Author Topic: Requesting pistol build from Wildan  (Read 27972 times)

player1

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Re: Requesting pistol build from Wildan
« Reply #15 on: April 21, 2016, 07:00:01 am »
Funny thing about pistols...

If you get character build that is specialized for pistols with STR6, wouldn't he actually better perform, by just getting AR for shorter range and sniper for long range?

Eldakar

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Re: Requesting pistol build from Wildan
« Reply #16 on: April 21, 2016, 09:49:19 am »
Funny thing about pistols...

If you get character build that is specialized for pistols with STR6, wouldn't he actually better perform, by just getting AR for shorter range and sniper for long range?

If you want badass AR build try sniper-commando build that Wildan posted some months ago. Its better then tin-can metal gun with AR. I tried both.

Btw Neo-luger with gun nut dmg is 5 shots for 10ap and dmg 22-34 = 110-170
Hornet rifle  is 6 shots for 8ap and dmg 14-25 = 84-150
Those numbers are from wiki, im sure crafted will be higher.

And .44 hammerer with gun nut is 3 shots - 15-79 = 45-237
Spearhead sniper 38-83 x 2 = 76-166
« Last Edit: April 21, 2016, 09:59:07 am by Eldakar »

Fenix

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Re: Requesting pistol build from Wildan
« Reply #17 on: April 21, 2016, 12:33:39 pm »
No. You stun it first and then use another weapon for Executing.

Then it should count.

I am level 10 I think and I haven't come across any Falchion frame yet nor rapid reloaded either. This quite defeats the purpose on crafting but I don't want to whine too much... XD

Try Blaine - he often get some, and in 50% frames he has has quality ~100.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2016, 01:14:12 pm by Fenix »

Wildan

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Re: Requesting pistol build from Wildan
« Reply #18 on: April 21, 2016, 01:12:13 pm »
Yes a sniper riffle is an excellent sencondary weapon for many builds.
One can go for a medium DEX build too: 11 DEX (10 + eel) will bring the 9mm Hammerer down to 16 AP - 3 AP from Gunslinger further down to 13 AP. Investing only 10 points in DEX leaves lots of room for high PER so the sniper stays useful at long ranges.
13 AP per shot is a pretty sweet spot because of how the game handles AP calculation with Rapid Fire and Point Shot = If AP doesn't turn out to be a whole number the result gets truncated. In this case 13 AP +50% = 19,5 -> 19 AP for Rapid Fire, 13 AP - 50% -> 6,5 -> 6 AP for Point Shot.

You can see right away how 19 and 6 AP go well with an 24 AP RR Spearhead: Sniper shot + Rapid Fire + Point Shot for 49 AP, or just 2 sniper shots if the distance is too great for the pistol. Optimally it would be best to use the pistol every other round anyway because of Rapid Fire cooldown, otherwise it's 2 regular pistol shots vs 1 sniper and the later wins IMO.

Compared to SMGs I'm still not very fond of Hammerer critical builds. Yes they have 9mm available which has the best special ammo but 20 Base AP equals only 10% critical chance with Steadfast Aim and with regular hammerer bonus and Recklessness that equals 24% which doesn't make a huge difference. There are +crit googles ofcourse but it would be a waste not to pick the smart ones because of Snipe and Aimed Shot (sniper). When it comes to critical chance and damage I'd rather go for max possible (plasma pistol) or not at all. Pistols are not well suited for regular dps combat but for specialised damage like stuns + Execute, chemical and energy weapons. 25 AP for Rapid Fire and Point Shot loses vs what an SMG is cappable, even after the DEX nerf. It's still easy to make a 12 AP 8.6/7.62 mm or even 6 AP 5mm SMG and complement the sniper, plus there is the Commando feat.

No. You stun it first and then use another weapon for Executing.

Then it should count.

Electroshock pistol is banned from the Execute club anyway.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2016, 01:22:31 pm by Wildan »

hilf

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Re: Requesting pistol build from Wildan
« Reply #19 on: April 21, 2016, 01:56:09 pm »
Guys, what SMG nerfs are you talking about? I can't see anything other than DEX reduction to AP.


Oh BTW: there was a bug with Gunslinger that made it work with energy and chemical weapons as well. I just recently learned that Gunslinger was not supposed to work with energimp/chegimpal. Such a weird decision. I would not report it anyway because it was actually benefitting the game.
Not sure if it's still (theoretically) broken.

I'm glad to see Wildan and me agree about Gunslinger and Steadfast Aim.

eLPuSHeR

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Re: Requesting pistol build from Wildan
« Reply #20 on: April 21, 2016, 02:50:49 pm »
I am level 10 I think and I haven't come across any Falchion frame yet nor rapid reloaded either. This quite defeats the purpose on crafting but I don't want to whine too much... XD

Quote
Try Blaine - he often get some, and in 50% frames he has has quality ~100.

Hmm. It may sound stupid but WHO IS BLAINE?  ::)

eLPuSHeR

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Re: Requesting pistol build from Wildan
« Reply #21 on: April 21, 2016, 02:52:50 pm »
@Wildan:

The more I read this topic, the less I like pistols.  :P

@hilf:

Quote
Guys, what SMG nerfs are you talking about? I can't see anything other than DEX reduction to AP.

Yes, we are referring to that.

PS - I will keep going on for a little more with pistols (reaching old depot now) until I get fed up and return to my sniper/smg build.

PS2 . SO... SUMMING UP... Recommend me two pistols I should go with. Should I go for a very fast one on one hand (5mm) and a heavy slower one on the other hand (.44 hammerer)? Or should I go middle ground with a 7.62/9mm + energy one?. Or having two separate weapon loadouts... Hmpf. Pistols seem to be far more complicated than SMGs which, let's face it, are very straightforward.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2016, 02:57:28 pm by eLPuSHeR »

hilf

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Re: Requesting pistol build from Wildan
« Reply #22 on: April 21, 2016, 03:01:58 pm »

@hilf:

Quote
Guys, what SMG nerfs are you talking about? I can't see anything other than DEX reduction to AP.

Yes, we are referring to that.

Than why would SMGs be hit harder than pistols? Going from Uber Awesome to 'just' Awesome is not as bad as going from barely viable to crap. Or is the new Gunslinger, that affects 1 out of 3 pistols categories, that great? On my pistol build i didn't really feel like i needed more initiative, except arena champion fight.

eLPuSHeR

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Re: Requesting pistol build from Wildan
« Reply #23 on: April 21, 2016, 04:24:14 pm »
We are not talking about initiative here (attack turn) but AP required to shoot (number of shots per round). Yes, SMGs are still quite good even if somewhat nerfed in latest patches.

Eldakar

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Re: Requesting pistol build from Wildan
« Reply #24 on: April 21, 2016, 04:58:55 pm »
I wonder what would be really better for bursts ARs vs SMG's. Noone did calculations so far. Hornet burst 9x 14-25 = 126-225. And you can burst 3 times a round with commando and rapid reloader so thats 378-675.

Now lets see 5mm Jaguar. 9x 8-13=72-117. With commando it will be 5 bursts so 360-585.

And Impala 7.62 can also reach 5 burts so lets see: 9x10-20=90-180 x 5 =  450-900!

Im too lazy to check steelcat but its same speed just 8-24 dmg. So dmg will be bigger then Impala.

However on SMG build you need 16 dex to get those numbers and your perception will be 8 vs 16 for AR's. So there is no clear answer what is better.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2016, 05:35:24 pm by Eldakar »

hilf

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Re: Requesting pistol build from Wildan
« Reply #25 on: April 21, 2016, 06:12:13 pm »
PS2 . SO... SUMMING UP... Recommend me two pistols I should go with. Should I go for a very fast one on one hand (5mm) and a heavy slower one on the other hand (.44 hammerer)? Or should I go middle ground with a 7.62/9mm + energy one?. Or having two separate weapon loadouts... Hmpf. Pistols seem to be far more complicated than SMGs which, let's face it, are very straightforward.
All chemical and energy pistols should be avoided until Gunslinger is back to working on them. Unless you really love one trick ponies because that's what energy pistols are.

Energy is in theory very rarely resisted but in practice all of the hardest enemies: Spoilerless, Dreadbot, Final Boss are resistant to it. Oh, and energy shields are very effective vs them and are used by all those 1HKO snipers and Plasma Spoilers.

Yeah, pistols are more complicated and that's why they should be more powerful than simpler options but ... they are weaker.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2016, 06:17:07 pm by hilf »

player1

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Re: Requesting pistol build from Wildan
« Reply #26 on: April 21, 2016, 07:58:05 pm »
Funny thing about pistols...

If you get character build that is specialized for pistols with STR6, wouldn't he actually better perform, by just getting AR for shorter range and sniper for long range?

If you want badass AR build try sniper-commando build that Wildan posted some months ago. Its better then tin-can metal gun with AR. I tried both.

There is no doubt that specialized AR build will perform better. Been there done that.

What I'm talking about is that if you take pistol specialized build with STR6, and just switch to AR (that needs STR6), you will be more effective fighter (in many situations), then with pistol, which is plain weird.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2016, 08:00:03 pm by player1 »

Wildan

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Re: Requesting pistol build from Wildan
« Reply #27 on: April 21, 2016, 09:24:45 pm »

Than why would SMGs be hit harder than pistols? Going from Uber Awesome to 'just' Awesome is not as bad as going from barely viable to crap. Or is the new Gunslinger, that affects 1 out of 3 pistols categories, that great? On my pistol build i didn't really feel like i needed more initiative, except arena champion fight.

Because the new Gunslinger compensates faster pistols for decreased DEX bonus completely. Let's take 14 DEX and a 16 AP pistol as an example:
With old DEX formula it would get down to 10 AP and Gunslinger (-2) to 8. Now it get's down to 11 AP and Gunslinger (-3) to 8. So for faster pistols there is no difference at all. The change encourages the use of firearm pistols as a sidearm with low/mediocre DEX. Yes SMGs are still way better, nobody argues with that.

SO... SUMMING UP... Recommend me two pistols I should go with.

If you want to use firearms only stick to 15 DEX + eel and any best quality frame you can fit a 9mm on (10 AP per shot). For your secondary take the unique Bieretta 99 pistol. 5mm shock bullets are pretty g ood. Always do the special attacks (Aimed Shot, Rapid Fire, Point Shot, Execute) with your 9mm and with the rest of your AP spam with the 5mm. At 16 DEX it fires for 5 AP per shot so it's the fastest pistol in the game currently (except for RR 5mm hawker which sucks) but for the same reason you get virtually no critical chance from Steadfast aim which is 0.5% per AP above 10 (I thought it was just x 0.5 so it's worse than I remembered it), but as you see it shoots for exactly half the AP of the rapid 9mm so again, you have easy time min/maxing your AP pool.

The problem here is: You can't have 15 DEX, 6 AGI, 10 PER, and 7 INT. At level 24 there is 1 point missing so I'd drop INT and STR completely and invest into 11 PER, high AGI and replace Steadfast Aim with Uncanny Dodge for example.

Or you just play something else... Balancing seems to be an everchanging thing in Underrail. In alpha pistols used to be awesome, the crossbows lame, now it's exactly the other way around.

reinhark

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Re: Requesting pistol build from Wildan
« Reply #28 on: April 22, 2016, 03:34:24 am »
I wonder what would be really better for bursts ARs vs SMG's. Noone did calculations so far. Hornet burst 9x 14-25 = 126-225. And you can burst 3 times a round with commando and rapid reloader so thats 378-675.

Now lets see 5mm Jaguar. 9x 8-13=72-117. With commando it will be 5 bursts so 360-585.

And Impala 7.62 can also reach 5 burts so lets see: 9x10-20=90-180 x 5 =  450-900!

Im too lazy to check steelcat but its same speed just 8-24 dmg. So dmg will be bigger then Impala.

However on SMG build you need 16 dex to get those numbers and your perception will be 8 vs 16 for AR's. So there is no clear answer what is better.

NOT SO FAST!
You must consider that Spec ops only applies to SMGs. Therefore, unless you somehow get additional AP per turn, AR can only burst twice per turn(with commando) because x3 AP cost for burst is pretty high.

I think optimal damage sweet spot of SMG burst can be met exactly at 7.62mm Jaguar, with rapid reloader(10 base AP cost per normal attack).
Then using only 9 Dex, 3 bursts per turn without commando is possible.
If you dump other stats to PER, then optimal damage output could be achieved.

Lastly, although this is irrelevant to this discussion but smart targetting lens attachment is better than the muzzle attachment after certain point.
Muzzle damage increase = 9(after muzzle)/7(before muzzle) = 1.286ish = 28.6% damage increase.
Which means "+29% increased damage with special attacks" is better than muzzle. Highly recommended if you have skills invested into electronics.

« Last Edit: April 22, 2016, 03:40:14 am by reinhark »
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Eldakar

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Re: Requesting pistol build from Wildan
« Reply #29 on: April 22, 2016, 05:41:37 am »
reinhark, Hornet assult rifle with rapid reloader will burst for 24. So you can burst twice, three times with commando. Also SMGs like you said require to get dex to 9+ or even up to 16. But to see again, and check numbers.

Hornet burst 9x 14-25 = 126-225 x 3 = 378-675

Jaguar 7.62mm burst 9x10-20 = 90-180 x 4 = 360-720

Yes It is better. But you need to dump 6 extra points into dexterity to make it work and waste feat on Spec Ops.