Ironman Mode/Achievement

[scazzy]

Hey,

Fairly simple and self explanatory concept. I would love to see an Ironman mode (or equivalent steam achievement) for Underrail.

Underrail has one of the most comprehensive and well developed game mechanics of any RPG I've played. Reward those who take the time to fully master and explore it.

[TΛPETRVE]

I doubt the current balancing makes a no-death run even possible, unless you play on easy and avoid combat as much as in any way possible .

[Tygrende]

It's very much possible with enough planning, even on hard.

[TΛPETRVE]

Exploiting the system really shouldn't be the prime way to do it, though .

[player1]

The game is balanced with save-scumming in mind, and as such would be infuriating to play in ironman mode.

So many ways to one hit kill the player... And in many cases in mercy of the random generator.

[Wildan]

I can't really say dev encourage save-scumming but Underrail is for sure not meant for ironman gameplay.
Yet I ONLY played permadeath (ironman) in Underrail. I managed to complete the latest alpha but we only had normal difficulty back then, Oddity XP system was way to generous and some builds were totally op like Electroshock pistol or pure psionics. In release version I made it several times into DC but I'm having a difficult time surviving, even with a 10 CON/Thick Skull character. You can be the best strategist and play with optimal builds, shit will still happen and it usually costs life late game.

As for the ironman achievement. I don't see a way for the game to make sure you still didn't "cheat" and reloaded because things went wrong or because you missed too many times. It's not just about dying, it's about accepting ALL consequences.

I don't care for such achievements at all or if ironman is even built in as a mode. If you need the game engine to force it on you than ironman (I prefer the term permadeath) is simply not for you.

[player1]

No, it is not.

But it is!

Very powerful effects that can make or brake the battle happen on random dice, like various disabling attacks, special sniper attacks from afar, etc... And most of them do not have proper counter that can be used by most of the character builds (only some specialized builds can get protected from some of the effects).

Game is very very very offense driven in this regard and with kind of the options that are available to the player.

This leads to battles that can be both easy wins and easy losses at the same time. Usually, initiative check and luckily roll will determine what kind of battle it will be.

This is additionally amplified with game focusing only on single character vs many characters. If it was game played with companions this effect would be greatly diminished.


Personally I do not mind. I am determined to win, using all options given to the player, including save scumming.

[TΛPETRVE]

The game is balanced towards fast-paced combat that emphasises criticals and damage-per-hit ratio to get rid of the drawn-out chipping orgies Fallout was infamous for. The need for savescumming is an unfortunate side effect.

[Tygrende]

But it is!

It's not.

Very powerful effects that can make or brake the battle happen on random dice, like various disabling attacks

Stuns/incapacitations can be mitigated by either:

Passing a Fortitude roll (high CON builds)

Thick Skull feat (at least 10 CON builds)

Locus of Control feat (Psi builds)

Bullhead pills (builds with at least 80 Biology skill)

Acting first before anyone can stun/incapacite you (either stealth or high initiative builds)

Sucking it up and surviving the duration (tanky builds)

Shaded visors (only flashbangs)

special sniper attacks from afar, etc...

Besides the fact such situation happens maybe twice/thrice in the whole game (Lurkers base and Warehouse mission) , can be mitigated by either:
High HP pool (high CON builds)

Tactical vests with ceramic plates or metal armors (tanky builds, but any build can equip one)

Amplified high frequency  energy shields (any build, but those with electronics especially)

Acting first before Sniper gets to fire a shot (either stealth or high initiative builds)

And most of them do not have proper counter that can be used by most of the character builds (only some specialized builds can get protected from some of the effects).

I just listed 7 counters for stuns/incapacitations that work with a wide variety of builds, and 4 counters to Snipers, 2 of which will work on any build.

Every build needs some kind of defense against everything. If it doesn't have it, it's just a bad and unreliable build that was made with savescumming in mind. Don't blame the game, blame the player.

Game is very very very offense driven in this regard and with kind of the options that are available to the player.

Player has a lot of options to choose from, a lot more than any enemy in the game.

This leads to battles that can be both easy wins and easy losses at the same time. Usually, initiative check and luckily roll will determine what kind of battle it will be.

Invest in DEX/AGI to have very high initiative then, luck factor will be reduced considerably. If you fail, have a plan B and even C.

Or use stealth to start (almost) every battle on your own terms. If you fail, have a plan B and even C.

Or be tanky enough to survive the first turn no matter what.

See, it's all about planning your build so it can deal with every situation.

This is additionally amplified with game focusing only on single character vs many characters. If it was game played with companions this effect would be greatly diminished.

On the contrary, enemies don't get any preparation time, nor do they have optimized builds (well, Carnifex kinda does) or human intelligence.

I would say the player has a huge advantage.

Personally I do not mind. I am determined to win, using all options given to the player, including save scumming.

No, you just made a build that has to rely on savescumming to get by.

Nothing wrong with that, but you are resposible for it, not the game itself. No one is saying that Ironman Mode would be possible with all builds, it's pretty obvious it's only for those that  rely on luck as little as possible or even not at all.

[scazzy]

I can't really say dev encourage save-scumming but Underrail is for sure not meant for ironman gameplay.
Yet I ONLY played permadeath (ironman) in Underrail. I managed to complete the latest alpha but we only had normal difficulty back then, Oddity XP system was way to generous and some builds were totally op like Electroshock pistol or pure psionics. In release version I made it several times into DC but I'm having a difficult time surviving, even with a 10 CON/Thick Skull character. You can be the best strategist and play with optimal builds, shit will still happen and it usually costs life late game.

As for the ironman achievement. I don't see a way for the game to make sure you still didn't "cheat" and reloaded because things went wrong or because you missed too many times. It's not just about dying, it's about accepting ALL consequences.

I don't care for such achievements at all or if ironman is even built in as a mode. If you need the game engine to force it on you than ironman (I prefer the term permadeath) is simply not for you.

I don't need the game engine to force me to play Ironman. I'm currently in the process of doing one now. I said reward those who master the game mechanics, not prompt those who need incentivisation.

As for implementing the game mode, I can't imagine its excessively challenging. It's one save file that autosaves on quit and can only be loaded from the menu. I recently played through Pillars of Eternity and Wasteland 2 (Dir Ed) and both are are good examples of a properly implemented Ironman mode system.

[ShadowRun]

I said reward those who master the game mechanics,

So far people have been discussing "Ironman" as if it meant "not dying". Is that what you meant? In the original post where you gave a name but no definition, it sounded to me as if your "Ironman" reward was awarded for exploration:

Underrail has one of the most comprehensive and well developed game mechanics of any RPG I've played. Reward those who take the time to fully master and explore it.

I haven't played Steam achievements.

Just for the sake of clarity, satisfying what criterion (or criteria) would award this "Ironman" status in UnderRail?

[scazzy]

I said reward those who master the game mechanics,

So far people have been discussing "Ironman" as if it meant "not dying". Is that what you meant? In the original post where you gave a name but no definition, it sounded to me as if your "Ironman" reward was awarded for exploration:

Underrail has one of the most comprehensive and well developed game mechanics of any RPG I've played. Reward those who take the time to fully master and explore it.

I haven't played Steam achievements.

Just for the sake of clarity, satisfying what criterion (or criteria) would award this "Ironman" status in UnderRail?

Ironman means you play from one save file which cannot be reloaded. If you are killed the run is effective over. When I say "reward those who take time to master and fully explore it," I am referring to a player needing a comprehensive knowledge of the game mechanics. Without this understanding, it would be very difficult to successfully complete the game in Ironman. Especially in a game like Underrail with complex and difficult combat scenarios.

Other games which offer an Ironman system which you can use as a basis for comparison are (off the top of my head) Wasteland 2, Pillars of Eternity, Xenonauts, Europa Universalis 4 etc etc

[ShadowRun]

Ah yes - "Hardcore" mode in Diablo. Good good.

[UnLimiTeD]

....

Not going to principally disagree here, as I haven't given the matter that much thought, nor do I care either way, but you just listed a bunch of solutions that are more or less the same.
F.ex. the same problem can be solved by
1. Having high CON
2. Having a feat that requires high CON
6. Having high Hitpoints (and thus high CON, as that's about it when it comes to actually being "tanky". Shields only get you so far.)
Similarly, having high stealth makes it hard to fulfill the above options. There is the niche of an evasion character with strong shields, but that still relies on chance.
Essentially, to have a sure chance to not die of random dice (well, 99% chance, it can always happen), you need high con, high stealth, and good initiative.
That's actually damn hard to do.

Still, I wouldn't go as far as saying a game is built around savescumming only because there are mechanics that may, in certain situations, result in a death that is very hard to avoid. Because that is most games.

[Tygrende]

I'm not saying you need all of them. I just listed all the possible counters, one or two is usually enough.

80 biology is doable on every build, and it takes care of stuns/incapacitations as long as you remember to take a pill before every fight unless you are 100% sure there will be no stuns/incapacitations involved, or that you can kill the enemy before he gets a chance to apply them.

Amplifed energy shield and anti rifle tac vest is also doable on every build. 65% penalty hurts on stealth builds and amplifed shields are pretty bad overall, buy  and you can equip them both just once or twice and be done with them.

Also, high HP pool doesn't necessarily means you need high CON. It can also be achieved by having high level and using sturdy vests. You need hogih CON only if you want to have one of the highest pools possible. My 5 CON build had 350+ hit points at level 25, and fights that require such a big pool are usually optional and you can pick them when you want. Hell my 5 CON char was able to tank Carnifex 1st turn after failing initative check.

So as you can see, almost every build can achieve good defense against everything. Of course tanks are going to be better at that, but you can manage with somewhat glassy builds as well.

That's actually damn hard to do.

Well that's the point of Ironman runs, isn't it?