Returning to the game after a long break, looking for some build suggestions

[bati]

Hi everyone

It's been a while since I've played this wonderful game and with the patch that came out recently I've been thinking it's now a good time to replay it. The last time I played I used a SMG spec ops character and it worked out great. I'm thinking of going with the same option again, but if there are any other good options that can utilize stealth and still have access to hacking and lockpicking I'm all ears. Fwiw I've also played a crossbow user in the past and thoroughly enjoyed that too. The only thing I don't want to do is micromanage buffs so if the build is so tightly tuned that it requires constant upkeep of food buffs then I'm not interested in it  . For now I'll be playing on Normal difficulty and save Dominating for the next run.

Here's my planned SMG build - http://underrail.info.tm/build/?GQMOBwMJAwfChzIAAEvCh8KHYEEAAFpaWh1aAAAAAAAATyQmJ0hTGTsdFkY-N0k

Couple points I'd like opinion on:

- I thought about pumping throwing all the way to get ~20% crit on grenades but I think 10% base is enough for 1 feat point investment. Throwing accuracy isn't really an issue when you get stealth and can close the range.

- Gun Nut - worth it? The damage range on SMGs is pretty narrow so I don't think this feat is really worth those extra few points of damage. Could optionally replace with Paranoia, Quick Pockets, Sure Step, Power Management, Sprint, Escape Artist, Evasive Maneuvers

- 14 dex - I have no problem downgrading to 7.62 (I think it has the best type of ammo too iirc), the only goal is to maximize the amount of bursts per turn with a rapid reloader enhanced weapon.

- crafting disciplines - I feel like I'd need a little more investment here, been a while so I don't know how high the components go. Points from dodge could go here if needed.

Other than playing with SMGs again I'm also interested in trying out sniper rifles (read that they need a strong backup weapon which doesn't sound very appealing), psi (doubt it fits the criteria of having both stealth and decent lockpick/hack), the newly buffed pistol specs or a stealth knife/melee build - played a fists character in Early Access and loved it but I doubt a character like that could clear DC without major frustrations.

Thanks in advance for answers.

[Fenix]

I heard usually people referred to Gun Nut as "dosn't worth it", that's all I can say.

[mattu]

A few suggestions:

If you want to try DOMINATING, I recommend playing on Hard next, not Normal. DOMINATING is something else and if you haven't even tried Hard yet . . . well, I'd love to be a fly on the wall watching it happen, but I think you may be a little traumatized.

Why not try something different like melee? You can play a stealth/subterfuge melee character. Unarmed/fist is very strong (still). I thought knives were hella fun, not as strong, but fun.

I think your build is fine. Me, I'd do feats quite a bit differently, but SMG is very strong and you can do whatever sounds fun.

I wouldn't worry about crits on grenades at all, myself. I'd rather have Sprint than Three Pointer (or Ballistics, or Clothier, for that matter).

Most people would say Gun Nut isn't worth it, but part of the idea is to move points off INT and into some other stat. If you're going heavy crafting high INT regardless, I think it's fine.

I've been talked into the idea that SMG chars should pump DEX and not PER. I don't know offhand the sweet spots for DEX on SMGs--I'll leave that to someone else.

IMO you could do with quite less Chemistry (Mark IV grenades probably enough) and more of Mech/Elec/Tailoring. But you are probably fine with max 112 in everything. You do not actually need to craft the very best components you find. Q130 is not that much better than Q115. (I get sucked into spending time on this over and over again, so I know the attraction. Do as I say, not as I do.)

Other thoughts:

If you're already taking all that Chemistry (even to Mark IV) and already have Pack Rathound I'd put more points into Traps and blow me up some Lunatics.

49 is a crazy place to stop on Biology--one more point and you can extract Taurine to make Focus Stim, which is awesome.

Have fun!

[bati]

If you want to try DOMINATING, I recommend playing on Hard next, not Normal. DOMINATING is something else and if you haven't even tried Hard yet . . . well, I'd love to be a fly on the wall watching it happen, but I think you may be a little traumatized.

I'm keeping an eye on the Dominating thread here so I'll make sure to go with a spec that has even remote chances at clearing it 

Why not try something different like melee? You can play a stealth/subterfuge melee character. Unarmed/fist is very strong (still). I thought knives were hella fun, not as strong, but fun.

I thought about going with this option but I think it would make DC a little frustrating. Been a while since I've played but I think last boss in particular was very melee unfriendly.

I wouldn't worry about crits on grenades at all, myself. I'd rather have Sprint than Three Pointer (or Ballistics, or Clothier, for that matter).

Good point. With 20% crit under the old rules it meant that at least one enemy in a clustered group would die for sure, with 10% the gamble might be too much. Still, it's a relatively small investment for decent gain and it enhances the aoe aspect of the character which is otherwise somewhat lacking.

Most people would say Gun Nut isn't worth it, but part of the idea is to move points off INT and into some other stat. If you're going heavy crafting high INT regardless, I think it's fine.

I've been talked into the idea that SMG chars should pump DEX and not PER. I don't know offhand the sweet spots for DEX on SMGs--I'll leave that to someone else.

If I need 16 dex I will certainly look into dumping some INT (and maybe another point of PER and take Snooping for the secrets) and cover it with food buffs when it's time to craft.

IMO you could do with quite less Chemistry (Mark IV grenades probably enough) and more of Mech/Elec/Tailoring. But you are probably fine with max 112 in everything. You do not actually need to craft the very best components you find. Q130 is not that much better than Q115. (I get sucked into spending time on this over and over again, so I know the attraction. Do as I say, not as I do.)

49 is a crazy place to stop on Biology--one more point and you can extract Taurine to make Focus Stim, which is awesome.

Yeah, my crafting points are more or less placeholder. I remember pumping biology towards the end of my old run, I think it was for regenerative vest. I am pretty sure that my old character was also able to craft all the stims I needed.

If you're already taking all that Chemistry (even to Mark IV) and already have Pack Rathound I'd put more points into Traps and blow me up some Lunatics.

I'm saving traps for my next crossbow guy because I know I won't be able to stop at one character, just like the last time lol.

Thanks for the feedback!

[Hazard]

Gun Nut is thoroughly meh at best. Having 7 INT just for that one feat is a waste of an ability point, but if you're going to put 7 points in INT for some other reason and you have absolutely no other feat that you'd rather take instead of Gun Nut, then sure, go ahead.

Clothier is also, in my opinion, pretty bad. It only affects Aluminized, Black, Blast and Kevlar Cloths, and none of these are exactly critical components, except maybe Black Cloth if you want the absolute best Stealth bonus.

Crafting skills are kind of a problem for all builds that invest heavily into Evasion and Dodge, if you also want to have some Subterfuge skills. The best component quality you can get before Deep Caverns, Super Steel excluded, is I believe around 135, give or take 5 points, but components of this quality seem to be quite rare and often the highest you'll find in any shop hovers just below 130. The vast majority, or perhaps all, crafting skill requirements are quality * 0.8 or less, which would mean effective skill of 104 to be able to use quality 130 components, but any optional components in a blueprint increase the skill requirement so usually a somewhat higher effective skill is needed. Quality 160 Super Steel plates and whatever quality Infused Leathers are possible to get after their recent nerf obviously require higher skills as well.

Noteworthy is also the fact that these days many merchants can give you access to special stock if your Mercantile skill is high enough, but I personally don't know how useful that really is for crafting. They certainly have more stuff for sale and more money as well, but whether or not the things they sell are actually of better quality seems to be a bit unclear.


If you want something different, I've saved two of Wildan's Sniper + Assault Rifle builds:

First one is an offensive variant: http://underrail.info.tm/build/?GQcDCgQQAwPChwAAAMKHwofCh1REAADCh3YAAMKHAAAAAAAAASQ5OzUPFUpJQUcCM0s

And a more defensive one: http://underrail.info.tm/build/?GQcDBgoOAwPChwAAAMKHwofCh1REAADCh3YAAMKHAAAAAAAAASQ5OzUPFUpJAjNLYwg

They're not quite up-to-date, though: crafting with INT 3 is currently kinda crappy, since Junkyard Surprise can't give +2 INT anymore. This will apparently be changed back when the Expedition DLC is released and brings with it the +2 INT Hypercerebrix drug... unless that thing has steep crafting requirements by itself, which would suck a lot. These builds also have way too much Dodge in my opinion, and I'm not sure why both of them have 7 STR instead of 6, considering that the only AR that requires 7 STR is the Huszar.


Edit: I'd also recommend Hard instead of Normal, mostly due to it being a much more interesting difficulty setting overall. Normal is great for the first playthrough, but for reruns it's too easy, in my opinion.

[bati]

Those hacking/lockpick values seem pretty low, is there something I'm missing or is it a conscious decision to ignore some of the higher tier locks?

edit: Here's my revised version of the SMG build - http://underrail.info.tm/build/?GQMQBwMJAwXChzIAAADCh8KHZzcAAGRkZB5kAAAAAAAATyQmJxk7HRY-N0k2YS8

I believe I used Clothier on my old character for max stealth bonus on the vest, but I guess I could do without that. I could probably dump another point of INT in favor of PER but I don't know, with 4 crafting skills it almost feels like a waste to not raise this stat at least a little bit.

Is 3 CON a viable option for Hard ?

[lewis_cb]

If you are looking for new ideas for an SMG build, you could try a combination of cheap chem pistol shots (for CC and damage amplification with catalyzing belt) with amplified acid/incendiary bullets and grenades/knifes/traps:
http://underrail.info.tm/build/?GQMQCgMIAwPCh8KCAADCgsKHAAAqACd_dX0AZAAAAAAAADsmGTBZN8KRQUdJD1EWPg

The big downside is 8 Perception, I don't know if with the CC from the chem pistol it could be worked around.
Expertise might be better than Opportunist.

[Hazard]

Those hacking/lockpick values seem pretty low, is there something I'm missing or is it a conscious decision to ignore some of the higher tier locks?

Always remember to take into account Jackknife and Lockpicks/Haxxors/Huxkey when determining the amount of points you're going to put into Lockpicking and Hacking. In the builds I posted, there's a lot of room to take points from Dodge to boost Subterfuge skills. That said, currently the highest Lockpicking checks go only up to like 125. In the case of Hacking the checks go somewhat higher, and there's at least one really difficult check in Deep Caverns. But with all the boosts you can get from food (bonus Dexterity) and the aforementioned equipment, you don't need to max the base value of these two skills if you have at least a point or two in Intelligence.

Is 3 CON a viable option for Hard ?

It is, though it can get difficult at times. Depends a lot on how good you are in using Stealth, initiating combat from good positions and taking out snipers and other big hitters ASAP.

[TheAverageGortsby]

Is 3 CON a viable option for Hard ?

3 CON is even ok for Dominating.  You just have to make sure that at all times you have CC and many tricks up your sleeve.  You may still die and need to reload very rarely, but if you're quite careful 3 CON is fine.  After all, if you take an Ambush sniper crit, you're going to have to sit down no matter if your CON is 3 or 6 =)

[bati]

Thanks for all the information so far. I've also tried a crossbow build just now to see how it handles the new Hard difficulty and it's a lot easier than smg in the beginning, so I'll probably stick with it (plus I love this build anyway). Couple questions however (mostly because I'd love to free up some feat slots lol):

http://underrail.info.tm/build/?GQMHCgMNAwcAAMKHAADCh8KHWlUAMlpaPDxaAAAAAAAAMEBMASLCgDU4M0tqJCcd - my planned build (note that crafting numbers are subject to tweaking)

Is Trap Expert worth it? I have Quick Tinkering anyway, so Trap Expert would be more of a QoL thing I guess. Also useful for setting massive trap zones fast(er) in some areas.

Extra stat points - is getting Agi above 7 worth it? I realize that it indirectly boosts crit damage through Snipe

Special Tactics - worth it? Useful for burst I suppose, but very situational.

Snipe - haven't used this on my old crossbow build, and with the build so focused around crits I'm wondering if it's worth picking up. At this point I'm also wondering if it's better to use Smart Goggles (if taking both Aimed Shot and Snipe) or Seeker if only going with Aimed Shot

Goggles - see above

Crossbow - which type and modules are generally best right now? I've done a cursory search  through the wiki and it seems like Zephyr with Anatomically Aware Scope and Super String would be the best option. Or AAS + Pneumatic Reloader if using Adrenaline syringes.

[Fenix]

Crossbow is so feat-starved, I would say you don't need Trap Expert, also fast? traps doesn't have cd anymore.
I personally even would have thrown QT, because it's so OP, and tried to play without it, and definitely Deadly Snares too, becaue you only take it in the end game, so that mean you somehow got there without it.
Special Tactics is +1 bolt, don't know what so situational in this.
Agility 10 mean Blitz, which in turn mean +1 bolt.
I would definitely get rid from Trap Expert, Deadly Snares, and Nimble for sure, and if I was me playing even from Quick Tinkering (not reccomended for you also for anyone if we talk about Domination, fine for Hard), aslo Pack Rathound too, but that's questionable, at least postpone it to end game, Interloper 24 lvl? too late really.

[MirddinEmris]

Is Trap Expert worth it? I have Quick Tinkering anyway, so Trap Expert would be more of a QoL thing I guess. Also useful for setting massive trap zones fast(er) in some areas.

Extra stat points - is getting Agi above 7 worth it? I realize that it indirectly boosts crit damage through Snipe

Special Tactics - worth it? Useful for burst I suppose, but very situational.

Snipe - haven't used this on my old crossbow build, and with the build so focused around crits I'm wondering if it's worth picking up. At this point I'm also wondering if it's better to use Smart Goggles (if taking both Aimed Shot and Snipe) or Seeker if only going with Aimed Shot

Goggles - see above

Crossbow - which type and modules are generally best right now? I've done a cursory search  through the wiki and it seems like Zephyr with Anatomically Aware Scope and Super String would be the best option. Or AAS + Pneumatic Reloader if using Adrenaline syringes.

I played without Trap Expert and i never though i really need it. If you use traps mainly in combat with QT, enemies will not have enough time to detect them anyway. I'd say that for a build that is pretty feat starved, it's a waste of feat slot.

Your overall build is pretty solid, though i would change Interloper for Paranoia. With new creatures additional detection is always welcome and +5 init will help you with arena and some other fights.

My build uses 7 Agi and 7 Dex. Exchanging 3 Per for 3 Agi is more of a matter of taste. Though if you won't use Blitz (and as a crossbow user, you probably won't) i'd say you aren't getting anything special.

Main tactics for crossbow user is alpha strike with special attacks and electric bolts, so while it seems that Special Tactics is situational feat, you'll use it very often for the duration of the game.

Just because you focus around crits doesn't mean you can't use Snipe for great damage. You spend one feat and in return you have almost 100% guarantee that one of the enemies is dead after you first round. All it takes is heavy investment in stealth, which is a good investment by itself.

As for goggles...well both ways are pretty effective. With both i finished hard difficulty without any issues. Though if you want to go crit chance route, you'll probably need Recklessness feat too.

Your main weapon would probably be Cyclon with Pneumatic Reloader, since it is possible to get 4 attacks from the uase of adrenaline. Second component  will either be Super String, crit damage scope or scrit chance scope (if you go for crit chanse route). IIRC crit chance scope gives you most DPR, but SS version is more reliable with damage output. I made some calculations in the past, but i don't remember specific numbers. Second weapon can be either Zephyr with super string and crit damage scope (crit damage on this with Critical Power, Sharpshooter and Bowmen is very high, though it may be overkill) or Monsoon with super string and crit chance scope.

Overall i say that with critical chance route you have better damage output outside of alpha strike phase. Had much easier time with Tchort.

Main tactics for crossbow user is like this - find enemy -> find good position -> manually start combat -> activate Special Tactics -> activate NVG -> use Snipe -> use Aimed Shot -> Use special bolt (possibly electrical for stun) -> if there are enemies alive and not stunned, use adrenaline shot -> use another 2 bolts to stun or kill them -> finish stragglers. It pretty effective even if after certain point a bit boring. Crossbow is pretty good when you can use it like that, but not exactly stellar when you can't.

Pro tip: Stack up on electro bolts. They are most useful of the bunch. You don't even need to craft them, just buy them from merchants in every merchant run. Honestly, i probably use them more often than regular bolts, so you can never have too much of them/

[bati]

@Fenix

Good point about Blitz, didn't even think about it. As for the perk order - I took them as I went down the list, that's not supposed to be the order I'll pick them in game, lol. I've already picked up Interloper (level 5 right now), Quick Tinkering, Aimed Shot and Marksman so far.

Other than Blitz and maybe Kneepcap Shot/Concussive Shots, what would be your picks instead of Trap Expert, Deadly Snares and Nimble? I'm playing on Hard fwiw.

[MirddinEmris]

On the crit chance route for crossbow.

Monsoon gives 13%, High Resolution Digital Scope - 10%, Recklessness - 7%, Goggles can give up to 19% (let's say 15%), Infused rathound leather armor give you around 10% on high end. So, it's 55% crit chance or 50% if it's a Cyclon instead of Monsoon. If you gulp focus stim, it's another 15%. Crit damage with this would be +262% for Cyclon and +225% for Monsoon. So, at your peak you'll have more than half of your shots hit for more than 3 times you damage. Pretty good i'd say.

This version of crossbow build have easier time dealing with enemies who are resistant to mechanical damage, since crits from special bolts with Elemental Bolts feat are pretty powerful.

Also, special bolt don't seem to benefit from Smart goggles (despite what you can find people on forums say). Tested it on serrated bolts, no difference with or without them.

[Fenix]

http://underrail.info.tm/build/?GQMFCgMPAwcAAMKHAFDCh8KHTE8AAG5uAG5uAAAAAAAAASImKMKAODNHS2o1HV0n

That's how I would play it today with Bowyer, looks like you have no feat slot for Interloper today.
You can change last 3 feats how you wish, probably Interloper don't make much sense that late, Skinner is weaker today, Pack Rathound is quality of life/essential for life 50/50, so you an take instead Recklessness, Power Management, and Pack Rathound, or Skinner instead of Pack Rathound.