What to look for in weapons?

[wookie03]

I am playing though the game for the first time with a Stealth sniper who is currently using pistols as a sidearm. I am about 18 hours into the game and I am just now doing quests in Core City.  Now that my character is around level 10 I really don't know what to look for in weapons. I have been investing points into crafting but have not yet crafted any weapons because I am not sure what is good.

Is the main thing I am looking for is pure damage or should I focus on the crit multiplier? I traded for a new sniper that did slightly less damage or less so points but I think I am having a harder time one shoting people. I also have assess to the Drugnov but it doesn't seem very good.

I have been using pistols as my close range gun of chose but the damage has really fallen off and I can only do 2 shots a turn with them. Would I better of just equipping two snipers(one for the first shot, and one for the closer range action)?

Any help would be great. I really am enjoying this game, but the combat is starting to feel very hard against any human enemies. 

[Tygrende]

Now that my character is around level 10 I really don't know what to look for in weapons. I have been investing points into crafting but have not yet crafted any weapons because I am not sure what is good.

With sniper rifles I would say you generally want to focus on:

1. Being able to shoot twice per turn ( so getting the AP cost to 25 or less, or 35 and using Adrenaline/Blitz)
2. Precision bonuses (this is only true up to a certain point, I will talk about this later)
3. Critical damage bonus
4. Special attack damage bonus
5. Critical chance bonus
6. Base damage

Usually in that order, but this can change depending on preference, how far are you in the game and a ton of other factors.

Being able to shoot twice instead of once is a pretty big deal. That way you can one-shot 2 enemies on the first turn with Snipe + Aimed Shot and later be able to deal twice the amount of damage with regular shots, not to mention yuor chance of getting a random crit is twice as big.

Precision bonuses are extremely important early on when your hit chance is still not all that reliable. It doesn't really matter how much damage you can deal in a single shot if you miss. As your guns skill increases and when you find night vision goggles, precision bonuses stop being as important.

Crit damage is the bread and butter of snipers. Their high base damage together with high critcal damage and crits on demand with Aimed Shot allows you to deal enough damage to one shot basically anything in the game. Stack as much critical damage as possible, but remember precision might be more important early on.

Special damage bonus is something you get from smart goggles/weapons with smart modules. It multiplies theoverall damage of anything that sn't a regular shot (so Aimed Shot and Snipe for snipers) by a pretty big percentage. It's like a cherry on the cake thatm akes your already high critical damage even higher.

Critical chance is nice, but not nearly as important as everything above. Aimed Shot already provides a reliable guranteed crit every 3 turns. Get more critical chance when you can, but never at the cost of anything else.

Base damage is not nearly as important as rate of fire, critical damage or special attack damage. The difference between different sniper rifles are mostly negligible compared to how much of a difference other factors make. It's something you can safely ignore in favour of all other things.

When I'm playing sniper builds, this is how my weapon progression looks like:

Early game: 8.6 Corsair/Harbinger with bipod, smart module and standard scope. The frame is not really a choice, it's just that those two are what you are most likely to find early on. I choose 8.6 instead of 12.7 because I don't like the idea of 50 AP cost- any effect that reduces your AP, even by 1, will make you unable to shoot and effectively useless. The bonus base damage is not worth it. Bipod and standard scope for 20% bonus precision. Smart module for special attack damage.

Alternatively, you can go with 7.62 Corsair with the regular scope and no bipod. This will cost only 35 AP to shoot, so you can shoot twice with Adrenaline/Blitz. Don't reccomend it though, it's a little awkward and less consistent.

Mid game: 8.6 Reaper with bipod, smart module and anatomically-aware scope. The reaper frame has 25% crit bonus so it's a no-brainer, use it as soon as you find it. Anatomically-aware scope has 50% crit damage bonus and at this point we can deal with 10% less precision that the standard scope would give.

Again, a 7.62 reaper with no bipod is an option.

Late game: 7.62 spearhead with rapid reloader, smart module and anatomically-aware scope. Spearhead frames are only available in 7.62 and cost 30 AP instead of the usual 35. Together with rapid reloader (-20% AP cost) this drops to 24 AP, just enough to shoot twice instead of once every turn. Spearheads can't use bipods, but at this point we don't need added precision anymore.

All of this is crafted. You can't get most of those mods on looted/bought stuff, spearhead sniper rifles are crafting only as well.

I also have assess to the Drugnov but it doesn't seem very good

It can be good. The 25 AP cost makes it basically like a Spearhead but without the 50% crit damage and special attack damage snice it doesn't have any mods. This will make your damage quite low compared to other options, but smart goggles and crit damage from Sharpshooter/Critical Power should make it enough to still one-shot regular enemies. Give it a try.

I have been using pistols as my close range gun of chose but the damage has really fallen off and I can only do 2 shots a turn with them. Would I better of just equipping two snipers(one for the first shot, and one for the closer range action)?

Equipping two snipers doesn't make much sense. The whole point of a secondary is to use it when your primary is not an option.

Sniper rifles have very harsh move/close range penalties and 5 STR requirement. This means in any situation where you are cornered/have to move/get hit by Crippling strike your hit chance will be reduced greatly.

The point of pistols as a secondary is that they don't suffer from neither of those. They are perfect to take rid of weak enemies that are swarming you (like rathounds or spawns) or to make distance between you and the enemy with Kneecap Shot so you can use the sniper rifle again.

With 7 DEX and Gunslinger the AP cost of 9mm pistols should be 20 AP. If you take Point Shot, you can shoot 3 times per turn. With Rapid Fire you will be able to shoot 4 times.

[MirddinEmris]

To be honest, i never understood having pistols as secondary weapons for snipers. They require considerable investment to be just ok. SMGs on the other hand are sniper's best friends - with only two feats (Commando + Spec Ops) you will be able to deal quite a significant amount of damage to everyone who dares to get close to you. Even without a lot of points in Dex you can get 2-3 bursts per turn and since Burst is considered a special attack, your damage will increase even further due to Smart goggles and modules.

[destroyor]

I agree w/ MirddinEmris SMG would be a better sidearm than a pistol for a sniper char.

[Tygrende]

To be honest, i never understood having pistols as secondary weapons for snipers.

I will gladly explain it.

The point in using pistols as a secondary for snipers instead of SMGs/ARs is that to me damage of the secondary is not a top priority. Good damage is welcome of course, but it's the sniper rifle that is supposed to be the prime damage dealer.

For me what matters the most is utility other than damage, things that complement your sniper rifle and allow you to get rid of whatever makes you unable to use it instead of simply replacing it when someone gets close.

The strong points of pistols are:
1. +7 initiative. This is probably the most important thing, as together with paranoia this allows you to easily reach 30+ initative without too much effort. I can imagine some people thinking that you don't need initiative whn you have stealth, but this couldn't be more wrong. There are plenty of fights where starting the fight with stealth is not an option, Arena being the best example. Other than that, there are a few fights here and there that are initiated after dialogue/cutscene. Not to mention those times where you simply make a mistake and enemies get a drop on you.

I feel like having high initiative is really underrated.

2. Neo Lugers with laser sights have a total of 15% precision bonus (the tight, reliable damage range is very good as well). SMGs and ARs have at most 10%.This makes them the best choice for making sure that Kneecap Shot hits which allows you to make space between you and the melee enemy, which furher allows you to use the sniper rifle. The damage of the Kneecap Shot is irrelevant, I only need it to hit.

3. Pistols have a natural synergy with sniper rifles because Sharpshooter also works with pistols, which basically makes them have 30% more crit damage that SMGs/ARs, even more after Critical Power. This is minor because as I said damage is not a big deal, but it's something to consider.

They require considerable investment to be just ok.

I wouldn't say it's that considerable. Gunslinger and Kneecap Shot are the bare minimum that you need in order to use pistols the way I described. Point Shot and Rapid Fire are just welcome bonuses that you don't necessarily need. Opportunist and Execute are completely unnecessary.

SMGs on the other hand are sniper's best friends - with only two feats (Commando + Spec Ops) you will be able to deal quite a significant amount of damage to everyone who dares to get close to you.

I fail to see why you would even bother with SMGs as a secondary if you are not going to take Kneecap Shot. If all you are concerned about is damage up close and don't intent to use the secondary to make space, you will be better off with ARs that wil ldeal more damage and require even less investment.

I see SMGs as a middle road between pistols and ARs. Not as much damage as ARs, but more utility in the form of no STR requirement and Kneecap Shot. Not as much utility as pistols, but more damage.

Even without a lot of points in Dex you can get 2-3 bursts per turn and since Burst is considered a special attack, your damage will increase even further due to Smart goggles and modules.

The problem with bursts is that while they look good on paper and certainly work good when the build is centered around them, they are usually overkill for a secondary. I don't need to put 5 bullets into a rathound or a spawn, which is what I will usually use my secondary for.

Anything tougher that that, I'm using my primary. The secondary is simply means to get my primary to work, so to say.

It's a different approach. All 3 options (pistols, SMGs, ARs) have their ups and downs, it all comes down to preference.

[Bruno]

I feel like having high initiative is really underrated.

This is so true. With ok dex and agi scores (wich you have), gunslinger, paranoia and always have your pistol in hand, you have excellent initiative that will save your day many many times, in situations as described above.

It does not help to be a stealth master when dialogue ends and you are put directly in combat, with mediocre initiative relying on a deadly first strike. High initiative will be your best friend.

This is less important for high armor/constitution grunts, but for a squishy glass cannon - you really really want to go first. Pistols with gunslinger are your best friend.

[MirddinEmris]

Ok, i understand your point about initiative (i like high initiative myself), though after playing sniper on hard i say that the only place you really need it is the Arena. With something like 7 Agi 7 Dex and Paranoia, you already have quite high initiative of 24. Also, when i said about investment, i meant that without Dex as you primary attribute, they aren't very good (or even just good). Though the fact that SMG need only 2 feats to be awesome is of course a big factor.

2. Neo Lugers with laser sights have a total of 15% precision bonus (the tight, reliable damage range is very good as well). SMGs and ARs have at most 10%.This makes them the best choice for making sure that Kneecap Shot hits which allows you to make space between you and the melee enemy, which furher allows you to use the sniper rifle. The damage of the Kneecap Shot is irrelevant, I only need it to hit.

And i only need to burst once or twice to kill this guy. Even with 95% accuracy there is a chance for miss, but i don't remember two bursts failing to solve a problem of melee enemies trying to get close. It's also AP friendly since Kneecap shot doesn't kill your enemy and you need to fire your rifle to finish the job, while after two bursts with smg i still can shot some other guy with Spearhead and since i didn't have to move (because the reason i had to move is dead now), i don't have penalties for that. Also, 5% accuracy on high Per character with night vision goggles is not very useful.

And in case of 2+ melee guys, SMGs have even bigger advantage since burst doesn't have cooldown unlike Kneecap shot.

3. Pistols have a natural synergy with sniper rifles because Sharpshooter also works with pistols, which basically makes them have 30% more crit damage that SMGs/ARs, even more after Critical Power. This is minor because as I said damage is not a big deal, but it's something to consider.

And SMGs have natural synergy with snipers because they get increased damage from Smart goggles - around 30-50% increase on ALL your damage from SMG. Compared to that 75% increase in critical damage (50% on Neo Luger, since it has 90% base crit damage) with less than 10% crit chance, is not very much.

I see SMGs as a middle road between pistols and ARs. Not as much damage as ARs, but more utility in the form of no STR requirement and Kneecap Shot. Not as much utility as pistols, but more damage.

The only utility i see from pistols that i can't get from SMGs is initiative increase.

The problem with bursts is that while they look good on paper and certainly work good when the build is centered around them, they are usually overkill for a secondary. I don't need to put 5 bullets into a rathound or a spawn, which is what I will usually use my secondary for.

Anything tougher that that, I'm using my primary. The secondary is simply means to get my primary to work, so to say.

It's a different approach. All 3 options (pistols, SMGs, ARs) have their ups and downs, it all comes down to preference.

SMGs are even better to deal with small trash mobs since they have less AP cost than pistols  (even if damage is slightly lesser, it's more than enough for them) in case there is only one or two of them. And when there is a lot, bursts are even more effective AP to kill count wise.

Some weapons have more ups than downs while others have more downs than ups. Of course, given sufficient degree of optimization (though we can't assume that for new guys), most weapon choices are viable in a sense of being able to finish the game (except for pure throwing knives build, perhaps). That doesn't mean that the difference is in preferences only - pistols are weaker than SMGs, both as primary and as secondary.

[Tygrende]

Ok, i understand your point about initiative (i like high initiative myself), though after playing sniper on hard i say that the only place you really need it is the Arena.

Arena is probably the best example and it's where the bonus initiative will be the most useful, but there's plenty of other fights where you won't be able to start from stealth.

Bandits outside SGS if you decide to confront them, bandits in GMS if you decide to talk with the leader, Rathound King if you decide to ask Edgar for help/tell him a rathound joke, Acid Hunters, Black Crawler Gang, Faceless Commander and his troops if you refuse to hand out the Cube, getting caught sneaking around at port Zenith  or simply making a mistake while in stealth and getting spotted by enemies. There's more and while many of those can be also started out from stealth, you will miss the dialogue and possibly satisfaction. Pistols allow you to start the fight on your own terms regardless of your choices/mistakes.

With something like 7 Agi 7 Dex and Paranoia, you already have quite high initiative of 24.

Having 20% chance to act before Carnifex is not exactly what I would call "high". You can expect most enemies to have at least 20+ initiative , 15 at best. Considering you will be usually facing multiple enemies, your chance to act first drops considerably.

And i only need to burst once or twice to kill this guy. Even with 95% accuracy there is a chance for miss, but i don't remember two bursts failing to solve a problem of melee enemies trying to get close.

I seriously doubt one or two bursts were enough to kill Carnifex, much less the problem of him getting next to you on the first turn. Also doubt they were enough to deal with other tough melee enemies such as Balor etc. Anything else is squishy enough to be killed with a pistol with no problems.

On the other hand, not only do pistols increase your chance of him not getting the first turn considerably, even if he does get the first turn, Kneecap Shot is going to keep him at bay in the next one.

It's also AP friendly since Kneecap shot doesn't kill your enemy and you need to fire your rifle to finish the job, while after two bursts with smg i still can shot some other guy with Spearhead and since i didn't have to move (because the reason i had to move is dead now), i don't have penalties for that.

This assumes you are fighting multiple melee enemies tanky enough to necessitate an entire burst to kill them. In my experience this never happens. The only melee enemies that may necessitate the use of a secondary are either swarms of rathounds/spawns/crawlers, stealthy cutthroats or Arena gladiators. In the first case, pistol damage is adequate. In the second and third one it's a 1v1 fight.

Also, 5% accuracy on high Per character with night vision goggles is not very useful.

It is when it matters. I doubt you will have 95% chance to hit against Carnfiex.

You can probably see I mention Carnifex a lot, that's because he's a perfect example of a truly tough melee enemy.

And in case of 2+ melee guys, SMGs have even bigger advantage since burst doesn't have cooldown unlike Kneecap shot.

If 2+ melee guys managed to get close they are rathounds/spawns/crawlers. Pistol damage is perfectly adequate in that case.

And SMGs have natural synergy with snipers because they get increased damage from Smart goggles - around 30-50% increase on ALL your damage from SMG. Compared to that 75% increase in critical damage (50% on Neo Luger, since it has 90% base crit damage) with less than 10% crit chance, is not very much.

This was really a minor point because I don't consider damage to be a priority for the secondary weapon. Pistols will get the smart bonus on kneecap shot and point shot/rapid fire if you decide to take them. If you don't, it's not a big deal.

The only utility i see from pistols that i can't get from SMGs is initiative increase.

Which is the most imporant one. But the point is I don't see why would you go with SMGs instead of ARs if you are so concerned with damage and don't take Kneecap Shot. ARs will deal more damage, allow you to ignore DEX completly and will only need Commando. You don't even need to spend another attribute point on STR, you can just eat rathound barbecue until you get the Steyr. Getting hit by crippling strike is easy enough to fix with adrenaline.

SMGs are even better to deal with small trash mobs since they have less AP cost than pistols  (even if damage is slightly lesser, it's more than enough for them) in case there is only one or two of them. And when there is a lot, bursts are even more effective AP to kill count wise.

Trying to kill multiple enemies with a burst is very unreliable if you ask me. The point about SMGs having less AP cost but enough damage to kill trash is valid, but doesn't make up for the lack of utility to me.

Some weapons have more ups than downs while others have more downs than ups. Of course, given sufficient degree of optimization (though we can't assume that for new guys), most weapon choices are viable in a sense of being able to finish the game (except for pure throwing knives build, perhaps). That doesn't mean that the difference is in preferences only - pistols are weaker than SMGs, both as primary and as secondary.

I disagree. To me it seems it's simply a difference in playstyle. It sounds like you are not really using the sniper rifle as a primary and the SMG as a secondary, it sounds more like you are using them both to a similar degree.

In my multiple sniper playthroughs, including a few ironmans (only one successful though), I barely ever use my secondary. In the vast majority of situations there is simply no reason to. Once I get the spearhead it's not uncommon to just take a step back and shoot with the move penalty, a 15% precision penalty is not a big deal when the hit chance was 95% to begin with. The secondary is only reserved for swarms of trash or truly dangerous melee enemies.

[MirddinEmris]

Carnifex is a corner case, basing everything around him is not really convincing.

Having 20% chance to act before Carnifex is not exactly what I would call "high". You can expect most enemies to have at least 20+ initiative , 15 at best. Considering you will be usually facing multiple enemies, your chance to act first drops considerably.

You don't need to act first, you just need to act before most. Unless you are playing 0 dodge and evasion character of course.

I seriously doubt one or two bursts were enough to kill Carnifex, much less the problem of him getting next to you on the first turn. Also doubt they were enough to deal with other tough melee enemies such as Balor etc.

And i seriously doubt that you can rely on your Kneecap shot to reliably work against Carnifex with his high evasion and yell. The argument about Balor is really strange - why would i try to kill primary target with secondary weapon? I'd either kill him with Snipe or wait in the bedroom in stealth with taser and then he goes down in 4 burst from silenced smg filled with W2C ammo (taser - 10 AP, 3 burst - 60 AP + one burst free). I don't think you can kill him with a silenced pistol in one turn.

Anything else is squishy enough to be killed with a pistol with no problems.

On the other hand, not only do pistols increase your chance of him not getting the first turn considerably, even if he does get the first turn, Kneecap Shot is going to keep him at bay in the next one.

No, it's not. Unless you spec for pistols, most melee enemies are, in fact, not squishy enough to kill with a pistol in one turn. Besides, even if they were, there is a big difference between killing them in one turn and killing them in 1-2 bursts (with a good chance of damaging every enemy near them) and then being able to fire your main weapon.

This assumes you are fighting multiple melee enemies tanky enough to necessitate an entire burst to kill them. In my experience this never happens. The only melee enemies that may necessitate the use of a secondary are either swarms of rathounds/spawns/crawlers, stealthy cutthroats or Arena gladiators. In the first case, pistol damage is adequate. In the second and third one it's a 1v1 fight.

It doesn't assume that. It assumes you are fighting several enemies, some of them melee, some - ranged. With SMG you can still shoot your rifle at ranged enemy after dealing with melee getting in your face. And this situation is like half of the fights in the game. Almost all bandits and military is a mixed group.

If 2+ melee guys managed to get close they are rathounds/spawns/crawlers. Pistol damage is perfectly adequate in that case.

Now you are just contradicting yourself) What about fights you mentioned early? Like Black Crawlers place or fighting Faceless? In all those case, you'll have to deal with enemies that are not easy trash mobs and a lot of them are melee. Pistol is really not enough in these fights, and it can really stop you from advancing in the game.

Also, even if they are rathounds/burrowers, i remember several places in the DC where you have to deal with a LOT of them, including ancient rathounds and burrowers warriors. And yes, you can get on with stealth, but as you mentioned you can always make a mistake. I don't think that pistol will do you any good, while SMG can carry you.

This was really a minor point because I don't consider damage to be a priority for the secondary weapon. Pistols will get the smart bonus on kneecap shot and point shot/rapid fire if you decide to take them. If you don't, it's not a big deal.

It's a minor point for pistols, but not for SMG. Rapid Fire and Point shot will get a bonus IF you decide to spend another two feats on them. For a secondary weapon that doesn't do much damage.

Thing with SMG is that it's not really a secondary weapon, it's more like a second main one. It deals damage that is comparable to your sniper (at least in a sense of possible kill count) and you use it when you can't use you sniper rifle. That way you cover more bases and get quite an amount of flexibility for your character that overshadows small utility from pistols. So yeah, it is a big deal.

Which is the most imporant one. But the point is I don't see why would you go with SMGs instead of ARs if you are so concerned with damage and don't take Kneecap Shot.

Because SMG cost less AP (smallest AP cost per shot for all firearms and only 2x for burst) while still doing considerable damage. They require only two feats to be awesome. You can make silent SMG and use it when you don't want to fight all the enemies on the map at once and it really benefits usual sniper playstyle. BTW, you can also take Kneecap shot if you really want. I did when i played sniper, but i found out that i don't use it all that often - most of the time, it's easier to just kill a guy who got too close rather then fire one shot at him and run.

Trying to kill multiple enemies with a burst is very unreliable if you ask me.

With one? Yes. With 2-4? No, it's quite reliable.

I disagree. To me it seems it's simply a difference in playstyle. It sounds like you are not really using the sniper rifle as a primary and the SMG as a secondary, it sounds more like you are using them both to a similar degree.

Yes, because unlike pistols SMGs allows you to use at as second main with minimal investment. More flexibility in fighting tactics is never a bad thing.

[Tygrende]

Carnifex is a corner case, basing everything around him is not really convincing.

He's not just a corner case, he's the worst-case scenario. Basing everything on a worst-case scenario is absolutely rational.

You don't need to act first, you just need to act before most. Unless you are playing 0 dodge and evasion character of course.

Acting first is a major advantage. As you said yourself, given sufficient degree of optimization, everything is viable. But acting first is definetly better than acting before most.

And i seriously doubt that you can rely on your Kneecap shot to reliably work against Carnifex with his high evasion and yell.

My strategy in case of Carnifex getting the first turn is to tase him first.

If the taser works, the next step is Aimed Shot with the move penalty since he will have no evasion and the hit chance will be 79% (for some reason it drops from 95% to 79% instead of 80%). If it hits, it's over. If it misses, the next step is Kneecap Shot that will have 95% chance to hit. If it hits, I have enough time to keep Carnifex at bay. If it doesn't, I will use a flashbang on the next turn and re-stealth.

If the taser gets resisted, the next step is flashbang. If the flashbang gets resisted, the next step in kneecap shot with about 60-70% chance to hit. If that misses too, I'm pretty much out of options, but that never happened since all those things failing at the same time is mathematically unlikely.

The point here is that Kneecap Shot is just one of the many forms of CC. It's not something I rely solely on against Carnifex, it's one of many failsafes and it works perfectly for that purpose. On the other I would have no use for SMG bursts here.

No, it's not. Unless you spec for pistols, most melee enemies are, in fact, not squishy enough to kill with a pistol in one turn. Besides, even if they were, there is a big difference between killing them in one turn and killing them in 1-2 bursts (with a good chance of damaging every enemy near them) and then being able to fire your main weapon.

I don't need to use my secondary against most melee enemies. In most cases you are given enough room and time to shoot them down with the sniper rifle.

It doesn't assume that. It assumes you are fighting several enemies, some of them melee, some - ranged. With SMG you can still shoot your rifle at ranged enemy after dealing with melee getting in your face. And this situation is like half of the fights in the game. Almost all bandits and military is a mixed group.

If I'm fighting a mixed group, I'm able to kill the melee guys before they even have a chance to get near me.

As I said before, the only cases where I would ever need to use a secondary are: swarms of trash, stealth users and Arena gladiators. This is because those are the only cases where an enemy can get close before getting killed with a sniper rifle. In literally all other cases, I am given enough room and time to deal with melee enemies long before they even have a chance to get near. At best I might use a kneecap shot to slow the fastest one down.

Now you are just contradicting yourself) What about fights you mentioned early? Like Black Crawlers place or fighting Faceless? In all those case, you'll have to deal with enemies that are not easy trash mobs and a lot of them are melee.

I'm not contradicting myself- again, there is no need to use the secondary in those fights whatsoever. A kneecap shot at best.

Pistol is really not enough in these fights, and it can really stop you from advancing in the game.

The pistol is generally not going to be used in those fights because there is no need for it.

Also, even if they are rathounds/burrowers, i remember several places in the DC where you have to deal with a LOT of them, including ancient rathounds and burrowers warriors. And yes, you can get on with stealth, but as you mentioned you can always make a mistake. I don't think that pistol will do you any good, while SMG can carry you.

There are two hordes of rathounds in DC, but both of them can be engaged at distance and thinned before they start getting close or simply kitted.

I'm not using the pistol for burrowers themselves, only spawns because of their high movement speed and low HP. Everything else is slow enough to be  easily killed with a sniper rifle.

In both cases, pistols is more than adequate.

It's a minor point for pistols, but not for SMG. Rapid Fire and Point shot will get a bonus IF you decide to spend another two feats on them. For a secondary weapon that doesn't do much damage.

Which is why they are not necessary feats to take. I might take them if I can afford them, which is usually the case since sniper rifles don't require that many feats to begin with.

Thing with SMG is that it's not really a secondary weapon, it's more like a second main one.

Which I think is the what makes our playstyles different. When I'm playing a sniper, I'm playing a sniper, not a sniper/something hybrid with two main weapons. I'm not looking for another damage source, I'm already holding the holy grail of damage in my first weapon slot. I'm looking for something that will complement it, not replace it.

Because SMG cost less AP (smallest AP cost per shot for all firearms and only 2x for burst) while still doing considerable damage. They require only two feats to be awesome.

Without heavy investment in DEX, the AP cost of SMGs and a rapid Hornet will be about the same. Even with Spec Ops 2x bursts, the overall damage potential of ARs is much greater than that of SMGs. ARs only require one feat to be an awesome secondary. Really, if all you care about is damage, there is no reason whatsoever to use an SMG over AR. ARs are a straight upgrade over SMGs that will also take less investment in this context.

You can make silent SMG and use it when you don't want to fight all the enemies on the map at once and it really benefits usual sniper playstyle.

Silenced weapon is not something you will lbe using regulary though, so you might as well carry both the AR and a silenced SMG.

BTW, you can also take Kneecap shot if you really want. I did when i played sniper, but i found out that i don't use it all that often - most of the time, it's easier to just kill a guy who got too close rather then fire one shot at him and run.

If that's the case, ARs would serve you much better.

With one? Yes. With 2-4? No, it's quite reliable.

It is pretty unreliable regardless. If you expect to kill something with a stray bullet in the burst cone, you might as well just shoot it with a regular shot.

Yes, because unlike pistols SMGs allows you to use at as second main with minimal investment. More flexibility in fighting tactics is never a bad thing.

It's not a bad thing, but the way I play it's redundant. I'd rather start the fight first when it truly matters than get a second damage source that can't accomplish anything the first one couldn't.

[destroyor]

Without heavy investment in DEX, the AP cost of SMGs and a rapid Hornet will be about the same. Even with Spec Ops 2x bursts, the overall damage potential of ARs is much greater than that of SMGs. ARs only require one feat to be an awesome secondary. Really, if all you care about is damage, there is no reason whatsoever to use an SMG over AR. ARs are a straight upgrade over SMGs that will also take less investment in this context.

AR is NOT a straight upgrade over SMGs. They actually play very differently. You don't need heavy investment in DEX in order to see a night and day difference between AR and SMG. With 6 DEX and Spec Ops, you can burst a Smart Rapid 7.62mm Jaguar SMG at 18AP, which is a lifesaver as it fits perfectly within the 20AP from adrenaline shot. The fastest possible burst from an AR is 9*3 = 27 AP. SMGs are only effective when you burst at close range, preferably point blank. If you do this w/ special bullets it's pretty much a guarantee 1 burst 1 kill.

BTW, you can also take Kneecap shot if you really want. I did when i played sniper, but i found out that i don't use it all that often - most of the time, it's easier to just kill a guy who got too close rather then fire one shot at him and run.

If that's the case, ARs would serve you much better.

Not true, SMG is the better choice due to the lower AP cost.

With one? Yes. With 2-4? No, it's quite reliable.

It is pretty unreliable regardless. If you expect to kill something with a stray bullet in the burst cone, you might as well just shoot it with a regular shot.

Remember we are talking about melee enemies here, most likely at point blank range, SMG burst is very effective here.

Yes, because unlike pistols SMGs allows you to use at as second main with minimal investment. More flexibility in fighting tactics is never a bad thing.

It's not a bad thing, but the way I play it's redundant. I'd rather start the fight first when it truly matters than get a second damage source that can't accomplish anything the first one couldn't.

It seems like your main selling point of a pistol is accuracy and Kneecap Shot which seems pretty weak to me. A pistol might be more accurate per bullet but you only get 1 shot. A burst fires 5 bullets at reduced accuracy but at point blank range it's mathematically impossible for it to be less accurate comparing it to a pistol shot. In fact, I would say SMG is much more effective due to its high chance to crit (5 vs. 1).
You know you can kneecap shot w/ an SMG right?

[MirddinEmris]

He's not just a corner case, he's the worst-case scenario. Basing everything on a worst-case scenario is absolutely rational.

It's not a worst-case scenario. Worst-case scenario is sneaking through Faceless block post and bumping into Gaunt and remembering that you last save is about 4-5 hours old. He is a corner case because you are fighting under conditions that you encounter only once in the game. Basing everything on such fight is not rational.

Acting first is a major advantage. As you said yourself, given sufficient degree of optimization, everything is viable. But acting first is definetly better than acting before most.

And you will have this advantage quite often anyway. Acting before most is quite sufficient. It's not as good as acting first, but it's still better than limiting your options and effectiveness in the fight itself.

My strategy in case of Carnifex getting the first turn is to tase him first.

If the taser works, the next step is Aimed Shot with the move penalty since he will have no evasion and the hit chance will be 79% (for some reason it drops from 95% to 79% instead of 80%). If it hits, it's over. If it misses, the next step is Kneecap Shot that will have 95% chance to hit. If it hits, I have enough time to keep Carnifex at bay. If it doesn't, I will use a flashbang on the next turn and re-stealth.

If the taser gets resisted, the next step is flashbang. If the flashbang gets resisted, the next step in kneecap shot with about 60-70% chance to hit. If that misses too, I'm pretty much out of options, but that never happened since all those things failing at the same time is mathematically unlikely.

The point here is that Kneecap Shot is just one of the many forms of CC. It's not something I rely solely on against Carnifex, it's one of many failsafes and it works perfectly for that purpose. On the other I would have no use for SMG bursts here.

I'd say this tactics is needlessly elaborated. I use Quick Tinkering to trap him and then chip away his health with SMG bursts, either killing him in one round or after his morphine shot expired. Also i craft low frequency shield specifically for this fight and turn it on before i get into arena. By the time the fight starts it's mostly drained, but still there remains enough for me to survive the round in most cases.

Besides, with your tactics if you had SMG, you could just kill him with bursts after tasing him. And it has a 100% success rate (the killing part, not the taser).

There are two hordes of rathounds in DC, but both of them can be engaged at distance and thinned before they start getting close or simply kitted.

Unless you make a mistake. In which case you need to reload, because having 2+ tough melee enemies up close and personal is not something pistol can handle, while i can still manage this situation. Same for burrowers. Double for faceless.

Which I think is the what makes our playstyles different. When I'm playing a sniper, I'm playing a sniper, not a sniper/something hybrid with two main weapons. I'm not looking for another damage source, I'm already holding the holy grail of damage in my first weapon slot. I'm looking for something that will complement it, not replace it.

It's not really an argument. It's still a sniper, just with more options. And it's not just "another damage source", it's a source of a very good damage in situations where you can't use your other source effectively, so i can't see how it's a "replacement". I get flexibility AND utility, like being able to kill enemies silently, which is not really possible with pistols without specializing in them. If i'm spending character resources on something, i at least make sure that this something is a worthwhile investment.

Btw, i wouldn't say that sniper is a holy grail of damage, unless it's in a most technical sense. True it can do shitload of damage, but this damage is usually to a 1-2 targets. If you compare by kills/round then it looses to a properly built SMG and AR builds, sometimes even to a sledgehammers.

Without heavy investment in DEX, the AP cost of SMGs and a rapid Hornet will be about the same. Even with Spec Ops 2x bursts, the overall damage potential of ARs is much greater than that of SMGs. ARs only require one feat to be an awesome secondary. Really, if all you care about is damage, there is no reason whatsoever to use an SMG over AR. ARs are a straight upgrade over SMGs that will also take less investment in this context.

I thought i gave several examples why. Burst from SMG - 20 AP (or slightly less), which means you can kill melee guy who got too close and then shoot your rifle. You can't do than with AR without adrenaline shot. They are not even close to be "about the same". ARs also can's make stealth kills. Oh, and AR can't use Kneecap Shot. So no, AR is not really awesome secondary for snipers (though sniper rifle can be awesome secondary for AR).

Damage is not the only thing i care, i though that can be quite clear from my posts. Seriously...

[MirddinEmris]

It seems like your main selling point of a pistol is accuracy and Kneecap Shot which seems pretty weak to me. A pistol might be more accurate per bullet but you only get 1 shot. A burst fires 5 bullets at reduced accuracy but at point blank range it's mathematically impossible for it to be less accurate comparing it to a pistol shot. In fact, I would say SMG is much more effective due to its high chance to crit (5 vs. 1).
You know you can kneecap shot w/ an SMG right?

Well, he also mentions increase in initiative with Gunslinger.

[Tygrende]

With 6 DEX and Spec Ops, you can burst a Smart Rapid 7.62mm Jaguar SMG at 18AP, which is a lifesaver as it fits perfectly within the 20AP from adrenaline shot. The fastest possible burst from an AR is 9*3 = 27 AP.

I guess that's a valid point, but I rarely ever use adrenaline shot unless hit by crippling strike or when I want to throw a grenade after 2 shots from a sniper rifle.

By the way I think 7.62 steelcat would be better for that purpose, with 6 DEX and Spec Ops burst will cost 20 AP so still enough but will deal more damage and much more critical damage.

Remember we are talking about melee enemies here, most likely at point blank range, SMG burst is very effective here.

If you are shooting a burst at point blank range you are not likely to miss and therefore not likely to hit other targets within the burst cone.

It seems like your main selling point of a pistol is accuracy and Kneecap Shot which seems pretty weak to me.

I said multiple time that the bonus initiative is the main selling point. SMGs can still have Kneecap Shot and 10% accuracy with laser sight so it would be a no-brainer if not for the initiative bonus.

A pistol might be more accurate per bullet but you only get 1 shot. A burst fires 5 bullets at reduced accuracy but at point blank range it's mathematically impossible for it to be less accurate comparing it to a pistol shot. In fact, I would say SMG is much more effective due to its high chance to crit (5 vs. 1).

I also said that the bonus precision is supposed to make the kneecap shot more likely to hit, not improve the damage. SMG beat pistols by a long shot when it comes to damage but again, it's not a priority to me.






 

[Tygrende]

It's not a worst-case scenario. Worst-case scenario is sneaking through Faceless block post and bumping into Gaunt and remembering that you last save is about 4-5 hours old.

I finished the game twice being hostile to faceless and actually never had that happen to me. I guess it's because I always switched to motion-tracking goggles when wandering around faceless territory.

Together with Paranoia and medicore/high PER (the first time was with 15 PER, the other with 8 ), it was very easy to detect gaunts long before they detect you. Losing the smart goggles bonus damage was no big deal since it was overkill against gaunts.

But even if I did bump into a gaunt, the initiative would be checked. Gaunts have really high 35 initiative. With gunslinger and 7 DEX/7 AGI my initiative would be 31, so the chance to act first would be slightly less than 25%. Less than perfect but 1 out of 4 times I would act first. Without gunslinger it would be only 24, sligthly less than 3% to act first, very unlikely to happen.

Also I don't really see how SMG gives you that much of an advantage in this situation. If you bump into gaunt and lose the initiative check, he will simply poison you and disappear. When he comes back it will be easy enough to get him out of stealth with a flare/flashbang/grenade and use the sniper rifle at range. I admit it would be much better than a pistol at getting rid of pseudo-spatial projections though.

By the way, 4-5 hours is a long time, I think you would get plenty of area transition autosaves in that period of time.

He is a corner case because you are fighting under conditions that you encounter only once in the game. Basing everything on such fight is not rational.

It's irrelevant how often do you encounter him in the game, the encounter still exists and is probably the most challenging melee enemy in the game. If there is anything you truly need to prepare for it's that fight.

And you will have this advantage quite often anyway. Acting before most is quite sufficient. It's not as good as acting first, but it's still better than limiting your options and effectiveness in the fight itself.

Acting first instead of before most is a huge advantage, both offensive and defensive wise. To me it's well worth losing some of the damage potential of my secondary weapon.

I'd say this tactics is needlessly elaborated. I use Quick Tinkering to trap him and then chip away his health with SMG bursts, either killing him in one round or after his morphine shot expired.

It's only as elaborated as it needs to be.

Quick Tinkering is viable too, even more in fact. That said, I have a personal issue with Quick Tinkering, it's just too good and completly trivalizes melee enemies. It's instant and it's so easy to predict enemy movement it can be set right under them. The worst part is it's cooldowns is only 2 turns, shorter than the duration of bear trap immobilization. You can abuse this to keep an melee enemy immobilized indefinitely, or even worse, keep him in a doorway to make it impossible for all other enemies to reach you or even get a line of sight to shoot you. It's almost cheating if you ask me.

Not saying you shouldn't use it because you can, it's in the game for a reason after all, but it's not for me.

Also i craft low frequency shield specifically for this fight and turn it on before i get into arena. By the time the fight starts it's mostly drained, but still there remains enough for me to survive the round in most cases.

My endgame efficient double low freq shields made from at least 120-130 modulators still ony have 23 threshold against very slow attacks. Carnifex uses gloves which bypass 80% of the shield threshold. I just tested and that leaves you with only 4 damage reduction on each hit. Since Carnifex only hits 2-3 times on the first turn, that saves you 8-12 health. That's definetly not what makes you survive the first turn.

Besides, with your tactics if you had SMG, you could just kill him with bursts after tasing him. And it has a 100% success rate (the killing part, not the taser)

That's correct. But I'm also less likely to win initative, which is really important. I don't think it's mentioned on the wiki but Carnifex has Cheap Shots- he has 15% chance to incapacitate you on every attack and 20% to stun on 3rd hit with combo. He will hit you 2-3 times on the first turn depending on what gloves he gets. If he attack you 3 times, there's a good chance you will be stunned/incapacitated. If that happens, there's a very small chance you will survive the next turn.

You can actually deal quite a bit of damage with a pistol when he's stunned too if you decide to sacrifice the Aimed Shot. Considering he's kneecaped and that the pistol is going ot have a really good precision, it's enough to kill him that way as well. Longer, but just as easy.

Unless you make a mistake. In which case you need to reload, because having 2+ tough melee enemies up close and personal is not something pistol can handle, while i can still manage this situation. Same for burrowers. Double for faceless.

How can you make a mistake when running away from rathounds? At this point in the game only the ancient ones are a threat and those will be dead long before they are close. Alphas and regular ones die like flies and can't even get past the shield.

Same goes for burrowers, only warriors are a threat but they are few and very slow. Regular burrowers can't get past the shields, spawns can't get past the threshold of even the weakest armors.

Faceless Gaunts don't get close and personal, they apply poisons, jump to the other end of the map and repeat the process. The only way to confront them is to get them out of stealth with flares/flashbangs/grenades or bump into them, in both cases you already have the upper hand and can easily use the sniper rifle.

By the way, caltrops are a great way to find out where gaunts are if you know the path they will take. Them taking damage when walking over them is going to show in the feedback window, so as soon as you see this, you know they are inside or slightly ahead of the caltrops.

It's not really an argument. It's still a sniper, just with more options. And it's not just "another damage source", it's a source of a very good damage in situations where you can't use your other source effectively, so i can't see how it's a "replacement". I get flexibility AND utility, like being able to kill enemies silently, which is not really possible with pistols without specializing in them. If i'm spending character resources on something, i at least make sure that this something is a worthwhile investment.

I see your point, but I still would rather have less damage in exchange for initative and more reliable kneecaps. The former being much more important of course.

Btw, i wouldn't say that sniper is a holy grail of damage, unless it's in a most technical sense. True it can do shitload of damage, but this damage is usually to a 1-2 targets. If you compare by kills/round then it looses to a properly built SMG and AR builds, sometimes even to a sledgehammers.

Well when it comes to killing as many enemies per turn as possible, nothing compares to psi monks. Hell, pure psi can actually reach more single target damage, over 3000+.

I thought i gave several examples why. Burst from SMG - 20 AP (or slightly less), which means you can kill melee guy who got too close and then shoot your rifle. You can't do than with AR without adrenaline shot. They are not even close to be "about the same". ARs also can's make stealth kills. Oh, and AR can't use Kneecap Shot. So no, AR is not really awesome secondary for snipers (though sniper rifle can be awesome secondary for AR).

Yeah, I now see the value of 20 AP burst compared to 27 one. On the other hand, ARs require the least amount of investment.

Damage is not the only thing i care, i though that can be quite clear from my posts. Seriously...

It did sound like this to me, but if you say it doesn't then alright.