Pistols versus SMGs

[eLPuSHeR]

Hi.

Just testing several weapon loadouts.

Is it me or do pistols feel pretty underwhelming/dissapointing when compared to SMGs? 

Invested heavily in crafting in both cases; SMGs win by a big margin to me.

Your thoughts?

[player1]

Pistols require less ability points to be effective in them.

[hilf]

My theory is screenshots like this and talking about big single hit damage numbers from pistols scared StygSoft and made them overnerf this weapon type. Pistols got nerfed in several different ways in the same patch. Turning many knobs at the same time is asking for troubles, Firaxis already know this and i wish more devs did.

Big numbers have very strong psychological effect, not many can see through this mind trickery. Doing 16k damage seems insane but i'd rather do 8 * 1k (half as much) because i would kill 8 enemies instead of one.

[eLPuSHeR]

Pistols require less ability points to be effective in them.

Can you give a more in-depth explanation? I am not sure I am following you here.

[Sanger]

SMGs are much better than pistols in every way, yes. At all levels of expenditure.

[player1]

Pistols require less ability points to be effective in them.

Can you give a more in-depth explanation? I am not sure I am following you here.

For example, you can get just PER6, set STR/DEX/AGI at the minimum and still be able to have pistols as decent "backup" weapon.

On the other hand, SMG need AGI6 for Spec Ops, at least average PER, and high DEX is crucial to be able to burst more then once per turn. And Full Auto feat for better bursts requires STR 7.

.

If on the other hand, you want to specialize with Pistols, you need DEX, but then with high DEX it makes more sense to specialize in SMG, since gains are higher.

In fact, for STR3 SMG character, pistol can be nice backup option with powerful Aimed Shot attacks, when they make sense over burst.

[eLPuSHeR]

I disagree. Firearms benefit from high PER. You can create a decent SMG user with low STR and without Full Auto or Spec Ops. Combine it with a sniper rifle (custom made) and you are all set. You only need STR 5 for sniping with sniper rifles and none STR req. for Dragunov.
I built a custom 7.62 harbinger which had 175% critical damage. Nice.

[Sanger]

SMG doesn't need either Spec Ops or high DEX to beat out pistols at equal levels. Even with PER 6 and no other investment besides Guns, an SMG is much more useful than a pistol. Best exemplified by the start of the game with a pistol character, where you're always better off using an SMG.

Pistols have .44s available. But without DEX these are just crappy short range sniper rifles and inferior to Dragunov. Can't even shoot twice with a Rapid .44 unless you have 6 DEX. 

[player1]

SMG doesn't need either Spec Ops or high DEX to beat out pistols at equal levels.

Without Spec Out, SMGs are nothing else then crappy Assault Rifles.
Spec Ops is what makes them stand out as weapons category. AGI6 build with Spec Ops is always superior to the SMG build with AGI3 that takes extra +3PER.

In single shot fire, pistols beat SMG. And 5 round low precision burst is often not worth 3 times single shot AP cost.

As for comparing pistols to snipers, pistols do not need STR and can make a use of Rapid Fire feat, thus .44 pistol can get 3 attacks in round if necessary. Plus they are working fine when moving around or when at point blank. Also, energy and chemical weapons are also pistols, as well as crafting only electrical pistol.

[Sanger]

Without Spec Out, SMGs are nothing else then crappy Assault Rifles.

Not true. I played a pistol specialist without Spec Ops and still ended up using SMGs half the time. Even without Spec Ops, Burst has no cooldown and does massive damage.

In single shot fire, pistols beat SMG.

Also not true. QL 50 7.62mm Hammerer with no DEX = 2 shots = 20-62 damage per round. QL 50 7.62mm Steel Cat with no DEX = 3 shots = 24-72 damage per round. SMGs pull further ahead with a rapid reloader. Further still with adrenaline. Pistols shine in high damage per single shot, but this doesn't apply to low calibers, where you're pretty much always better off with a SMG.

As for comparing pistols to snipers, pistols do not need STR and can make a use of Rapid Fire feat, thus .44 pistol can get 3 attacks in round if necessary. Plus they are working fine when moving around or when at point blank. Also, energy and chemical weapons are also pistols, as well as crafting only electrical pistol.

Dragunov has no strength requirement either. When moving around or at point blank you use SMG. Rapid Fire is an advantage a .44 has over a Dragunov, true. Laser/chemical pistols never do competitive damage for low DEX characters as far as I can tell, maybe chemical pistols might be useful for proc effects? Though if you're dabbling in pistols then whatever you're specialising in is probably going to be better for CC.

[player1]

Truth, to be told, when at STR3, there is no reason not to use both.

SMG for bursts, pistol for Aimed Shot. Swap pistol with Dragunov, when it makes sense...

One more thing to add in pistol favor would be craftable ammo.

9mm and .44 ammo gives direct damage boost (Acid/Explosive Bullets), which most of SMG ammo (exempt 5mm) lacks. Damage over time does not matter if you kill enemies in one round.

[eLPuSHeR]

The one thing I like more for SMGs over other weapons is that you get insane amounts of attacks per round with high DEX. I am not looking into the big flat damage output obviously, but being able to attack more times per round is a godsend. I hate when you have two attacks per round (with high caliber pistols or crossbow for instance) and you miss one or both 95% shots.

Player1 is right. A nice combo of pistol/smg/sniper is cool. You just have to swap it when needed.

On the other hand I always ended up using SMGs most of the time over pistols, specially when you get access to high caliber ones.

[Sanger]

On the other hand I always ended up using SMGs most of the time over pistols, specially when you get access to high caliber ones.

Same... and this was without Spec Ops and with a bunch of pistol feats. 

SMGs are just plain better IMO. Huge balance discrepancy between SMG and pistol. Felt very disappointed when I realised that any build specialising in pistols could do much much better using SMGs.

But if I wanted a weapon without investing lot of stats or feat into it it wouldn't be pistol IMO. Nor SMG.