Author Topic: Allowing traders to get new stock?  (Read 10886 times)

joejoefine

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Allowing traders to get new stock?
« on: December 16, 2012, 02:37:39 am »
Hello,

I was just playing the alpha a bit, and I guess I noticed an issue that was a bit vexing.

Basically I have nothing to buy or spend my money on that's useful to me. When I was playing the demo, there were sniper rifles, advanced armors, and things that I could save up for. But it *seems* like (I'm not sure if the inventory gets randomly refreshed if I play longer), what the trader starts with is what he has forever. So if he has a set amount of bullets, that's all you're ever going to get, so make sure you use your bullets wisely; but after that your guns for that caliber are kind of useless unless you hope to find more bullets later.

More generally, if you don't happen to find really useful armor or weapons in your travels, then you kind of have no recourse, and I can imagine that making the game unnecessarily hard for particularly unlucky players.

I feel like there should be some kind of refreshing of their inventory after a certain amount of in-game time has passed. How much I'm not sure...and whether a waiting system should be implemented I guess is up to Stygian to decide.

Also as another suggestion, it might be nice if you could allow for an easier way to reload the weapon rather than going in the inventory and manually reloading? It should be possible to just right click on the gun, or maybe double-click it, and then the character would load it with the appropriate caliber.

Beyond that thanks for the updates! I'm going to keep playing in hopes I find a sniper rifle (and some ammo) :).

BlackGyver

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Re: Allowing traders to get new stock?
« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2012, 05:30:10 am »
Hello,

I was just playing the alpha a bit, and I guess I noticed an issue that was a bit vexing.

Basically I have nothing to buy or spend my money on that's useful to me. When I was playing the demo, there were sniper rifles, advanced armors, and things that I could save up for. But it *seems* like (I'm not sure if the inventory gets randomly refreshed if I play longer), what the trader starts with is what he has forever. So if he has a set amount of bullets, that's all you're ever going to get, so make sure you use your bullets wisely; but after that your guns for that caliber are kind of useless unless you hope to find more bullets later.

More generally, if you don't happen to find really useful armor or weapons in your travels, then you kind of have no recourse, and I can imagine that making the game unnecessarily hard for particularly unlucky players.

I feel like there should be some kind of refreshing of their inventory after a certain amount of in-game time has passed. How much I'm not sure...and whether a waiting system should be implemented I guess is up to Stygian to decide.

Agreed on that point, even though I've been lucky enough to find what I wanted in the shops, it's a very sensible suggestion. I'd even go so far as to also suggest a system where you could still (if, say, you don't have enough money yet) put an option on a few items the vendor currently has so that you find them again when his inventory is refreshed (maybe for a fee, or by limiting the amount of options that can be put).

Also as another suggestion, it might be nice if you could allow for an easier way to reload the weapon rather than going in the inventory and manually reloading? It should be possible to just right click on the gun, or maybe double-click it, and then the character would load it with the appropriate caliber.

There is ! It's all in the help screen (interrogation point on top right corner). Basically, you just need to hold SHIFT and then the Combat Utilities bar changes to an Ammo bar where you can choose which bullets to reload your weapon with.

Hans_Sanitizer

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Re: Allowing traders to get new stock?
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2012, 01:28:36 am »
I'm wondering if this might be partly a difficulty issue. If traders constantly got new stock you would be able to go through hypos to your hearts content. I would say a compromise would be to have new stock every time a quest was completed, or every time a main quest point was completed. Not sure how hard this would be to implement, but I agree that the stocks of traders should change over time.

joejoefine

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Re: Allowing traders to get new stock?
« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2012, 11:43:12 pm »
Hello,

I was just playing the alpha a bit, and I guess I noticed an issue that was a bit vexing.

Basically I have nothing to buy or spend my money on that's useful to me. When I was playing the demo, there were sniper rifles, advanced armors, and things that I could save up for. But it *seems* like (I'm not sure if the inventory gets randomly refreshed if I play longer), what the trader starts with is what he has forever. So if he has a set amount of bullets, that's all you're ever going to get, so make sure you use your bullets wisely; but after that your guns for that caliber are kind of useless unless you hope to find more bullets later.

More generally, if you don't happen to find really useful armor or weapons in your travels, then you kind of have no recourse, and I can imagine that making the game unnecessarily hard for particularly unlucky players.

I feel like there should be some kind of refreshing of their inventory after a certain amount of in-game time has passed. How much I'm not sure...and whether a waiting system should be implemented I guess is up to Stygian to decide.

Agreed on that point, even though I've been lucky enough to find what I wanted in the shops, it's a very sensible suggestion. I'd even go so far as to also suggest a system where you could still (if, say, you don't have enough money yet) put an option on a few items the vendor currently has so that you find them again when his inventory is refreshed (maybe for a fee, or by limiting the amount of options that can be put).

Also as another suggestion, it might be nice if you could allow for an easier way to reload the weapon rather than going in the inventory and manually reloading? It should be possible to just right click on the gun, or maybe double-click it, and then the character would load it with the appropriate caliber.

There is ! It's all in the help screen (interrogation point on top right corner). Basically, you just need to hold SHIFT and then the Combat Utilities bar changes to an Ammo bar where you can choose which bullets to reload your weapon with.

Aghhh I should have read that interrogative screen more closely :P. Thanks for pointing that out, ironically I'm now playing a pure melee + psi character, but it will be useful when the full game comes out and I go back to my technologist roots.

Also I agree very much with your suggestion. I was just thinking about it myself actually, because it would make the game fairly stressful if you saw a really great piece of armor or weapon for sale, but you knew that you didn't have any money for it and it would probably be gone by the time you did.  So it would be useful to have a fee system in place where you can "save" important items for later.

Although I found out that I can mitigate a lot of the problems so far, because the trader's inventory is randomized just before you talk to him/her. I assumed before that it was the same inventory for each game, but if you quicksave before opening their trading menu, and then quickload, you can see that their stock is randomized with each quick load, allowing you to find what you need.

That said I think it would still be useful to have some restocking in terms of ammo, and health supplies (or maybe implement a way to make ammo, just like you can make armors and weaponry). So far I have been able to get by without much trouble just by scavenging ammo from the people I've killed, and since I'm particularly judicious in my use of ammo I always end up accumulating more than I use. But at the same time it makes me much less willing to use burst mode...although perhaps this kind of decision making is intended.

Also I'm not sure whether the store system was intended to be this way, such that if you really want to get the armor you want, you  have to craft it. But I'm not sure if that's too punishing or not for non-technological characters.

I guess the more I think about it, the more there is to think about. So I'll leave it to Stygian, but at least its good to bring it up!

I'm wondering if this might be partly a difficulty issue. If traders constantly got new stock you would be able to go through hypos to your hearts content. I would say a compromise would be to have new stock every time a quest was completed, or every time a main quest point was completed. Not sure how hard this would be to implement, but I agree that the stocks of traders should change over time.

Its true it might be a conscious decision on Styg's part to force us to use our hypos and ammo sparingly and consciously. It could also apply to burst fire mechanics or using your most powerful sniper rifle in every encounter (I think its 12.7 mm).  Honestly with my play style I end up having 60 unused hypos sitting in my inventory for emergency, and piles of unused ammunition for emergencies, as I'm very careful in my engagements and try to be as efficient as possible.

But I guess we all agree that it would make the game more engaging, and fun, if you had something to look forward to once you accumulate all of this gear from the enemies you've killed, but don't really have anything to spend it on. I kind of expect that this is something Styg wanted to do from the beginning, but just hasn't had time to implement. I guess the real problem is how you'd implement it to prevent the abuse you're talking about, amongst other issues.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2012, 11:51:02 pm by joejoefine »

JeffTheShark

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Re: Allowing traders to get new stock?
« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2012, 04:00:24 am »
why not just have a system of 'ok you got to soandso story progression, here is what you can buy now, in a addition to what i had before. think that would work?
Words, I don't know.

Tomwa

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Re: Allowing traders to get new stock?
« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2012, 06:45:53 am »
I really dislike the fact that you can run out of ammo entirely, I've been making a gunslinger character (I like that name :P) and he now has literally no capacity to fight due to the fact that no store has ammo.

davidabray

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Re: Allowing traders to get new stock?
« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2012, 04:07:39 pm »
I agree that a trader's stock should change over time. Not in a wholly random way but in a manner that conveys the idea that the trader is trading with other traders. The likes of Jack Quicksilver and other wandering traders etc. Traders should probably have a particular array of item and component types that they'll carry with min / max amounts of each object. At certain points the trader's inventory chanegs within these bounds. It may be that they should also only buy items off the player that fit into these broader categories but this might be too prescriptive.

For me the problem lies with the idea that there is no 'time' in underrail yet. Having time and the passage of time as a game mechanic would help with this sort of thing. Maybe the trader's inventory changes once a week as a trade caravan passes through. This could be implied or it could be written into the game in a manner similar to the wandering caravans in Fallout 3. After so many days you actually see a travelling trader who deals in medicines show up and spend some time with Doctor Pasqual, restocking Pasqual's supplies. If you happen to be there at the time then you can trade directly with the traveller. If not then you can trade with Pasqual who's inventory has changed.

I think Styg's already working on respawn timers but making time a more concrete part of the game would allow for more creative uses and also make the environment feel more alive.

maheusz

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Re: Allowing traders to get new stock?
« Reply #7 on: December 28, 2012, 08:28:23 pm »
Well, david there is a time counter/respawn when harvesting psi schrooms. It's like an hour in real life. I would guess that more of a problem is how the inventory should change.

Fenix

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Re: Allowing traders to get new stock?
« Reply #8 on: December 29, 2012, 04:50:15 pm »
trader's stock should change over time - when you complete some quests. Main quest?

davidabray

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Re: Allowing traders to get new stock?
« Reply #9 on: December 29, 2012, 09:19:03 pm »
Well, david there is a time counter/respawn when harvesting psi schrooms. It's like an hour in real life. I would guess that more of a problem is how the inventory should change.

This isn't quite what I meant - and also illustrates that time is currently rather underdeveloped. Where I mention adding the concept of time to the game I mean in a rather more fundamental, hours of the day, type of time. Walking from SGS to GMS should take time. Shops and bars shouldn't be open all the time, people should go to bed at some point. Jack Quicksilver should wait around for maybe a day and then head off so that his quest is failed. That sort of thing. I think this sort of restock...

trader's stock should change over time - when you complete some quests. Main quest?

... is a bit too arbitrary. I also don't think it will address another of Styg's current concerns. Namely, that certain creatures should respawn to allow the player to use them to gather experience and gain levels. If you're a gunslinger and you need to gun down a few more Burrowers so that you can gain a level and advance the main quest, you don't want to be waiting for the main quest to advance in order for the traders to restock on the bullets that you need to gun down the Burrowers.

I don't think it's that hard to decide how to change the inventory.  A trader should just have certain 'guidelines' of what should be in their inventory and there should be some kind of bounds on the quantities expected. That might be as wooly as saying Lucas should have Bullets[Min:20, Max:200] or as detailed as saying that Lucas should have 7.62 JHP[Min:2, Max:10] etc... When it's time for the inventory to change you just roll up some random results from these settings. I think some of this is already being done since each trader seems to start with a slightly randomised inventory. It just needs refreshing from time to time.

cane

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Re: Allowing traders to get new stock?
« Reply #10 on: December 29, 2012, 09:47:19 pm »
Here is a simple and perfect solution

* Traders replenish their stock ever 1-2 hours of gametime
* Traders stock better items after certain main story events ( as well as some other modifiers if wanted)

Styg

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Re: Allowing traders to get new stock?
« Reply #11 on: December 29, 2012, 11:19:32 pm »
Here is a simple and perfect solution

* Traders replenish their stock ever 1-2 hours of gametime
* Traders stock better items after certain main story events ( as well as some other modifiers if wanted)

I'm leaning towards this solution atm.

Styg

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Re: Allowing traders to get new stock?
« Reply #12 on: December 29, 2012, 11:24:22 pm »
I agree that a trader's stock should change over time. Not in a wholly random way but in a manner that conveys the idea that the trader is trading with other traders. The likes of Jack Quicksilver and other wandering traders etc. Traders should probably have a particular array of item and component types that they'll carry with min / max amounts of each object. At certain points the trader's inventory chanegs within these bounds. It may be that they should also only buy items off the player that fit into these broader categories but this might be too prescriptive.

For me the problem lies with the idea that there is no 'time' in underrail yet. Having time and the passage of time as a game mechanic would help with this sort of thing. Maybe the trader's inventory changes once a week as a trade caravan passes through. This could be implied or it could be written into the game in a manner similar to the wandering caravans in Fallout 3. After so many days you actually see a travelling trader who deals in medicines show up and spend some time with Doctor Pasqual, restocking Pasqual's supplies. If you happen to be there at the time then you can trade directly with the traveller. If not then you can trade with Pasqual who's inventory has changed.

I think Styg's already working on respawn timers but making time a more concrete part of the game would allow for more creative uses and also make the environment feel more alive.

If I was to introduce the passage of time in the way you suggested then I need to also implement other features (or change current ones) that would rely on it, otherwise there's no point in implementing it in the first place, as you undestand. The game is already feature packed and I'd rather spend my time now creating content.