Deep Caves & Final Battle re-design suggestions.

[MaxEd]

A lot of players, including me, dislike DC and Tchort battle. For me, the whole location and the final combat feel unfinished, like there was supposed to be more content there, but it was cut. Another big problem, is that a build that was viable for the rest of the game may fail miserably in DC, and especially in the final battle.

So, I think Deep Caves and Tchort should be re-designed. Mind you, that does not mean "dumbed down". But consider the final combat: it seems that most players either can't beat it, or one-short Tchort, depending on their build! There is little middle ground, where fighting Tchort is hard, but enjoyable problem that depends on tactical skill and thinking, or maybe just hard work.

Here's what I would propose to do to fix problems with DC:

1) Clarify threat Tchort poses to Underrail. Six doesn't explain anything, and neither do Faceless or computer logs. They describe how the current situation in Deep Caves came to be, but after reading all materials I could find, I still do not understand why should I believe Six that I need to destroy Tchort, or what exact danger it poses. Until its own dialogue about eating souls, for all my character knows, Tchort might eat evil and defecate rainbows!

2) Add a way to make Faceless friendly even if you didn't done right by them before. After meeting with Six, your goal of destroying Tchort coincide with theirs. They should be able to put past animosity aside, after you prove yourself to them.

3) Add some dynamics to Tchortists/Faceless. Currently, both factions are nearly completely inert and exist mostly as decorations (if you befriend Faceless). Faceless do not even react to opening of gates to Tchort!

4) Trader should sell rifle barrels. It's laughable when you have a high-quality weapon frame, but no barrel in ANY of shelves! Also, maybe allow trade with Faceless for electronics?

5) Let player use either faction for the final battle:
    a) For Faceless, help them wipe out Tchortists camp. Then, help them find a (very limited) number of devices that would let them withstand Tchort's psi-curses. Then, a (small) squad of Faceless will join you as meat shields during the final confrontation.
   
    b) For Tchortists, help them drive out Faceless somehow (maybe an explosion at Arke Power Plant to collapse their caves?), then lead an attack on surviving Faceless. Then, help interrogate a prisoner, who tells them all about Tchort, how it is not a god, but an abomination. Faction leader kills prisoner, but a small number of Tchortists lose their religion and join you as meat shields during the final confrontation.
   
    c) For players with very high Persuasion (or/AND Intimidation!), allow an options where BOTH factions help you, after you complete some very hard quest (possibly related to Monolith in worm caves)
   
6) Change location of final battle. Access to Mutagen tanks should be A BIT easier for non-stealth builds.
   Other option: make every destroyed mutagen tank also lower respawn rate of Tchortlings, or switch off one of their types (one tank - no more Devourers, two tanks - no Sowers, three tanks - no Scanners, for example)
   Other option: allow player to use Bio-gas grenades to stop Tentacles from respawning even without destroying mutagen tanks (for example, Tentacle will not respawn IF KILLED by damage from Gas; or Tentacle will no respawn while gas is around its death places).
   Other option: at least, add a hiding place near north-east mutagen tank. Currently, it's the hardest one to destroy.
   Other option: make tentacles always miss a turn when they move (currently, it seems to be random). It will make getting around the map a TINY bit easier, maybe saving some players.

After implementing such options, it is possible to make Tchort itself, or its tentacles a bit harder, though I don't think it would be necessary, but only playtesting will show.
   
Overall, for the design of the final battle, I urge developers to look to boss fight in Geneforge 5. It's quite similar, but way less unbalanced!

[chimaera]

The biggest problem I have with the tchort battle is that it basically comes down to whether you can deal enough damage to a stationary, damage resistant, regenerating HP-sponge. And if you want to reduce its regeneration rate, then you need to destroy four stationary, damage resistant HP-sponges. In retrospect, it really does look like this battle was designed with all those "insanely high damage in one hit" characters in mind.

By comparison, my favorite deep caverns encounter was the faceless camp: here you have a group of enemies with a variety of skills and weapons, capable of delivering a fast-paced and tough fight without resorting to HP-bloat. Battling tchort on the other hand was as exciting as watching your character chip away at a bunch of rocks.

[TΛPETRVE]

As I said over at the steam fora, Tchort does actually not pose much of a threat to Underrail at all. He's essentially just a large nuisance, both from a gameplay and story perspective, and destroying that ugly blob is really just a means to an end. That in itself could of course be communicated better, but from the decidedly matter-of-fact way the entire section is written, and the very much nihilistic implications of what is revealed, I think Styg didn't exactly aim for a feeling of satisfaction for the player.

I'd argue that the two possible endings (taking over the lead in SGS, or travelling after Six to North Underrail) are quite similar to the light and the dark ending in Dark Souls; you have a choice between either mercifully investing yourself into a collapsing society that isn't worth saving (although in this case it doesn't involve self-immolation), or saying "fuck those meatbags" to walk off and do your own shit.

[chimaera]

The problem isn't whether it is satisfying for the player to beat tchort or not, but what motivates the player and what motivates the character (which are two separate questions) to even finish deep caverns? Because in my opinion, deep caverns fail to deliver on both accounts.

If tchort doesn't threaten Underrail, that's fine, I don't actually like the usual "save the world from the big bad" stories. But all your character gets in deep caverns is some pseudo-mystical "because I tell you so" from a very annoying NPC. There isn't even a sense of fighting for survival - which could be motivation enough - because tchort doesn't threaten your character, it's just sitting behind a gate. If anything, deep caverns feel stagnant. The faceless and tchortists are supposedly at war, yet they just sit in their camps doing nothing, while you travel back and forth gathering equipment necessary to open the gate.

But why would your character care about confronting tchort anyway? That you can leave deep caverns only after you kill tchort, because otherwise your genius-at-mechanics character can't repair the lift is not really good motivation. If anything, I would call it a meta-gaming reason. And what about the motivation for the player? The majority of encounters aren't dangerous, there are just tedious, regardless of whether you choose to fight the monsters or avoid them. There is no satisfaction in finishing a series of boring tasks. The interesting parts of deep caverns (power plant battle, faceless camp, scientist backstory, mutagen puzzle) are too few to overcome the bad impression.

[MaxEd]

But why would your character care about confronting tchort anyway? That you can leave deep caverns only after you kill tchort, because otherwise your genius-at-mechanics character can't repair the lift is not really good motivation. If anything, I would call it a meta-gaming reason.

Exactly that. Just from thinking a few minutes, I can think of a few alternatives for my character. Like, steal a Tuneller and return to Underrail in it. Or kill all Tchortists and use their elevator (after persuading Faceless to restore power to it, if it is even down, because it doesn't seem to be unpowered to me!).

More than that, my character can't even QUESTION Six. Like, give me an option to say "You crazy maniac, I won't go around killing creatures I know nothing about just because on your say-so!". The game before DC, it was fairly logical. There always was explanation, and I never felt like a "Choosen One". I was just another mercenery in Underrail, doing some work for Supersteel coins. Suddenly, I AM a "Choosen One", or at least damned Six tells me something to that effect, that he "feels" I must destroy Tchort. Stop right there, pal, right now I want to destroy you, not Tchort, or at very least tell you to go to hell...

I felt ejected from game-world into primary world. It's exactly a thing I should NOT feel.

The biggest problem I have with the tchort battle is that it basically comes down to whether you can deal enough damage to a stationary, damage resistant, regenerating HP-sponge. And if you want to reduce its regeneration rate, then you need to destroy four stationary, damage resistant HP-sponges. In retrospect, it really does look like this battle was designed with all those "insanely high damage in one hit" characters in mind.

Well, Mutagen Tanks aren't THAT bad. Even with my unsuitable build (2-school Psi + non-stealth Sniper), I managed to take 3 out of 4. If only the last one was accessible... After that, I could destroy Tentacles one-by-one, and then concentrate on Tchort, without regeneration. It wouldn't be an easy battle, but it would work and it would feel satisfying.

[Tolstoi]

But why would your character care about confronting tchort anyway? That you can leave deep caverns only after you kill tchort, because otherwise your genius-at-mechanics character can't repair the lift is not really good motivation. If anything, I would call it a meta-gaming reason.

Exactly that. Just from thinking a few minutes, I can think of a few alternatives for my character. Like, steal a Tuneller and return to Underrail in it. Or kill all Tchortists and use their elevator (after persuading Faceless to restore power to it, if it is even down, because it doesn't seem to be unpowered to me!).

I'm suddenly forced to wonder why you couldn't just burrow around that damn gate rather than have to go through all the pointless annoyances to get it working. If that cube is so important, and if you're friendly with them, I don't see why they couldn't fix up that abandoned tunneler in the Hollow Earth section and point it at the wall for you. Surely that's a good trade? Not like anyone who lived to get that far couldn't solo all of Cytosine Outpost if they'd be worried about losing manpower beforehand.

Personally, I'd have liked to have the option for a Tchortist ending, rather than having to side with the Faceless de facto. What they preach isn't exactly congruent to what they do, but I could see it in an 'ends justify the means' sense. Or for more mercenary reasons, enemy you know over the one you don't et cetera. Having the two factions be more important/useful would certainly be nice in addition, I agree with the OP on that point. The Faceless drop some very intriguing info on you, but the Tchortists don't really have much of interest to say in return. Even if the ending doesn't change, which I admit would likely be very time consuming to do, I wouldn't mind knowing more about their operations in the Deep Caverns and other relevant things.

As far as Six goes: It kind of felt like a big bait-and-switch, at least if you didn't get into Oculus. I don't really mind that, but I would have enjoyed getting to know a little more before the cliffhanger ending.

Those are my thoughts on the ending, anyway. I thought the battle itself was pretty challenging, but I was hardly running an optimized build. I don't have a lot to say about it other than that.

[chimaera]

But why would your character care about confronting tchort anyway? That you can leave deep caverns only after you kill tchort, because otherwise your genius-at-mechanics character can't repair the lift is not really good motivation. If anything, I would call it a meta-gaming reason.

Exactly that. Just from thinking a few minutes, I can think of a few alternatives for my character. Like, steal a Tuneller and return to Underrail in it. Or kill all Tchortists and use their elevator (after persuading Faceless to restore power to it, if it is even down, because it doesn't seem to be unpowered to me!).

I'm suddenly forced to wonder why you couldn't just burrow around that damn gate rather than have to go through all the pointless annoyances to get it working. If that cube is so important, and if you're friendly with them, I don't see why they couldn't fix up that abandoned tunneler in the Hollow Earth section and point it at the wall for you. Surely that's a good trade? Not like anyone who lived to get that far couldn't solo all of Cytosine Outpost if they'd be worried about losing manpower beforehand.

I think that sums up the biggest problem with the plot: lack of choices towards the end. Not even to abandon the main quest. There is a free adventure/RPG game called Hereoine's Quest, where your heroine can choose to do exactly that - just leave, which immediately finishes the game (the bad guy wins and the world ends). Maybe not a happy ending, but the option is there. (and then there is also another, hidden bad ending  )

Considering that tchort doesn't even actively threaten Underrail, your character could leave deep caverns without killing him (if that were a possibility in the game). All that would require would be another exit route and a few more ending slides, telling what happens if tchort lives.

[MaxEd]

Considering that tchort doesn't even actively threaten Underrail, your character could leave deep caverns without killing him (if that were a possibility in the game). All that would require would be another exit route and a few more ending slides, telling what happens if tchort lives.

There was such a choice in Eschalon: Book I at the very end. You could either surrender a powerful artefact to an orc chieftain, or fight him. If you chose not to fight, the ending told you that your character soon left for another land, and though he's seen glimmer of flames over regions where orcs ruled, it wasn't his concern... for now. Or something like that.

With Tchort, I guess we would see more Tchortist activity, especially from their military and propaganda. Maybe some strange creatures. In years to come, reconstructed Institute would become a beacon for those dissatisfied with both Protectorate and Free Drones - as long as they would be willing to accept eugenics agenda of Tchortists and pass the test. Inside Deep Cavers, Tchort would grow ever more powerful, but still unable to directly influence events in upper parts of Underrail, for the time being.

[Papa Stink]

This is an old topic but I think these ideas are really good. I just beat underrail and I agree with alot of these suggestions. The last part of the main story is the only part that almost made me stop playing. Get rid of the whole faceless mind reading and points thing and replace it with this.

5) Let player use either faction for the final battle:
    a) For Faceless, help them wipe out Tchortists camp. Then, help them find a (very limited) number of devices that would let them withstand Tchort's psi-curses. Then, a (small) squad of Faceless will join you as meat shields during the final confrontation.
   
    b) For Tchortists, help them drive out Faceless somehow (maybe an explosion at Arke Power Plant to collapse their caves?), then lead an attack on surviving Faceless. Then, help interrogate a prisoner, who tells them all about Tchort, how it is not a god, but an abomination. Faction leader kills prisoner, but a small number of Tchortists lose their religion and join you as meat shields during the final confrontation.
   
    c) For players with very high Persuasion (or/AND Intimidation!), allow an options where BOTH factions help you, after you complete some very hard quest (possibly related to Monolith in worm caves)

And plot elements like

1) Clarify threat Tchort poses to Underrail. Six doesn't explain anything, and neither do Faceless or computer logs. They describe how the current situation in Deep Caves came to be, but after reading all materials I could find, I still do not understand why should I believe Six that I need to destroy Tchort, or what exact danger it poses. Until its own dialogue about eating souls, for all my character knows, Tchort might eat evil and defecate rainbows!

And also:

1. Get rid of the randomly spawning Tchortlings and have them be preplaced like dungeon enemies with only one scanner in certain areas.

2. Make the quantity scanners smaller. Like I siad before, only have them in certain areas of the map and only have one.

3. Reduce the damage done by scanners by three or four.

4. And have multiple merchants for both outposts.

I hope this thread is noticed by the devs, I can't see myself recommending or even returning to this game when the deep caverns are so full of artificial difficulty.

[brobotics]

Six's vagueness in Tchort is intentional and makes finding clues about it elsewhere enjoyable. It sounds like you guys want Six to come out and explain everything to you in detail upon reaching Deep Caverns, but I think that would totally destroy the fun of piecing it together yourself.

Even the Faceless Commander doesnt have all the answers and has a hard time comprehending Tchort. Six has a working understanding of Tchort, but like Azif, does not want to influence your interpretation too heavily.

Yeah, I get it, its a technique to leave possibilities open for future expansions, but the Tchort lore has been pretty fleshed out after Expedition. We know way more about Leviathans and Biocorp mutagen that we did pre-Expedition.

Styg has said UnderRail is a game that expects the player to pay close attention. I think that design philosophy goes for both gameplay and plot.

[Draynin]

The way I interpreted deep caverns after experiencing it a few times is like this

1.  Tchort is not a threat to underrail when you enter the DC. But he will be for a number of reasons. He has the cube, an item of extraordinary power, they just don't know how to use it. Imagine if they were able to consume and integrate the faceless commander and learn how to unlock its powers.

2. Six and the Faceless don't try and fight Tchort for the above reason, and the I believe besides what they say, they know Tchort is stronger against beings with higher intelligence. Not to say the PC is stupid but I saw it as kind of working like cerebral trauma can. Tchort most likely is able to deal with beings of greater intelligence and understanding better, due to collective its consciousness and psi presence, and that's why he wanted Six to come to retrieve the cube himself, and ultimately why Six sends you instead of going himself.

3. Continuing on the Six thing, I really don't want to know what Tchort would have been able to due if he somehow baited Six down to his chamber, defeated him and was able to absorb his mind. I'm sure a collective mind, with a psi presence that affects miles around it wouldn't be amplified to impossible power with the knowledge of a god man. Not to mention if they were able to use Six's teleportation tech, which even the player can (thanks Dude), he could just teleport his minions and the cultist where ever they wanted. Which is a big no-no

4. I have two theories as well, as why Tchort doesn't let you leave. It makes sense if he wanted Six, he would let you leave so Six or the faceless would have to come to him themselves. My first theory is; is that Six was masquerading his presence on top of yours. Simply put, Tchort didn't know it was a normal human that fought their way to him until you enter the chamber, as he comments his was expecting the high one to come himself. This makes sense because when you are in DC, Six only talks to you face to face, never over radio, never using psionics or anything else. This means Tchort could never tell your presences apart because Six never gave them a way too. I also think this is a possible reason why Six doesn't assist directly during the events of DC. But I believe he was watching and putting his presence on you as an indirect form of assistance. The other theory, which is extremely unlikely, is that Tchort was afraid other God Men being able to come down after knowing what was going on via your character returning from DC. So Tanner, or maybe Dude (who i'm convinced is a god man). But that's way less likely to to be the case.

[brobotics]

4. I have two theories as well, as why Tchort doesn't let you leave. It makes sense if he wanted Six, he would let you leave so Six or the faceless would have to come to him themselves. My first theory is; is that Six was masquerading his presence on top of yours. Simply put, Tchort didn't know it was a normal human that fought their way to him until you enter the chamber, as he comments his was expecting the high one to come himself. This makes sense because when you are in DC, Six only talks to you face to face, never over radio, never using psionics or anything else. This means Tchort could never tell your presences apart because Six never gave them a way too. I also think this is a possible reason why Six doesn't assist directly during the events of DC. But I believe he was watching and putting his presence on you as an indirect form of assistance. The other theory, which is extremely unlikely, is that Tchort was afraid other God Men being able to come down after knowing what was going on via your character returning from DC. So Tanner, or maybe Dude (who i'm convinced is a god man). But that's way less likely to to be the case.

Your post is backed up pretty well by dialogue with the Faceless Commander. Although I dont think the Faceless would ever let themselves be captured alive ... It would be in-character for them to self terminate rather than let Tchort peek into their hive mind and everything they collectively know.

Interesting point about Tchort thinking Six was the one turning on the power at Arke and opening the gates. I'd never though of it that way.

I am still confused by the line, "It is Shadow we expected" though. Some have made the connection between Shadow and Rahm-Umbra, yet we are not Six, the one Tchort supposedly expected, confirmed by the "mangy railrat" line soon after.  The English in UnderRail has improved alot over the years, and Tchort's monologue has even been rewritten a few times, so I don't think "It is Shadow we expected" can be written off as dodgy translation.  Maybe epeli has some theory explaining that, having seen all the iterations of that fight since release.

The other thing I wonder is the status of the third Godman. Did he get integrated into Tchort? It would explain Tchort's knowledge of High Ones & the Cube, as well as why Six knows it must be destroyed (could also have Cube knowledge from Biocorp technocrats though). And since Expedition, we know killing fully fledged Leviathans is not impossible for non-Godmen. Or maybe Tanner's "crime" was murder? I had thought the third Godman would be revealed during Expedition, but they are maybe saving the reveal for some place in the West or East? Who knows.

Anyway, enough rambling for now.   

[Iviris]

or maybe Dude (who i'm convinced is a god man)

Dude is J. Dyson (forgot the full name, I think it was mentioned somewhere) from hollow earth project. It is very clear, but if you want I can elaborate. He lost his memory in riftwalking, he explains that himself. The question is, why is he still alive and well (temporal cave magic, I'm sure), but then again Erza (either Anton Matveev or Kirill Gavriluk, I was never able to tell them apart) is from the same team and is alive too.

Good justification for six not being able to fight tchort tho.

What I personally dislike in DC is the sharp and awkward turn to space opera tier of cosmic fantasy. You're lurking decently scientific post-cyberpunk world with some limited psionics (you possibly didn't even get to oculus in your first playthrough) for 50 hours, and boom, here is your exposition dump, now there are leviathans. godmen, magic portals, other realities, "flesh of the high ones" and all the new age shtuff. I would really prefer it to stay more grounded.  Expediion does kind the same with it's final revelation, but is much better paced and written and it is still kinda optional.

But still, the problem is, for the next expansion/sequel etc, I'm not exactly surely how am I going to take seriously all these down to earth "kill 20 raiders" quests, knowing that the game is ultimately about cosmic horrors and struggles of resident superhumans. But I guess it is too late to fix now.

[TheAverageGortsby]

The question is, why is he still alive and well

I know there's no strong evidence to back this up, but my pet hypothesis about that is that Dude is not yet John Dyson, but will become him.  His picture as New Dude looked younger than his previous picture, so I like the idea that he further explores Temporal Manipulation and then somehow goes back over a century in time and becomes John Dyson, after the events of the game.

Plus it would in theory let the universe experience The Dude meeting himself, which...let's not deny the universe that majestic occurrence.

[Ravager]

or maybe Dude (who i'm convinced is a god man)

What I personally dislike in DC is the sharp and awkward turn to space opera tier of cosmic fantasy. You're lurking decently scientific post-cyberpunk world with some limited psionics (you possibly didn't even get to oculus in your first playthrough) for 50 hours, and boom, here is your exposition dump, now there are leviathans. godmen, magic portals, other realities, "flesh of the high ones" and all the new age shtuff. I would really prefer it to stay more grounded.  Expediion does kind the same with it's final revelation, but is much better paced and written and it is still kinda optional.

But still, the problem is, for the next expansion/sequel etc, I'm not exactly surely how am I going to take seriously all these down to earth "kill 20 raiders" quests, knowing that the game is ultimately about cosmic horrors and struggles of resident superhumans. But I guess it is too late to fix now.

There's always been a kind of weird tension / conflict in Underrail between the relatively down-to-earth post-cyberpunk world you inhabit, and this high-space-opera cosmic fantasy. In the latter, unbelievably-powerful beings are traveling all over the galaxy, blowing up moons, traveling through dimensions. Time is not necessarily linear, we are playing with gods of time and space.

So what does the little ant-farm of Underrail mean in all of this? Some people like to talk about 'choice and consequence,' but what do your choices matter for Underrail if it is a cosmic speck that could be wiped away with a shift of space-time? That kind of morbid question fits in with the series, though.