Now, I haven't tested this claim out for myself, but if this is true, that means the player is required to intentionally fail a quest in Rail Crossing (save buzzer) if they want to finish a quest (save the bakers) at the very end of the game, which to me seems like a pretty illogical requirement.

So I was wondering if Styg or one of the other devs could confirm or refute that you must let Buzzer die to be allied with the Faceless.

Thanks!

EDIT: Altered the title to be more appropriate to the nature of what is being spoiled here. Sorry, everyone! 

[Fenix]

Sir, name of your topic is quite misleading.
I thought it's about Buzzer and Faceless in Rail Crossing, but in truth this is FUCKING HUGE spoiler about end-game.
Please change the title before anyone else got spoiled.

[MichaelBurge]

My understanding of the DC Faceless' dialog is as follows:

* Start with 0 attitude points
* Add 1 point if you finished the Faceless recon mission near Foundry, unless the Faceless near Foundry are at war with you
* Add 1 point if you did not kill the Faceless mindreader in Buzzer's shop, unless the Faceless near Buzzer's shop are at war with you
* Add 1 point if you released the captured Faceless in the Black Crawlers' hideout, did not drop him, and did not attack him
* Remove 1 point if the Faceless group in Buzzer's shop are at war with you(for example, if you attacked them)
* Set the points to -5 if you released the Black Crawler Faceless and then attacked him
* Set the points to -5 if you killed the Black Crawler Faceless by dropping him
* Set the points to -5 if the Faceless group near Foundry are at war with you(for example, if you attacked them)

The dialog files themselves are kind of annoying to read by hand, so you should distrust this next part. But I think I see checks for:
* If the attitude points != 3, then something
* If the attitude points > 0, then something
* If the attitude points > 1, then something
* If the attitude points > 3, then something(this might refer to negative numbers? Or there might be one other way to get a +1 point to attitude that I didn't catch)

If you unpack your save file, the bytes immediately to the right of 'loc_dc_flo_attitudeCalculation' should have the value of the attitude points above after you talk to the commander.

In other words, I don't see a direct reference to checking whether Buzzer was allowed to die. It's possible that saving him marks those Faceless as being at war with you, in a manner that escaped my casual inspection, which would have the same effect.

[ugo]

there is a bug  , that after you saved buzzer and tell tanner about that device in the first conversation ,tanner will forget to give you 500 cash reward.

[Altos]

My understanding of the DC Faceless' dialog is as follows:

* Start with 0 attitude points
* Add 1 point if you finished the Faceless recon mission near Foundry, unless the Faceless near Foundry are at war with you
* Add 1 point if you did not kill the Faceless mindreader in Buzzer's shop, unless the Faceless near Buzzer's shop are at war with you
* Add 1 point if you released the captured Faceless in the Black Crawlers' hideout, did not drop him, and did not attack him
* Remove 1 point if the Faceless group in Buzzer's shop are at war with you(for example, if you attacked them)
* Set the points to -5 if you released the Black Crawler Faceless and then attacked him
* Set the points to -5 if you killed the Black Crawler Faceless by dropping him
* Set the points to -5 if the Faceless group near Foundry are at war with you(for example, if you attacked them)

The dialog files themselves are kind of annoying to read by hand, so you should distrust this next part. But I think I see checks for:
* If the attitude points != 3, then something
* If the attitude points > 0, then something
* If the attitude points > 1, then something
* If the attitude points > 3, then something(this might refer to negative numbers? Or there might be one other way to get a +1 point to attitude that I didn't catch)

If you unpack your save file, the bytes immediately to the right of 'loc_dc_flo_attitudeCalculation' should have the value of the attitude points above after you talk to the commander.

In other words, I don't see a direct reference to checking whether Buzzer was allowed to die. It's possible that saving him marks those Faceless as being at war with you, in a manner that escaped my casual inspection, which would have the same effect.

Wow! This is super helpful! Thank you so much!

Now I'm curious, though, what the players on the steam forums were doing differently that would have made it seem like persuading the Faceless was a negative decision.

Regardless, this attitude system makes a lot of sense and is incredibly useful! Thanks again!

[TΛPETRVE]

Does frying their plasma walkers count as a negative?

[fallander]

I have a question about the ending too. It's not necessarily related to the topic but well... I was just wondering if the game offers you possibility to play more after ending the main scenario (for example Fallout 2 was giving you that kind of choice ), or the end is definitive...? Btw. sorry for my English

[Lightzy]

I also want to ask if disabling the walkers/robots at crossing makes you unable to ally with the faceless.

It'd be pretty fu** up design i have to say. I'd say that a normal person doing a first run of the game has NO CHANCE IN HELL of friending the faceless, who normally attack on sight, much like azuridaes or any other enemy in the game that you can never friend.


So, disabling the walkers/robots at crossing makes you unable to ally with the faceless  -  true or false?

Has anyone allied with the faceless? did you disable the robots or let buzzer live?

[Toast]

So, disabling the walkers/robots at crossing makes you unable to ally with the faceless  -  true or false?

False. The gist of it is as MichaelBurge said. Buzzer's death is also avoidable.

Epeli, you have a very thorough knowledge of the game, can you tell me why I am not able to ally with the Faceless when according to MichaelBurge's investigations I should be able to? Here's an entire history of my interactions with them:

--disabled the plasma sentries, snuck into Buzzer's shop, let them read my mind, convinced them to leave and spare Buzzer
--helped them in Foundry by honestly telling them everything I knew, they left peacefully and thanked me
--saved the guy in Core City, gave him a high quality health hypo
--dude showed up at the Institute to warn me to leave, I attempted to do so but the game doesn't continue unless you go and squeal to Eidein, sigh
--sat there twiddling my thumbs and doing nothing at all while the Faceless and Tchortists fought each other, then bravely ran away on the elevator

In essence I did every single thing possible to help them and nothing to harm them, ever, yet they still tell me I am "not an ally." Unless disabling the plasma sentries or using Persuasion to save Buzzer have some negative effect, there is no way they should be neutral to me. I just can't figure it out, and it's frustrating as hell.

[Zetor]

So, disabling the walkers/robots at crossing makes you unable to ally with the faceless  -  true or false?

False. The gist of it is as MichaelBurge said. Buzzer's death is also avoidable.

Epeli, you have a very thorough knowledge of the game, can you tell me why I am not able to ally with the Faceless when according to MichaelBurge's investigations I should be able to? Here's an entire history of my interactions with them:

--disabled the plasma sentries, snuck into Buzzer's shop, let them read my mind, convinced them to leave and spare Buzzer
--helped them in Foundry by honestly telling them everything I knew, they left peacefully and thanked me
--saved the guy in Core City, gave him a high quality health hypo
--dude showed up at the Institute to warn me, I attempted to do so but the game doesn't continue unless you go and squeal to Eidein, sigh
--sat there twiddling my thumbs and doing nothing at all while the Faceless and Tchortists fought each other, then bravely ran away on the elevator

In essence I did every single thing possible to help them and nothing to harm them, ever, yet they still tell me I am "not an ally." Unless disabling the plasma sentries or using Persuasion to save Buzzer have some negative effect, there is no way they should be neutral to me. I just can't figure it out, and it's frustrating as hell.

I did the exact same things with the only difference being that I let them kill Buzzer and didn't touch any of the plasma sentries (I did have to kill the kamikaze bots though, thx truesight) and I got a friendly result.

The original steam thread had a guy reporting that he did a replay where the only thing he did differently was let them kill Buzzer and it got him the friendly ending -- I believe that's what got people on the steam forums thinking that saving Buzzer and/or messing with the sentries locks you out of the friendly ending. Not sure if it's a bug or intended, so 'official' word would probably be very welcome.

e: discussion starts here. There are at least 2 other threads on the first page of the steam forums discussing this same question now, I think... so yea, it's a Hot Topic(tm)

[Toast]

I did the exact same things with the only difference being that I let them kill Buzzer and didn't touch any of the plasma sentries (I did have to kill the kamikaze bots though, thx truesight) and I got a friendly result.

The original steam thread had a guy reporting that he did a replay where the only thing he did differently was let them kill Buzzer and it got him the friendly ending -- I believe that's what got people on the steam forums thinking that saving Buzzer and/or messing with the sentries locks you out of the friendly ending. Not sure if it's a bug or intended, so 'official' word would probably be very welcome.

e: discussion starts here. There are at least 2 other threads on the first page of the steam forums discussing this same question now, I think... so yea, it's a Hot Topic(tm)

Oh indeed, I am very familiar with those threads as I kept going back to them hoping they would figure out what I did wrong! But if "letting the Faceless kill Buzzer" is really the missing magic ingredient here, I think it's a poor and nonsensical design choice. It forces the player to intentionally fail a quest if they want a good result for something else they (if a first-time player) aren't even aware of yet. As you say, official clarification would be very welcome, and frankly I am hoping it's a bug.

[Lightzy]

Please ask the game dev.
This is one of the more annoying things I think. Giving you no indication of what you're supposed to do in order to get a good ending, and even making you fail quests intentionally?
This has to be a bug, it can't be by design.

Also, someone on the steam forum again said that you have to let them kill buzzer...


Please have a dev clarify. I'm unwilling to play the game right now because frankly I don't feel like restarting because of the one stupid little thing I did wrong which every intuition tells you is the right thing (succeed quests, do it by using a skill that you invested a lot in).

Please ask the dev specifically about disabling the walkers and about buzzer

[Tygrende]

I disabled the robots at Rail Crossing, persuaded the Mind Reader to let Buzzer live, helped the group near Foundry by telling them all the truth and only the truth, saved the caged Faceless and gave him an advanced health hypo.

Never killed a single one, not even during the elevator fight.

Once I got to the Deep Caverns, their Commander gave me permission to roam as I please but refused to answer any questions or walk into any of their buildings, including the one with Lora, so I'm assuming they were neutral to me.

Sounds like it really is a bug. And it sucks, since I did save the Buzzer again on my 2nd playthrough, unaware that you can actually get a better reaction from them, and I really don't feel like restarting now.

[player1]

Now the question is what actually affects friendliness with Faceless.

Is it sacrificing Buzzer, or maybe not disabling plasma walkers?

Or maybe both?


While disabling plasma walkers could be considered an hostile act (and they do know it is you, due to mind read), it would be really weird is saving Buzzer has such effect. Even mind reader says that they can always revise the decision.

[Tygrende]

To me it sounds like a bug where "saving Buzzer by passing a persuasion check" is by mistake equal to "saving Buzzer by killing the Mind Reader", but I cannot be sure.