Returning to the game after a long break, looking for some build suggestions

[MirddinEmris]

http://underrail.info.tm/build/?AwGloJgVhBmEDsi4gIwDYVPG2Mep64wKjqgAcZMVIAnKFCTKsDu2J6iBJrACxw+dEP1D8KokVG5R4UTAhKZWK4JNYjUECkA

This is the build i finished the game on hard oddity before last update. Except at the end i took skinner instead of deadly snares. Due to some of the changes it'll probably need some tweaking, mostly in the crafting skills area, but overall still pretty viable. Hope you find some the shit i posted useful.

[bati]

Hope you find some the shit i posted useful.

Very useful, especially the stuff about crit chance. Thanks.

[bati]

Due to some of the changes it'll probably need some tweaking, mostly in the crafting skills area

Out of curiosity, what changes would be needed, and why? Because there's no more +2 INT food available or did any of the high tier components have their requirements changed? I'm still low level enough to adjust the build so I'd love to hear your suggestions.

[Hazard]

With 7 INT and the workbench crafting bonuses from the player's house, that build should have enough Mechanics, Tailoring and Electronics at least to craft from most pre-DC components, though probably not before the last few levels, unless you prioritize them over other skills.

[bati]

What's the general opinion on raising base stats to raise the effective skill levels, even if the stat is otherwise wasted? I've adjusted my planned crossbow build to this -

http://underrail.info.tm/build/?GQMHCAMMAwoAAMKHAHjCh8KHS1cAMktKRjJKAAAAAAAAJzEBIh0wwoA1ODNLaiRB

I was initially going for 10 agi (hence why it's at 8 now) but since I've abandoned my plan to get Blitz I thought it wouldn't be a bad idea to raise INT since I have 6 skill disciplines that benefit heavily from it. I checked the numbers on the calc for weapon damage increase from perception and going from 12 to 15 raises the damage bonus from 258% to 283%. Assuming these numbers are correct I have to say that the damage increase does not seem worth the 3 point investment. Slowly raising INT towards the end of the leveling curve also has the added benefit of allowing me to focus on other stats before crafting and then catch up on those fast as well.

One thing I don't know however is how much crafting skill is generally required these days for high tier gear.

Thoughts? Am I crazy for bumping a stat if it's not required to meet perk requirements?

[MirddinEmris]

What's the general opinion on raising base stats to raise the effective skill levels, even if the stat is otherwise wasted? I've adjusted my planned crossbow build to this -

http://underrail.info.tm/build/?GQMHCAMMAwoAAMKHAHjCh8KHS1cAMktKRjJKAAAAAAAAJzEBIh0wwoA1ODNLaiRB

I was initially going for 10 agi (hence why it's at 8 now) but since I've abandoned my plan to get Blitz I thought it wouldn't be a bad idea to raise INT since I have 6 skill disciplines that benefit heavily from it. I checked the numbers on the calc for weapon damage increase from perception and going from 12 to 15 raises the damage bonus from 258% to 283%. Assuming these numbers are correct I have to say that the damage increase does not seem worth the 3 point investment. Slowly raising INT towards the end of the leveling curve also has the added benefit of allowing me to focus on other stats before crafting and then catch up on those fast as well.

One thing I don't know however is how much crafting skill is generally required these days for high tier gear.

Thoughts? Am I crazy for bumping a stat if it's not required to meet perk requirements?

You don't need crafting skill very high, you just need to hit certain threshold, for example 75 with chemistry to craft corrosive acid bolts in DC (you certainly don't need 110 effective chem). So you won't get anything important except maybe slightly better energy shield with raising Int, especially after infused leather nerf in last update.

Increase in Per is not only damage, it is also accuracy, and it's pretty important. It also increases detection, which will help you against new crawlers.

[bati]

What would be the recommended thresholds for crafting then?

[hilf]

128 Tailoring.
I'd be a shame to roll perfect quality super steel and be 1 point short to use it.

[Hazard]

Hilf posted some results from an accuracy test he did on the energy/chem pistol thread (http://underrail.com/forums/index.php?topic=2008.15):

6 perception, 125(146) guns = 78% chance to hit
11 perception, 125(199) guns = 79% chance to hit
My target was Plasma Sentry. I did another test, same setup but with flare and result was again 1% point.

As I said in that thread, these results seem a bit strange, considering the effective skill difference is quite significant at 53 points. And because of that, I did a quick test of my own:

12 PER, 125 (210) Guns skill, Scoped Compensated 7.62 Hornet, character Focused, target is Praetorian Sniper right next to a light source, 13 tile/max sight distance = 66% chance to hit with normal attack, 33% with burst
Rapid Compensated 7.62 Jaguar, same conditions except distance is 9 tiles and less = 89% chance to hit at all distances with normal attack, burst precision increases as the distance decreases

15 PER, 125 (241) Guns skill, with the Hornet = 78% chance to hit with normal attack, 39% with burst
Jaguar = 90% chance to hit at all distances with normal attack, burst precision increases as the distance decreases

Assault Rifles (and very likely Crossbows as well, considering they have the same max range and only one tile less optimal range) seem to benefit considerably at maximum distance, but as soon as you move 2 or 3 tiles closer, chance to hit jumps to 95%, with both Perception values. Burst CTH is higher with 15 PER at all distances, although it caps at 92% with both 12 and 15 PER, the latter reaching it a tile or so sooner. Same thing with the Jaguar, although precision cap is lower than the Hornet's 92%. The Jaguar's normal attack is the weird one: it kinda seems to imply that the less range a weapon has, the less it benefits from extreme skill values.

I guess the builds that really want to max Perception for the accuracy gain are mainly burst-focused Riflemen, and crossbow users to a considerably lesser degree due to lacking burst fire. I'm fairly sure Sniper Rifles benefit even less, since they're always in optimal range.

[Fenix]

Increase in Per is not only damage, it is also accuracy, and it's pretty important. It also increases detection, which will help you against new crawlers.

This. I think new crawlers might be muchless pain in the ass if you able to see them first.

[bati]

Hilf posted some results from an accuracy test he did on the energy/chem pistol thread (http://underrail.com/forums/index.php?topic=2008.15):

6 perception, 125(146) guns = 78% chance to hit
11 perception, 125(199) guns = 79% chance to hit
My target was Plasma Sentry. I did another test, same setup but with flare and result was again 1% point.

As I said in that thread, these results seem a bit strange, considering the effective skill difference is quite significant at 53 points. And because of that, I did a quick test of my own:

12 PER, 125 (210) Guns skill, Scoped Compensated 7.62 Hornet, character Focused, target is Praetorian Sniper right next to a light source, 13 tile/max sight distance = 66% chance to hit with normal attack, 33% with burst
Rapid Compensated 7.62 Jaguar, same conditions except distance is 9 tiles and less = 89% chance to hit at all distances with normal attack, burst precision increases as the distance decreases

15 PER, 125 (241) Guns skill, with the Hornet = 78% chance to hit with normal attack, 39% with burst
Jaguar = 90% chance to hit at all distances with normal attack, burst precision increases as the distance decreases

Assault Rifles (and very likely Crossbows as well, considering they have the same max range and only one tile less optimal range) seem to benefit considerably at maximum distance, but as soon as you move 2 or 3 tiles closer, chance to hit jumps to 95%, with both Perception values. Burst CTH is higher with 15 PER at all distances, although it caps at 92% with both 12 and 15 PER, the latter reaching it a tile or so sooner. Same thing with the Jaguar, although precision cap is lower than the Hornet's 92%. The Jaguar's normal attack is the weird one: it kinda seems to imply that the less range a weapon has, the less it benefits from extreme skill values.

I guess the builds that really want to max Perception for the accuracy gain are mainly burst-focused Riflemen, and crossbow users to a considerably lesser degree due to lacking burst fire. I'm fairly sure Sniper Rifles benefit even less, since they're always in optimal range.

Thanks, good info. So considering that most engagements involve multiple enemies who try to close the distance fast and that most fights start in sections where you don't even have a line of sight that spans the entire max weapon range, it would seem that pumping PER just for that wouldn't be worth it. Extra detection would be nice for sure but I could just take Paranoia for that (and to offset Recklessness penalty). How does PER affect accuracy penalty from moving and close range? For example, if you'd be over accuracy cap thanks to stats would the new value be max cap - 10% or would the extra stats make up for it and increase it back to cap?

[MirddinEmris]

So considering that most engagements involve multiple enemies who try to close the distance fast and that most fights start in sections where you don't even have a line of sight that spans the entire max weapon range, it would seem that pumping PER just for that wouldn't be worth it.

For crossbowmen most fights involve you trying to kill as many enemies as possible in the first turn from as far away as possible, so that remaining wouldn't be able to run to you and kill you in one turn. Accuracy of your shots from initial round determines how hard the rest of the fight  will be if even be at all. Also, if you wanna try dominating difficulty extra damage is always wanted.

Extra detection would be nice for sure but I could just take Paranoia for that (and to offset Recklessness penalty).

Why not both?) You'll notice them even before most stealthy enemies will suspect you are near them.

[hilf]

Heh, i've choosen really unfortunate target for my PER tests. Looks like i have a talent for this because similar thing has happened when i was testing DOTs in Pillars of Eternity.

I did more tests but on humans. 125 base weapon skill, laser and chemical pistols. I was comparing PER 6 with PER 9. Difference in CTH was bigger and ranged from 2% points to 5% points (on max range).
2% difference was for Praetorian Enforcer in metal armor - 78% vs 80%. Illumination didn't change this difference.
5% was for Preatorian Sniper in tact vest - 86% vs 91%.

[TheAverageGortsby]

This. I think new crawlers might be muchless pain in the ass if you able to see them first.

Gotta tell ya, I *never* see them first, and they're not really a problem.  I have one stun break for accidents, but other than that, the environmental clues let you know that there's trouble around.  Just start lobbing incendiaries all over the place; the sound of the explosions or the light of the fire will attract the Death Stalkers, and they'll try to find a path that doesn't run them through fire.  Leave them one, and either Quick Tinker up some traps to force them to drop into visibility, or start lobbing explosives and when you tag one, switch to incendiaries.

Once you have a Death Stalker or two panicking while on fire, standing in a lake of flame, with your back to a wall and your face all ruddy with kill mania and popping shadows, you'll not wish you had more Perception.  Just more pyro.  =)

[Fenix]

Extra detection would be nice for sure but I could just take Paranoia for that (and to offset Recklessness penalty).

It doesn't work like this. With 10 Per and Paranoia I can barely see their siluets before they attack me.
With 15 Per it might be another thing.

Of course, you may wish to pump Con instead, that's would be even better perhaps, but I always liked glass cannon archtypes.