Is my build hopeless? (minor spoilers)

[Anuovis]

Hello fellow underrailers,
I hope it's not too rude to make the first post asking for help. I figured this place would be the best to seek advice.

Anyhow, I just bought UnderRail and started playing it for the first time. Loving every moment of it but so many mechanics are very obscure and I heard this game can be rather unforgiving.

After reading some wiki and watching some youtubes, I came up with a sneaky thief-trapper-crossbower build. So far it has worked well, I can destroy rathounds and psi beetles, could deal with the raiders in the GMS place. But now that I decided to fight some bandits near Junkyard and mutants in depot A, it does not seem so effective any more. In fact, I feel it is starting to plainly suck and that makes me worried.

My build is this:

Level 8 (just levelled up)

Str 3
Dex 8
Agl 8 (+1)
Con 3
Per 11 (+1)
Will 4
Int 5

Skills: 50 in all of these - Throwing, Crossbows, Persuasio and everything under Subterfuge.
Feats: Aimed Shot, Pack Rathound, Snooping (probably shouldn't have...), Interloper, Concussive Shots, Sniper.

My character has opened every mechanical lock I came across and most electronic locks. Also pickpocketed every thug and their grandmother in Junkyard. Now I am swimming in cash but have no crafting skills whatsoever.

My main problem and worry is the very low damage output from the crossbow. I have a Scoped Zephyr which seems to be the best I have come across but it still does a pitiful 16-33 mechanical damage. Snipe is nice and so is aimed shot but even with those I can take on maybe one tougher enemy during my turn. Then I have to pew pew my 25 damage bolts that don't do much good when the enemy HP is often over 100. Also, anyone with a firearm almost rips me to shreds in one turn. Even dogs at Depot A can take more than half of my health in one turn. No good.

Traps and grenades help a lot but I had to use 2 bear traps, one frag mine (Mk1), a flashbang and a frag granade (Mk1) to dispatch the three raiders in the caves near Junkyard. Still, took me a few tries and I was almost dead by the end of it. I feel like I could cheese through the Depot A (maybe) but it's probably not even that tough compared to what lies ahead.

So yeah... I guess crafting would have helped but I am not even fighting enemies with tougher armour yet and my regular bolts seem next to useless. I didn't take any feats for special bolts yet but now I see they might be a pain to use without crafting anyway. Crossbows seem to be very feat intensive but I decided to skip some of those and picked other feats.

Did I screw up building my character? Should I start over?
Or am I missing something?

I would love to build an excellent thief with high Dex and high sneaking skill (so decent Agl?) who also has high enough Per for the secret places and trap spotting. I'd also love to have some persuasion and it seems keeping Will at 4 can do that for me. But crafting is also mandatory, no? And I am quite lost how to make a combat-capable character within these stats. Nerd Commando offers some good builds but now I am a little afraid to tweak them to my liking.

Any advice on how to save my current build or make another character would be mostly appreciated.
Thanks.

[Coaxl]

Well, crossbow builds are among the weaker builds you can create in Underrail, especially if this is your first game and you don't yet know what are the really powerful tools in a crossbow jockey's arsenal. Don't worry if Junkyard is hard, since it is actually one of the hardest locations in the game relative to the power level of the player tackling it (although you young'uns have it so easy! Back in the earlier versions, Junkyard actually used to be a lot more hardcore *shakes fist at sky*). Anyway, go ahead and abuse traps, they're one of your strongest tools.

Also, given that the three raiders near Junkyard are rather out of depth for a character just arriving at Junkyard, getting through them with only 5 consumables is a fairly decent trade. Bear traps are very useful, perhaps even more so than frag mine due to their immobilization effect, so abuse that - vendors often sell bear traps in packs of 15 or so.

Crafting is not mandatory, but probably useful for a beginner. As for the rest of your build - I'm not the resident build expert around here, but it looks kind of okay, except that if you don't use psi, there is no use in 4 Will - it'd have been better to dump it to 3. (Generally, in Underrail, you want to minmax your stats a lot.) Int 5 is also not ideal - Int 6-7 are where you get the good crafting feats, so that's what you should get if you want to craft. If not, then dropping Int to 3 is perfectly reasonable. Con 3 is acceptable on some builds (including a build like yours which specializes in indirect damage a lot), but it's a bit surprising that you decided to create a fragile character as your first.

It is up to you if you want to continue. If you play well enough, you probably can get through most of the game, but it might be a bit of a slog. (You might be totally stumped in the final few areas though.) My first build was also a crossbow user (I didn't use traps there, which made it even harder), and it was a painful experience, especially since certain parts of the game were harder back then. If you feel like you are not having fun at some point, consider starting over and picking an easier build - a heavily armored assault rifle user, a SMG specialist or a pure psi build are some of the easiest options in my opinion.

[Anuovis]

Thank you for the reply.

I have kept Will at 4 to avoid any penalties to Persuasion.
I was also planning to bump Int to 6 or 7, just wasn't sure how much crafting I wanted to do.
Con 3 was just a tradeoff to raise other stats.

I know I want to play a thief with a very developed Subterfuge tree. Would also like to spot secret places and have decent Persuasion.
Everything with this character worked like a charm, even better than I thought it would. But combat is really dragging me down.

Do you have any advice on how to make such a character into a decent fighter as well?

I though mine was too squishy for Melee (no dodge nor evasion) and Guns seemed really noisy so I went with Crossbows and Throwing as a secondary combat skill. Would happily use anything that worked with a thief build, including psi. But the game has no manual and all the information on the net is either very concrete builds (that I will probably tweak into something sub par) or really general information like the Wiki which is still quite limited or hard to understand unless you have experience within the actual game.

Would happily do my own reading and research, just don't know where to start.
Maybe I should just lower the difficulty and go with a suboptimal build but I quite enjoy the brutality of the enemies.

[Anuovis]

Just to narrow it down a little...

It would start as:
Str 3
Dex 8
Agl 6
Con 3
Per 10
Will 4
Int 6

I would go for max Guns, just a bit of Throwing, a lot of Subterfuge skills, some tech (to craft silenced guns and maybe bullets and maybe grenades). Also Persuasion and maybe some Mercantile if I have any points left. So it would be a thief but using (silenced) pistols and (silenced) SMGs instead of crossbows. Maybe even chemical pistols. Would ignore assault rifles and sniping, no strength to wield those. Also planting traps and mines before the battle, using nades on groups of enemies and flashbangs to stun and retreat.

As for the feats, I am not sure but would probably go with Expertise, Packrat, Aimed shot, Spec ops, Commando. And whatever else to become more mobile and sciency-crafty.

Would this give me enough firepower to go through the game? Also, another fragile character but I am hoping that stealth, high initiative, extra movement and such would keep me alive. Lots of hiding, hit and run.

Looks good on paper but then I thought the same thing with crossbows...

[Megaost]

Just to narrow it down a little...

It would start as:
Str 3
Dex 8
Agl 6
Con 3
Per 10
Will 4
Int 6

I would go for max Guns, just a bit of Throwing, a lot of Subterfuge skills, some tech (to craft silenced guns and maybe bullets and maybe grenades). Also Persuasion and maybe some Mercantile if I have any points left. So it would be a thief but using (silenced) pistols and (silenced) SMGs instead of crossbows. Maybe even chemical pistols. Would ignore assault rifles and sniping, no strength to wield those. Also planting traps and mines before the battle, using nades on groups of enemies and flashbangs to stun and retreat.

As for the feats, I am not sure but would probably go with Expertise, Packrat, Aimed shot, Spec ops, Commando. And whatever else to become more mobile and sciency-crafty.

Would this give me enough firepower to go through the game? Also, another fragile character but I am hoping that stealth, high initiative, extra movement and such would keep me alive. Lots of hiding, hit and run.

Looks good on paper but then I thought the same thing with crossbows...

I would go heavier on the minmaxing, especially if this is your first character(and difficulty level is also relevant here, but I will assume that you are playing on normal). Here are some of my thoughts as a presumably average-skilled Underrail gamer with a few characters and 200 hours under my belt:

If you want a stealthy pistol/SMG build you don't need 10 perception by a long shot. What you want on the other hand, is to max out dexterity, because dexterity decreases action point cost of firing pistols, SMG's and knives. I would also look at what your defense is going to be, because there will be a point in the game where you will get attacked, regardless of your skill at subterfuge.

To start this off, let's talk a bit about armor penalty:

Armor penalty reduces your dodge, evasion, stealth and movement points directly proportional to how high it is (not sure what the exact formula is). So lower armor penalty is better, but armor with lower armor penalty also offers less damage reduction, and herein lies the problem you will have to figure out.
Normally you either go for high health or high dodge/evasion. However, the latter will spread you thin on skillpoints, which is a major concern since you say you want to go with guns, throwing, stealth, several other subterfuge skills, crafting AND talking skills.

So basically you have to decide if you want to be a stealthy dodger/evader with very light armor and fewer skillpoints to spare, or a more tanky character with higher constitution, but also inevitably poorer stealth due to having to wear armor with a higher armor penalty. The most important part here is to have a plan, because Underrail is not very forgiving when it comes to placing attribute points and skillpoints all over the place.

With that in mind, let's look at those very things.
If your plan is stealthy gunslinger, I would consider something like this:

Str 3
Dex 10 (extra points go here every time unless you have a well thought out reason for not doing so)
Agi 10
Con 3
Per 4
Will 3
Int 7

This is a build that aims for SMG as main damage dealer, with throwing for grenades, and light armor with dodge/evasion maxed every level and possibly Nimble feat as defense. This is a build that works, and SMG's in particular are very strong main weapons.

As for the stat allocation:
I've already covered dex, strength it self explanatory, and high agility is simply to give you as good defense and stealth as possible, and the feat "Blitz". The agility is sort of negotiable though. Con 3 self explanatory dump stat. Per 4 just to avoid penalty to guns. Will 3, if you really want talking skills and you have points left for it (I doubt it), you can bump agi down to 9 and will up to 4, but in doing so you forsake the feat "Blitz", which is an excellent feat.

Int 7:
The only crafting feats you get at 6 int is Armor Sloping, Weaponsmith and Ballistics. Armor sloping is useless since you can't use heavy armor, Weaponsmith is useless unless you want to incorporate knives into a high dex build, and Ballistics is so-so, and not worth wasting an attribute point on imo. I'd either get int up to 7 (you should decrease perception anyway, so no problem here) or keep it at 4 just to avoid penalties. Int 7 gives you all the crafting feats you could be interested in, both offensive and defensive ones, and even ones for chemical and energy weapons.

As mentioned before, with this build, dodge/eva should be maxed every level. So should really most other things you decide to level up in this game, with some leeway for stuff like biology granted that you know what you are doing and what level you are aiming for. If you want to discard all of this build advice and just take a single piece of advice, the most important I can give is: Don't spread yourself thin. This is a game for specialists, not jack-of-all-trades.

[TrueNeutralEvGenius]

It's not unforgiving. When I played for for the first time my "build" was a complete mess, not a build at all, and I still finished the game without reading any builds or guides. Your build is okay. Don't destroy your fun and challenge with making a strong build. Imho. Enjoy this wonderful game.

[destroyor]

Your xbow build is not hopeless. It's not optimize but I'm sure you can still beat the game w/ it.

Use this and this as your guide. You can buy special bolts from Kendrick in junkyard and Quinton in SGS. You will eventually need to invest in crafting as I consider the ability to craft shock bolt MKIII + EMP grenades MKIII to be especially vital.

If you are having trouble beating junkyard depot A take a look at my guide. If you are still having trouble come back w/ your problem and we'll help you.

[Anuovis]

I will assume that you are playing on normal.

Yes, I am playing on normal.

Armor penalty reduces your dodge, evasion, stealth and movement points directly proportional to how high it is (not sure what the exact formula is). So lower armor penalty is better, but armor with lower armor penalty also offers less damage reduction, and herein lies the problem you will have to figure out.

Can't I just carry two armour suits around and swap when necessary? Also, I am planning on taking stealth (Interloper) and movement (Sprint, Hit and Run, Suppressive Fire) feats to be able to just run away from tough situations.

Normally you either go for high health or high dodge/evasion. However, the latter will spread you thin on skillpoints, which is a major concern since you say you want to go with guns, throwing, stealth, several other subterfuge skills, crafting AND talking skills.

Well, Guns would go to the max. Throwing - maybe 25 points or so. Subterfuge more or less to the max. Persuasion maybe up to 50 or 75. Crafting - I am planning on picking 2, at most 3 sciences. Mechanical and chemistry for guns, bullets and nades/mines. Then maybe some electrical or tailoring but probably not. I have no idea how high I need to raise them, I was just planning to explore the game and see.

If your plan is stealthy gunslinger, I would consider something like this:

Str 3
Dex 10 (extra points go here every time unless you have a well thought out reason for not doing so)
Agi 10
Con 3
Per 4
Will 3
Int 7

I was thinking more about a stealthy thief with guns but I guess you could call it that way?
I am a bit surprised I would need 16 Dex though, do I really? If I went up to 14 and just put the other 2 points wherever, would my build suffer a lot?

If you want to discard all of this build advice and just take a single piece of advice, the most important I can give is: Don't spread yourself thin. This is a game for specialists, not jack-of-all-trades.

Is being an excellent thief with excellent gun skills and then a bit of persuasion and some crafting already too much?

[Anuovis]

It's not unforgiving. When I played for for the first time my "build" was a complete mess, not a build at all, and I still finished the game without reading any builds or guides. Your build is okay. Don't destroy your fun and challenge with making a strong build. Imho. Enjoy this wonderful game.

Now that's some conflicting advice right there

[mattu]

I really like crossbow characters. There are certainly stronger builds out there, but crossbow + traps is a lot of fun. Crossbows was my first UR character, and I just now went back to crossbows for my first character on Hard difficulty.

Your character is kinda in trouble. Underrail is very much a combat game (stealth sometimes an alternative, but not always). At only L8 I might consider restarting, but on the other hand you still have ~2/3 of your levels and feats left to work with. This char is likely still winnable, but you need to turn your build more toward combat, and you're always going to limp a little from some of your early choices.

(I love UR but it can be a bit cruel to new players who make some mistakes in their first build.)

I would love to build an excellent thief with high Dex and high sneaking skill (so decent Agl?) who also has high enough Per for the secret places and trap spotting. I'd also love to have some persuasion and it seems keeping Will at 4 can do that for me. But crafting is also mandatory, no? And I am quite lost how to make a combat-capable character within these stats. Nerd Commando offers some good builds but now I am a little afraid to tweak them to my liking.

Thieving in UR is (IMO) mainly about stealth. You can steal a lot of stuff with stealth, and it's fun to sneak by big fights, too.

Crafting isn't mandatory, but a crossbow build wants it more than most. You really want to be able to craft the shop-ingredient special bolts, at least. You could pick those up from where you are now. (It takes a while to learn all the angles to crafting. I definitely didn't get it all on my first game. Can be pretty powerful, though.)

Persuasion is not a major skill in the game. You can take it for RPing reasons, but don't expect it to have a big effect on your overall char trajectory.

Study the feats available. (Use Show All Feats or whatever that checkbox is from the feats screen.) Picking good feats is always part of a good build, but as you noticed, a crossbows build is more feat-hungry than most.

Good luck. Glad you found this great game.

[TrueNeutralEvGenius]

Now that's some conflicting advice right there

And where do you see "conflict"? For a blind chicken even a cockle is a wheat.

[Anuovis]

Underrail is very much a combat game (stealth sometimes an alternative, but not always).

Does that mean that there will be situations where I absolutely can't rely on stealth whatsoever?

[Anuovis]

And where do you see "conflict"? For a blind chicken even a cockle is a wheat.

Well, if you insist...

It is up to you if you want to continue. If you play well enough, you probably can get through most of the game, but it might be a bit of a slog. (You might be totally stumped in the final few areas though.)

The most important part here is to have a plan, because Underrail is not very forgiving when it comes to placing attribute points and skillpoints all over the place.

It's not unforgiving. When I played for for the first time my "build" was a complete mess, not a build at all, and I still finished the game without reading any builds or guides.

Your advice stood out as slightly different, to put it mildly. I'd say this is probably the only time I have come across such an opinion. Pretty much every google result I've seen leads to very precise builds and/or stories how important it is to understand the character building mechanics if you want to complete the game.

I can appreciate people having different takes on it though.

[Anuovis]

Your xbow build is not hopeless. It's not optimize but I'm sure you can still beat the game w/ it.

Use this and this as your guide.

Thank you for this. Not exactly what I am looking for, though.

[Megaost]

I will assume that you are playing on normal.

Yes, I am playing on normal.

Armor penalty reduces your dodge, evasion, stealth and movement points directly proportional to how high it is (not sure what the exact formula is). So lower armor penalty is better, but armor with lower armor penalty also offers less damage reduction, and herein lies the problem you will have to figure out.

Can't I just carry two armour suits around and swap when necessary? Also, I am planning on taking stealth (Interloper) and movement (Sprint, Hit and Run, Suppressive Fire) feats to be able to just run away from tough situations.

Yes, you can do that, but the main point here is that for a stealthy low con character there is no point in using armor with high armor penalty, since it reduces your dodge/evasion as well in combat. So if you go for the dodge/evasion agility route of defense you want to use lighter armor, but that means you actually have to put skill points into dodge and evasion. That was the main point. 

Normally you either go for high health or high dodge/evasion. However, the latter will spread you thin on skillpoints, which is a major concern since you say you want to go with guns, throwing, stealth, several other subterfuge skills, crafting AND talking skills.

Well, Guns would go to the max. Throwing - maybe 25 points or so. Subterfuge more or less to the max. Persuasion maybe up to 50 or 75. Crafting - I am planning on picking 2, at most 3 sciences. Mechanical and chemistry for guns, bullets and nades/mines. Then maybe some electrical or tailoring but probably not. I have no idea how high I need to raise them, I was just planning to explore the game and see.

Alright, just keep in mind that with dodge and evasion thrown in that's another 10 skill points used each level. Keep in mind that a throwing skill of 25 is actually really low. You usually have to boost stuff quite a bit in this game due to scaling, and while throwing works a bit differently at least in regards to grenades, leaving a stat at 25 points for the rest of the game usually (not always, though) means 25 wasted skill points.

If your plan is stealthy gunslinger, I would consider something like this:

Str 3
Dex 10 (extra points go here every time unless you have a well thought out reason for not doing so)
Agi 10
Con 3
Per 4
Will 3
Int 7

I was thinking more about a stealthy thief with guns but I guess you could call it that way?
I am a bit surprised I would need 16 Dex though, do I really? If I went up to 14 and just put the other 2 points wherever, would my build suffer a lot?

No, you don't need 16. It's more a matter of where else do you need it more. The AP cost decrease of SMG/pistol/knife attacks that dexterity gives is not to be scoffed at. But by all means, it's fully possible to finish the game with a build far less focused and min-maxy than that.

If you want to discard all of this build advice and just take a single piece of advice, the most important I can give is: Don't spread yourself thin. This is a game for specialists, not jack-of-all-trades.

Is being an excellent thief with excellent gun skills and then a bit of persuasion and some crafting already too much?

That depends entirely on if you're cool with being subpar in any of those skills. In my experience, as long as you have solid defense (you will have this with max dodge/eva, decent agility and low armor penalty) and solid offense (you will have this with high dex and light weapon of your choice+nades) you can kinda do whatever you want, but as mentioned earlier, 25 points in something is just gonna feel like you wasted those points when you reach higher levels.

And I saw you ask earlier in the thread whether there will be situations in this game where combat is unavoidable: Yes.
Well technically you wrote "rely on stealth", but there are situations where you can't do that either. Those are rarer though, depending on exactly what you mean by relying on stealth. Basically you have to fight sometimes.