Author Topic: Requesting crossbow build from Wildan  (Read 36968 times)

Taggart

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Re: Requesting crossbow build from Wildan
« Reply #45 on: March 25, 2016, 10:52:50 pm »
@player1
Not necessarily. Just eat more junk without savescumming! Junkyard Surprises are cheap...

Actually that is even worse due to 5s cooldown.
I hesitantly agree.

At first I used to keep piles of Junkyard Surprise and just eat eat eat until I got the combo I wanted.

Then, one time, I accidentally ate one more; which was also my last one - so I reloaded.

To my surprise, the reload was a lot quicker than the time to eat another one.

So now, I admit it, I save scum it - it's just quicker to eat/reload until the right combo comes up, than it is to eat eat eat. And, if you are unlucky, you end up "eating up" a lot of time trying to get that right combo. Save scumming saves quite a bit of time, over time, if you end up unlucky.

hilf

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Re: Requesting crossbow build from Wildan
« Reply #46 on: March 26, 2016, 06:11:22 am »
Another surprise is that game saves longer than it loads (:
But YMMV.

Cratzzz

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Re: Requesting crossbow build from Wildan
« Reply #47 on: May 17, 2016, 10:04:36 pm »
What kind of a build are you planing to go for?
A knife fighter is well suited for a stun immune assassin with lots of HP, many attacks thanks to throwing knifes plus amazing critical damage. One of my favorite build as it's very fit for permadeath runs.

Hey just wanna say thx, decided too try your build and it's been alot of fun! Nice synergy with everything. lvl6 atm and feels crazy strong. With that amount of HP, AP, Dodge and Evasion every round is over before it's even started ^^

Running Nimble, Recklessness, Sprint, Crippling Strike and Cheap Shots atm. Getting Taste for Blood next :)

Wildan

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Re: Requesting crossbow build from Wildan
« Reply #48 on: May 18, 2016, 06:34:20 am »
Good to hear but I'm afraid that build I posted is outdated by now. :(
On what game version are you playing? The april patch 1.0.1.8 brought some substantial changes for DEX-based and melee builds. DEX AP bonus for light weapons was reduced from 4% to 3%. 14 DEX + tabbis were enough to bring the attack cost down to 6 AP and Taste for Blood feat had the potential to reduce it further to 4 AP which is the current cap.
Now 14, 15 or even 16 DEX + tabbis equal 7 AP attacks and Taste for Blood offers no AP reduction anymore. That reduces the potential of 12 attacks within 50 AP down to 7 attacks which is a loss of more than 40%!
http://www.underrail.com/wiki/index.php?title=Dexterity

You could ofcourse plan to increase DEX to 16 which when supplemented with eel sandwitch (+1 DEX temporary) is enough for 6 AP attacks (8 attacks per turn which is still a loss of 33% compared to before) but you'd have to shed off two stat points from CON rendering both Thick Skull and Survival Insincts unavailable. So I no longer recommend the CON route for knife fighters. Too bad you're in middle of a playthrough and there is no way to respec your build. I wish Styg would leave previous versions as an option in the "beta" tab in Steam game property. Some games like Europa Universalis 4 have this. More than once did a patch ruin my playthrough.

I haven't played with knifes since the nerf but it seems they are the weakest branch right now, becomming less suitable as a main weapon but merely as a support for special attacks like Cut Throat, Eviscerate or finishing a badly wounded enemy with Ripper crit bonus.

Something needs to happen to make knives attractive again. They have the best critical damage bonus of all melee weapons but that's by far not enough to compensate for how slow they became. There are faster than 12 base AP knives but they are too weak for combat. 11 AP TiChrome doesn't help in this matter. There is also -1 AP gain from the supersoldier drug but the components are too rare to make a regular use of it.
Maybe knives could get a feat for a special "Flurry" attack that does 3 attacks for the price of +50% more AP and reduced precision (same as Rapid Fire works for some firearms) but with 1 turn cooldown.

Back to how knifes are best played right now. There seems to be no way around 10 AGI and Blitz anymore. Fatal Throw was also nerfed to 18 AP refund only once per turn but at least it still offers net gain of 7 AP @17 DEX.
Best case scenario 1st turn: 50 base AP + 20 from adrenaline drug + 18 from Fatal Throw refund = 88 AP
2nd turn: 50 base AP + 20 from adrenaline drug + 20 from Blitz + 18 from Fatal Throw refund = 108 AP
That's enough to fit in a knife throw (11 AP) and 12 regular 6 AP attacks in the first round (83 AP) and in the second a throw + 16 attacks (107 AP). Sounds good but thanks to lightning punches unarmed can do 19 and 24 attacks (4 AP each) in the same scenario. SMGs have even more potential.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2016, 06:38:57 am by Wildan »

Eldakar

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Re: Requesting crossbow build from Wildan
« Reply #49 on: May 18, 2016, 09:38:56 am »
That would also allow armor slopping and weaponsmith since survival instincts and thick skull is out.

Wildan

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Re: Requesting crossbow build from Wildan
« Reply #50 on: May 18, 2016, 03:23:26 pm »
Armor Sloping works only for metal armors and those require 8 STR to wear without penalty. STR makes little sense for knife fighters because of weak STR damage bonus for them and no STR based feats like unarmed fighters have them (Wrestling/Bone Breaker).

Weaponsmith can work well to compensate for the loss of offensive ability though. For now probably the best thing for a knife build is to make a strong bond with throwing, especially grenades and to focus on it as early as possible. In order to bring both grenade feats (Grenadier/Three-Pointer) in AND weaponsmith one more feat has to go and that should be Cut-Throat and here is why. Cut-Throat requires 30 AP to perform and with only 20 AP left there are 4 options:
1. Attack 3 times with the melee knife (18 AP) which is pointless considering that throwing is the best asset in this build but remains unused.
2. Attack once with the melee knife (6 AP) and throwing knife (11 AP) which will often not be enough for a Fatal Throw kill (18 AP refund) and again leaves grenades unused.
3. Throw a grenade (15 AP) which will do good damage but leave only 5 AP left - not enough to use a throwing knife or even a single melee attack.
4. Pop in adrenaline shot and with 40 AP do all of the above but while it's not a rare drug it would still be a waste opening a majority of battles with it and can be dangerous when fatigue kicks in and the bulk of enemy force just arrivied attracted by the sound. Should be kept for strategical use to overcome a disadvantage only when needed.

So the best thing is to forget about Cut-Throat, sneak around until enemies group together as close as possible, then enter combat mode and open up with a grenade, kill a wounded survivor (less than 25% hp) with a throwing knife getting 18 AP back, use Sprint and with remaining 42 AP attack exactly 7 times with the melee knife which makes a full use of all AP. Second turn starts with plenty of MP for 20 AP Blitz bonus which means all of the above can be repeated plus 3 extra melee attacks or use adrenaline for a total of 108 AP (including 18 AP Fatal Throw refund) allowing for up to 16 melee attacks. To improve the crit chance even further infused rathound leather armor would be a good choice as main armor.

Build progression:
S 3
D 10++++++
A 10
C 3
P 3
W 5
I 6

01 - Recklessness
01 - Sprint
02 - Nimble
04 - Quick Tinkering
06 - Grenadier
08 - Fatal Throw
10 - Three-Pointer
12 - Ripper
14 - Critical Power
16 - Cheap Shots
18 - Taste for Blood
20 - Expose Weakness
22 - Blitz
24 - Weaponsmith

This way knifes are far from useless but like I said, they still seem inferior to combat gloves which have a stun potential with Combo and good debufs with Wrestling and Bone Breaker (knife fighter has the Kukri though). A DEX based unarmed fighter has worse critical chance and damage but can reach 4 AP attacks which equals many attacks even without Blitz.

Eldakar

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Re: Requesting crossbow build from Wildan
« Reply #51 on: May 22, 2016, 12:00:10 pm »
This way knifes are far from useless but like I said, they still seem inferior to combat gloves which have a stun potential with Combo and good debufs with Wrestling and Bone Breaker (knife fighter has the Kukri though). A DEX based unarmed fighter has worse critical chance and damage but can reach 4 AP attacks which equals many attacks even without Blitz.

But unarmed does only 5-9 dmg.

Would bare hand build even work ?

7/10++/6+/7+++/3/3/5

01 - Recklessness
01 - Sprint
02 - Opportunist
04 - Lightning Punches
06 - Hit and run or Fancy footwork
08 - Cheap shots
10 - Bone breaker
12 - Combo
14 - Crittical power
16 - Survival instrincts
18 - Taste for Blood
20 - Expose Weakness
22 - Thick Skull
24 - Wrestling

Force Emission for boost dmg.

Would droping blitz and Opportunist for survival instincts and thick skull would be good idea?





« Last Edit: May 25, 2016, 09:44:18 am by Eldakar »

Eldakar

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Re: Requesting crossbow build from Wildan
« Reply #52 on: July 05, 2016, 07:41:02 pm »
PSI assassin

S 3
D 10++++++
A 6
C 3
P 3
W 10
I 5

01 - Recklessness
01 - Sprint
02 - Nimble
04 - Lightning punches
06 - Cheap Shots
08 - Premeditation
10 - Cryogenic induction
12 - Combo
14 - Critical Power
16 - Locus of control
18 - Taste for Blood
20 - Expose Weakness
22 - Bone breaker
24 - Vile weaponry
« Last Edit: July 05, 2016, 07:50:58 pm by Eldakar »

Ramen_os

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Re: Requesting crossbow build from Wildan
« Reply #53 on: October 26, 2016, 03:53:08 pm »
Hi guys,

Question for you: I am arriving on the Deep Caverns. I play a crossbow guy.

My crossbow does 38-70dps + 23% chance of critical bonus. I have some shock bolt II, serrated bold, poisoned bolt and incendiary bolt I & II.

Do you think I am good to the end like this or I will never be able to finish it?

My stealth is horrible just FYI :D

Ravager

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Re: Requesting crossbow build from Wildan
« Reply #54 on: October 09, 2017, 05:36:59 pm »


The equipment should consist of:
1 damage dealer crossbow - Scoped (anatomically-aware) Super Zephyr Crossbow. Tornado is stronger but has fewer, weaker criticals, a 2% CtH penalty and also important - 15% instead of 10% move and shoot penalty. Ideally you'll be shooting first and then moving but now and then you won't be able to do so because sometimes you'll have to hide behind a corner to lure the enemy in your trap, and when he steps on it he'll be rooted and you likely won't see him unless you step out from cover again. Also on some rare occasion a bug happens where the enemies can fire at you but you can't fire back unless you move. This problem is not special to crossbows and can happen with any ranged weapon.
1 special bolt spammer crossbow - Scoped (anatomically-aware) Pneumatic Cyclone Crossbow. I'll get more to it later.


This is a really cool build, so thanks Wildan. But how is it affected by the Bowyer feat?

Sanger

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Re: Requesting crossbow build from Wildan
« Reply #55 on: October 11, 2017, 08:22:17 am »
This is a really cool build, so thanks Wildan. But how is it affected by the Bowyer feat?

It's just a direct upgrade to Critical Power. Extra 90% critical damage on all crossbows. If you are using the build described here I would replace Pack Rathound with it, which should be soon enough for you to make use of it before the Institute/DC.

I'll take the opportunity to say once again that I love where crossbows are at the moment. I think they're in the sweet spot of game balance that all of the weapon classes ought to occupy.

Fenix

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Re: Requesting crossbow build from Wildan
« Reply #56 on: October 11, 2017, 08:24:42 am »


The equipment should consist of:
1 damage dealer crossbow - Scoped (anatomically-aware) Super Zephyr Crossbow. Tornado is stronger but has fewer, weaker criticals, a 2% CtH penalty and also important - 15% instead of 10% move and shoot penalty. Ideally you'll be shooting first and then moving but now and then you won't be able to do so because sometimes you'll have to hide behind a corner to lure the enemy in your trap, and when he steps on it he'll be rooted and you likely won't see him unless you step out from cover again. Also on some rare occasion a bug happens where the enemies can fire at you but you can't fire back unless you move. This problem is not special to crossbows and can happen with any ranged weapon.
1 special bolt spammer crossbow - Scoped (anatomically-aware) Pneumatic Cyclone Crossbow. I'll get more to it later.


This is a really cool build, so thanks Wildan. But how is it affected by the Bowyer feat?

I playing now (just postponed it for sledgehammer build) crossbower, and while traps greatly help in certain places, for expierinced player they trivialize things too much, and I almost don't use them in late-game (I haven't been in DC yet).
So if someone experienced with the game, I recommend go without traps - you will get more free skillpoints and 2 feats.

Here is the build I actually want to play http://underrail.info.tm/build/?AwGloJgVhBmEYEZT0TeB2M3GxuEXJPEDGADgNGWuAJsLu3oisJAg4E44AWOciF6goiBPCgA2UmLIguqYNMQRyQA

You can find that Snipe and Ambush is excessive when both are taken, dunno, didn't used them yet so I don't know.
Also Paranoia can be a bit overkill with 15 Perception, for me it is fine.
So you can replace 2 feats for something you like more, or even more - e.g. Evasive Maneuvers, Concussive Shots, Kneecap Shot, Recklessnes or Nimble.

Not as powerful as build with traps, but powerful enough to complete game I think.
I just don't like to spend feats for situational fights when traps make things easier - I'll better use bear traps with zero skill before fight, and plan my fight than I spent feats on that, because most of the fights doesn't require that.

I'll take the opportunity to say once again that I love where crossbows are at the moment.

True.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2017, 08:27:28 am by Fenix »

Sanger

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Re: Requesting crossbow build from Wildan
« Reply #57 on: October 11, 2017, 08:34:30 am »
Here is the build I actually want to play http://underrail.info.tm/build/?AwGloJgVhBmEYEZT0TeB2M3GxuEXJPEDGADgNGWuAJsLu3oisJAg4E44AWOciF6goiBPCgA2UmLIguqYNMQRyQA

I recommend taking Snipe as soon as you can at level 6, don't put it off. It is unbelievably good for a crossbow user - taking it early turns Depot A into a mutant bloodbath.

I took both Snipe and Ambush and if I had to choose one, it would be Snipe, absolutely no contest.

Edit: I'd take Special Tactics as soon as possible too, as Wildan's build recommends; it's another game changer.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2017, 08:52:05 am by Sanger »

Fenix

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Re: Requesting crossbow build from Wildan
« Reply #58 on: October 11, 2017, 04:59:40 pm »
Well, I did Deport A without it, but if I did not then take Quick Tinkering then, I would take Snipe.

Bruno

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Re: Requesting crossbow build from Wildan
« Reply #59 on: October 12, 2017, 06:30:58 am »
That is a pretty good build Fenix, but you are very weak against melee enemies without Quick Tinkering, with mostly stealth-gear and only decent-good initiative.

You got to know what you are doing with 3 con, no dodge, no armor and 25 initiative, sooner or later you will be caught out of stealth...