Stealth Build w/o crafting viable?

[Bruno]

Okay, you are on to something, but I would consider the following points if I were you:

-Interloper
Lvl2+ feat, requires 7 agility, 20 stealth. Reduces your stealth movement penalty from 45% to 30% I think, and let you retain 15 movement points when you enter combat from stealth, instead of zero.
This is not mandatory for you, as you have an insanely high initiative and should preferably initiate combat without stealth (so you have all your MPs) when you can. However: if you find that you get really tired of the low walking speed in stealth, it is a great quality of life feat. You can save at a levelup, and try it out for a bit to see if you like it.

-Sharpshooter
You want it, as stated above. With critical power, you will get great aimed shots and ambushes. You can take it rather late.

-Execute
I would skip it. If you can immobilize someone at close range, they are pretty much toast anyway. Use rapid fire instead to deal great damage at close range, and save a feat.

-Grenadier
Awesome for you, good that you have it - as you play you will realize that you need those grenades, a lot. 2 turn cooldown instrad of 4 turns is huge, get it at the first opportunity, lvl 4.


Ability points:
Looking good, but perhaps move a point each from INT and AGI over to PER, to increase perception to 11-12. Accuracy is pretty vital for you, as well as increased damage. You will find out if you are comfortable with 10, but is is a bit on the low side for my taste. Also, perception helps with detection, synergy with Paranoia. And you got no traps skill and 3 CON... you want to spot those traps, even with good evasion they will tear you to shreds if you step on the wrong landmine.

But in general you are looking good. The benefit of pistols is your great initiative, so make sure you use your first turn to your best advantage (= chuck your favourite grenade at your enemies and finish the most dangerous enemy first, then retreat into cover)

Ok, but what would you skip if I am to take Interloper for example. You only crossed out Execute, but suggested two new feats to put in.

What is your opinion on the viability of stealth without all the stealth feats? The larger caliber pistols can't be silenced anyways, so I am thinking...

Well, my personal opinion only, but I would drop Sprint. I know some guys swear by it for all circumstances, but I feel the same about Interloper.
Interloper gives you faster stealth, and a few MPs (15) when attacking from stealth. Sprint you can activate on your turn, and get 30 MPs for 2 turns.
I love moving around in stealth all the time, so Interloper is great quality of life.

Because your initiative is so good, as said before, you will almost always move first, and should try to start combat without stealth. You will then have all MPs avilable from your great agility and tabi boots, and that should be enough to get into cover. You are not melee who has to move to the enemy, or SMG who need to get into point blank range to hit something, you can shoot from a distance and go to nearby cover, so Sprint is kind of redundant as far as I see it.

Stealth is amazing because it enables you to enter an unknown hot zone undetected, and scout out the enemies, before entering the combat on your own terms. If one or more enemy has a patrol pattern taking them away from the rest, if there are roaming enemies like dogs etc, you can sneak up to them out of sight from the rest, enter combat and finish them off with your silenced weapon. (This is where your high burst damage special attacks shine.) It is great to be able to assassinate a lone enemy in one room without alerting all the rest, it makes a real difference to fight fewer enemies at once. Also, you can steal everything that is not nailed down, in plain sight of people.

It also feels cool to assassinate someone with a silenced weapon.

[MirddinEmris]

I see. From what I've read from the Wiki Hammerer can't be silenced because it's not 5mm caliber.
Won't this render my whole stealth approach useless?

Would you therefore recommend to move some points from stealth over to chemistry for grenade crafting or electronics for the EMP stuff?

You will need both guns that i mentioned. Every time you attack someone you break your stealth anyway, silenced or not. Silenced mean that if you have more enemies on the map that are not in line of sight to you, they won't hear you shooting someone. There is a noise mechanics in this game, so that's why sometimes you need silenced pistols so you don't have to fight whole map of enemies. Most of the time though you just gonna shoot stuff with your .44

You don't really need it, i'd say you gonna be ok with what you have. You will find grenades on enemies and stores anyway, it's just you won't find most powerful of them that way, but grenades are plenty powerful already, so it's not THAT important.

Also, stealth is powerful, invest into it. As you noticed, i never said that you should drop stealth and almost no one in his right mind will say that to you about this game) And stealth doesn't really need those feats. The only time i took Interloper was when playing sniper and while it was relatively nice, it wasn't something i really needed or missed in other builds.

Ok, but what would you skip if I am to take Interloper for example. You only crossed out Execute, but suggested two new feats to put in.

Welcome to building a pistol character.

Well, my personal opinion only, but I would drop Sprint. I know some guys swear by it for all circumstances, but I feel the same about Interloper.
Interloper gives you faster stealth, and a few MPs (15) when attacking from stealth. Sprint you can activate on your turn, and get 30 MPs for 2 turns.
I love moving around in stealth all the time, so Interloper is great quality of life.

Quality of life feats are not for pistol builds.

I think you could make a case for a Hammerer.  5mm does so little damage per shot that you're at the mercy of resist/threshold even with W2C, but a Hammerer, especially a crafted one, is going to pump out enough damage that a special attack will blow through even very high resistances in a way that even burst fire from a SMG won't.

Nope, you can't. Sorry, i don't want to be too antagonistic, it's just that i made at least three successful Hard runs with different pistol character (special attack route, critical route, critical route without crafting or OH GOD WHY DID I DO THAT route, as i love to call it) and i'm fully aware about strength and weaknesses of that particular weapon.

 Also, resistances don't care about how strong your attacks is) Thresholds do. If we are talking about resistances, than weapon with higher DPR still gonna be with higher DPR no matter what.

[Bruno]

Quality of life feats are not for pistol builds.

Heh that is hard core, I love my quality of life. No way I'm ninjaing my way through the majority of Underrail without Interloper. Same thing goes for Pack Rathound btw, 3 STR needs it, trap user or not. And Trap Expert if you are into traps at all, 10 seconds cooldown on disarming your minefields is not cool.

I happily sacrifice stuff like Kneecap Shot, Sprint, Point Shot if I have to, for those.

But since you have used pistols quite a bit, did you go for a sniper rifle as backup weapon? Reading this thread has made me polish a pistol/sniper/traps/stealth assassin type of character, that I will take on a Hard Oddities run. Like to get some input.

[MirddinEmris]

Heh that is hard core, I love my quality of life. No way I'm ninjaing my way through the majority of Underrail without Interloper. Same thing goes for Pack Rathound btw, 3 STR needs it, trap user or not. And Trap Expert if you are into traps at all, 10 seconds cooldown on disarming your minefields is not cool.

It's not "hard core" it's called optimization. Interloper's effect on your speed while noticeable, is not that substantial, speedhack is way better anyway. Careful inventory management and infused pig leather boots help you with inventory capacity problem and trap expert was never even a consideration for me even on trap heavy characters. In combat you gonna use quick tinkering, or you prepare beforehand in such a way that they can't avoid stepping into trap if they want ot get close to you. Also, new version dropped cooldowns on traps anyway, so there are even less reasons to use this feat.

I happily sacrifice stuff like Kneecap Shot, Sprint, Point Shot if I have to, for those.

Then you are sacrificing your core efficiency for dubious gains. Some weapons can afford that and some not. Pistols are of the later.

But since you have used pistols quite a bit, did you go for a sniper rifle as backup weapon?

If you are using sniper rifles, it's more likely then will become your main weapon, even you wanted to use pistols. Pistols only.

That actually explains easiness in your sacrifice of important feats (except Sprint, which is optional). After all, with the use of SR, you might as well not take any pistol feats at all, except Gunslinger for initiative boost.

[Bruno]

Heh that is hard core, I love my quality of life. No way I'm ninjaing my way through the majority of Underrail without Interloper. Same thing goes for Pack Rathound btw, 3 STR needs it, trap user or not. And Trap Expert if you are into traps at all, 10 seconds cooldown on disarming your minefields is not cool.

It's not "hard core" it's called optimization. Interloper's effect on your speed while noticeable, is not that substantial, speedhack is way better anyway. Careful inventory management and infused pig leather boots help you with inventory capacity problem and trap expert was never even a consideration for me even on trap heavy characters. In combat you gonna use quick tinkering, or you prepare beforehand in such a way that they can't avoid stepping into trap if they want ot get close to you. Also, new version dropped cooldowns on traps anyway, so there are even less reasons to use this feat.

I happily sacrifice stuff like Kneecap Shot, Sprint, Point Shot if I have to, for those.

Then you are sacrificing your core efficiency for dubious gains. Some weapons can afford that and some not. Pistols are of the later.

But since you have used pistols quite a bit, did you go for a sniper rifle as backup weapon?

If you are using sniper rifles, it's more likely then will become your main weapon, even you wanted to use pistols. Pistols only.

That actually explains easiness in your sacrifice of important feats (except Sprint, which is optional). After all, with the use of SR, you might as well not take any pistol feats at all, except Gunslinger for initiative boost.

Sure, I dont use speedhack. If I did, there would be little use for Interloper or Pack Rathound or Trap Expert of course, the external program will provide the quality of life we want. With the normal game speed, those feats are valuable.

About the sniper, yes, that can double as primary weapon. The pistol is still good, as silenced assassin weapon, at point blank range, moving and firing in/out of cover, and for great initiative.

[MirddinEmris]

Sure, I dont use speedhack. If I did, there would be little use for Interloper or Pack Rathound or Trap Expert of course, the external program will provide the quality of life we want. With the normal game speed, those feats are valuable.

About the sniper, yes, that can double as primary weapon. The pistol is still good, as silenced assassin weapon, at point blank range, moving and firing in/out of cover, and for great initiative.

Correct me if i'm wrong but i can't find where i wrote about dismissing pack rathound because of speedhack. I said - careful inventory management and gear that provides almost same benefit as the feat. Interloper speed boost is not that great that i would sacrifice my combat efficiency even without speedhack. Not on pistols.

So, basically, you have sniper with pistol as a side arm. SMG would be better in this case anyway. Better damage and can deal with more than one enemy in one turn.

[Bruno]

Sure, I dont use speedhack. If I did, there would be little use for Interloper or Pack Rathound or Trap Expert of course, the external program will provide the quality of life we want. With the normal game speed, those feats are valuable.

About the sniper, yes, that can double as primary weapon. The pistol is still good, as silenced assassin weapon, at point blank range, moving and firing in/out of cover, and for great initiative.

Correct me if i'm wrong but i can't find where i wrote about dismissing pack rathound because of speedhack. I said - careful inventory management and gear that provides almost same benefit as the feat. Interloper speed boost is not that great that i would sacrifice my combat efficiency even without speedhack. Not on pistols.

So, basically, you have sniper with pistol as a side arm. SMG would be better in this case anyway. Better damage and can deal with more than one enemy in one turn.

Never said you dismissed Pack Rathound because of anything. If you have speedhack, you can zip around back and forth more easily, so less need for inventory management and Pack Rathound, that is why I mentioned it.

I would also prefer SMG as sidearm, of course. It is a lot better than pistol at raw damage, *especially* silenced. But the burst fire feats have little synergy with the sniper, and feats are tight already. The initiative from gunslinger is also very valuable. A glass cannon is pretty screwed if he is caught out of stealth and lose initiative.

[TheAverageGortsby]

Nope, you can't. Sorry, i don't want to be too antagonistic, it's just that i made at least three successful Hard runs with different pistol character

Well, similarly I don't want to be too antagonistic, but Hard runs are no measure of success.  Beating Hard once you know the game is probably doable with anything short of intentionally weakened trick builds.  Getting as far as the Mushroom Forest, at the very least, certainly is.  And you do use cheats so your experience with the game is different than the real game.

Now, your Dominating win, that's what makes me take your opinion seriously regarding firearms.

[MirddinEmris]

Well, similarly I don't want to be too antagonistic, but Hard runs are no measure of success.  Beating Hard once you know the game is probably doable with anything short of intentionally weakened trick builds.

I never tried to put it as a measure of success, just a measure of me knowing pistol builds very well by the virtue of playing them extensively in different ways. And you, by your own admission, didn't. And they can't compare to SMGs, no matter what caliber.

Also, speedhack is not really cheat, since it doesn't make game easier, just quicker. Sometimes it can actually make it harder, since you have less time to react to things.

Now, your Dominating win, that's what makes me take your opinion seriously regarding firearms.

Which is kinda weird since i won Dominating with a sledgehammer build, not a firearm build.

[MirddinEmris]

If you have speedhack, you can zip around back and forth more easily, so less need for inventory management and Pack Rathound, that is why I mentioned it.

You can, but i usually don't do that. I never return for another portion of loot and almost never travel encumbered (the only exception is when i transfer components from SGS locker to house in Core City). I always consider carefully what i take with me, and money showers you in any case, so i never felt the need to walk for additional portion of loot.

I would also prefer SMG as sidearm, of course. It is a lot better than pistol at raw damage, *especially* silenced. But the burst fire feats have little synergy with the sniper, and feats are tight already. The initiative from gunslinger is also very valuable. A glass cannon is pretty screwed if he is caught out of stealth and lose initiative.

What pistol feats have synergy with sniper rifle then? Kneecap Shot, Steadfast Aim, Point Shot, Rapid Fire, Execute - neither of them works with Sniper. The only one i can name is Aimed Shot, but it doesn't really matter, since virtually all sniper builds take it anyway. You might as well just take Gunslinger, keep the pistol that you get from the start of the game and arm it in fights like Arena fights, Black Crawler base fights and so on to get that +7 initiative bonus and rest of the time you put SMG in second weapon slot. Sniper is the only build that can afford to take feats for both sidearms, since he needs just 4 of them for the primary weapon function, so no, feats are not tight on snipers. Also, i'm not sure if sniper could be called glass cannon, unless you purposefully make him so, since you actually have some spare points to put in Con and paired with evasion/dodge he is not that glassy.

[Tygrende]

What pistol feats have synergy with sniper rifle then?

Sharpshooter, that's it. The bonus 30% critical damage when focused applies to sniper rifles and pistols, but not SMGs. Can be useful, especially if you combine Ambush with a silenced pistol.

That said pistols still require more feats than SMGs to be an effective sniper sidearm. SMGs only really need Spec Ops and Kneecap Shot while pistols need Gunslinger, Kneecap Shot, Rapid Fire and could use taking Point Shot. You could drop Rapid Fire, but I don't reccomend it, it's a great feat for pistols that brings their damage output to an adequate level. I can never afford to take Opportunist and Execute on sniper builds.

[MirddinEmris]

Sharpshooter, that's it.

Oh, right. Somehow completely forgot about it.

SMGs only really need Spec Ops and Kneecap Shot while pistols need Gunslinger, Kneecap Shot, Rapid Fire and could use taking Point Shot.

I'd say Commando would be very nice for SMG as sidearm. And if i invest into pistol feats i always take both Rapid Fire and Point Shot, since being able to make full 4 shots at the price of 2 is very nice.

I can never afford to take Opportunist and Execute on sniper builds.

Honestly, for a sniper build their usefulness is kinda nonexistent. I'll think of taking QoL feats like Interloper or Burglar before i do about taking those feats.

[Davaeorn]

Ok, I did some further research and came to the conclusion that I am going to play SMG.

This way I feel I have way more feats open for adjustment to my liking since -- from what I gathered -- I only really need SpecOps, Commando and high dex (which I have anyway).

The cost-benefit relation for pistols seems just terrible. 

Maybe they buff it with the expansion, who knows.

[Bruno]

Remember Expertise as well. Extra damage per non-critical bullet is a major part of the SMG appeal, especially the silenced (low base damage) variant.

You already have Sprint, wich is good as you need to be rather close, sometimes point blank, to hit well. Lastly, consider Opportunist+Suppressive Fire, as the latter provide a slow-effect, the combonation making your bursts do permanent 15% more damage.

SMGs are really strong, though if you are doing only light crafting, perhaps get mechanics to 50 or so, and chemistry to 20, to make repair kits (weapons degrade rather fast with) and more importantly armor-piercing bullets, to overcome your main problem with mechanical threshold/resistance.

[MirddinEmris]

Ok, I did some further research and came to the conclusion that I am going to play SMG.

This way I feel I have way more feats open for adjustment to my liking since -- from what I gathered -- I only really need SpecOps, Commando and high dex (which I have anyway).

The cost-benefit relation for pistols seems just terrible. 

Yeah, it's kinda like that, unfortunately.

For SMG i would also consider taking Suppressive Fire + Opportunist. Suppressive fire gives debuffs for everyone in the cone of fire, and that debuff will proc Opportunist damage increase.

Maybe they buff it with the expansion, who knows.

We can hope