Iron Man / Permadeath runs on Dominating difficulty

[Shredded Cheddar]

I love Underrail. I want to dominate. I am excited for new expansion so I have decided to start new toons and really challenge myself. This is actually my first attempts at permadeath. I have played through the game before but save scumming and using alpha strikes so this new style of play has brought the excitement back into the game for me.

I have attempted several runs. My current run has gotten the furthest at level 5. I have been cherrypicking easiest fights and ways to get loot. Another part of my strategy was to head to junkyard and purchase metal armor blueprint in order to craft low quality steel armor 33%/12 in order to become immune to smaller rathounds so I can focus down alphas. While you can mess up and die in the beginning pretty easily the first real hurdle is rescuing newton from the psi beetles, which I am preparing to do tonight when I get off work. I have been trying to build up a stock of throwing nets, molotovs, and bear traps to assist me in this big fight. I plan to stop them from entering the double doors by blocking with fire, nets, and traps, and abusing line of sight and distance to blast them away with my AR.

S: 7
D: 3
A: 3
C: 10
P: 10
W: 3
I: 4 +

Feats: aimed shot, survival instincts, opportunist, thick skull

Skills:
Guns max
Throwing max
stealth max
hacking max
lockpicking max
mechanics max
electronics max
tailoring max

I plan to up int to 6 for armor sloping and to invest some in chem and bio for drugs, gas grenades, regen vest. then the rest into per. I will use regen super steel quad plated with super steel boots for high DR but retaining a little bit of movement. Use rathound bbq for str requirement.

Have any other hardcore Southgaters attempted a dominating permadeath run (looking at you Wildan)? If so please discuss your builds and strategies.

I forgot to add, for extra challenge and because I think it is OPOP, I have decided to forgo the use of quick tinkering. I know that it is the best defensive feat in the game for minimal investment.

[TheAverageGortsby]

Restarted a psi character and got to the Lunatic Mall before its first death.  I don't play Ironman so didn't restart, but that's probably as far as I could go without stealth.  Died again in Harpocrates, so clearly I suck at handling Lunatics.

Stealth is ridiculously OP, moreso I think than anything else.  There's another poster who beat Dominating with ARs at level 14, but they did save/load a lot.  If you pick your fights carefully you should be able to get to at least 22 before you absolutely have to do the really hard fights (like Emporion...), and by that point you should be able to sneak past the worst of it. 

Regardless, you may want to ask SubterminalOptimization for tips.  Though you've both got very different goals, you both are doing challenging Dominating runs with ARs, so you may find some useful knowledge there.  The thread is http://underrail.com/forums/index.php?topic=3388.0

[Shredded Cheddar]

Thanks for the reply friend, I checked it out but I didn't really learn anything. I think the problem is that the difference between permadeath vs. non-permadeath makes totally different builds and feats important. For example, defensive feats like thick skull or feats that make you more adaptable and prepared like quick pockets become much more valuable. If you play with reloads then you can simply reload because you got stunned and killed, or because you have the wrong grenades equipped for the situation and can't afford a turn to swap them out.

Run update: currently level seven in junkyard after completing GMS compound. Actually killed vencel and the thugs (not vince's gang, the thugs by the wormhole entrance) before going after the psi beetles. I definitely got lucky, was able to kill the three closer to the entrance and close the door before the ones in the back of the building even got sight of me. Then I used molotovs, throwing nets, and line of sight to kill the rest. I think I only got hit by 2 neural overloads. It went a lot smoother than expected, partly due to luck imo but also because of a decent quality compensated huszar I crafted from junkyard. GMS was super easy because of RNG (I found antithermic anti-rifle vest with 10 DT)

The biggest problem I have found is building up any store of combat stims. When the fight is not going my way I don't hesitate to use them because I don't want to take the risk. Trying to always keep at least 1 morphine, 1 antidote, 2 adrenaline on me just in case.

[SubterminalOptimization]

Hi - interesting premise.  I realize that this challenge is very different from a minimum-level challenge, but I do have to agree that this certainly seems like a valid and interesting puzzle.

Specifically, I'm interpreting your challenge as "start a new Dominating character and complete the game by taking train to Northern Underrail after killing Tchort without having ever died or loading your save (other than for taking breaks) and without any cheats/character imports/etc."

This would be a specific challenge case of a more general "minimize number of deaths and resulting loads" problem statement.  I realize this is all a bit obvious but I just want to state my assumptions/understanding up front.

I am not actually certain that your addition of the restriction "No Quick Tinkering" is largely relevant.  It certainly might be, but I am not currently sure if the feat and point investments just to obtain that would actually make a meaningful difference in the majority of cases.  In other words, are the highest risk areas actually areas that Quick Tinker helps with?  If not, Quick Tinkering doesn't actually do much.  For example, does Quick Tinkering protect you from DoppelGangers and Mental Subversion (Tchortlings) or Tentacles or Tithonus Ghosts?  I am pretty sure those are some of the biggest threats.

I also really think you and TheAverageGortsby have already touched on a lot key points here:

Stealth is ridiculously OP, moreso I think than anything else.

 If you pick your fights carefully ....

Avoiding as much combat as humanly possible is going to be key.

Having thought about this for a little bit and factoring in my current low-level experience, I think all of the following will apply at Level25 (and you have definitely mentioned some of these):

- Crafting is an absolute given because it is so absurdly (and consistently) broken, so all planning should account for at least 120 mechanics and likely ~100 electronics at least.
- Moderate Chemistry/Bio is also basically a given because it would be crazy to not have Aegis/Irongut/Jumping Bean/Focus Stims/Bull Head 100% of the time (they are insanely cheap for what they do)...and regen tailored vest probably makes sense (I haven't tested but in theory they do sounds like the single strongest combat armor type on Dominating).
- Lockpicking and hacking max (late game) are definitely partially wasted, especially since mechanics should ensure that you do not need IRIS check anyway, but definitely make sense as priority skills
- I am not actually certain whether Guns is optimal here (I have never played Psionic let alone Level 25 Psionic), but assuming you are doing Guns, obviously SmartMuzzled Hornets with FullAuto/ConcFire are easily optimal.
- I think JKK questline is by far the safest/most easily consistent via simple stealthing.
- I don't think Aimed Shot makes sense as a Feat as you should never be in a situation (I believe) where bursting or moving/consuming are not better choices.  Early on things are so much easier and re-attemptable that choosing a feat just for early game seems like a massive waste.
- Wherever possible, you should skip virtually every mission that involves combat unless you can formulaically win 100% of the time
  - In deep caverns bee-line for the knife quest and NEVER let Eye of Tchort get active except when you have to.
  - In deep caverns, the Tithonus lab is going to be insanely scary unless there are techniques I'm not aware of
  - For the T44 Manual laboratory: this place is VERY scary and random to pure stealth, even assuming you use gas mask and take southern route, but fighting can also go sideways fast since there are so many adds.  I would practice stealthing this area.
  - I would never do the IRIS fight (mechanics is a given)
  - I would never do Mushroom Forest without CAU armor and Irongut,
  - I would also NEVER do the final Free Drone Base Kill mission (waaay to risky and no payoff)
  - Do as few Arena fights as possible (just get your title and recognized by an Oligarch)
  - I would always stealth lunatic mall (a lot on the line / nerve wracking for sure, so practice is important, but since this can be done at lvl10 you should have an ENORMOUS margin in practice)
- Tchort fight is also going to be scary.  There are so many random ways to get killed or screwed by adds/tentacles even with Mutagen puzzle+TNT on tanks, but maybe not as bad as I think if you are fully optimized and have tons of drugs 

I think by far the scariest moments are all going to be in Deep Caverns (by a massive margin).  Have you done any testing or practice with your ideal 25 Character there?  I don't think that anything that comes before DC will be anywhere near as troublesome with planning.  Tithonus Lab in particular strikes me as the single most insane random showstopper with no recourse, so I'm very curious if there are in fact ways to mitigate the risk here.

[Shredded Cheddar]

Hello SubterminalOptimization. I like your name very much.

To answer some of your questions:

Your premise is correct. The goal is to complete the game on Dominating with 0 deaths/reloads. Obviously breaks will be included since I have to work, cook, lift, spend time with loved ones etc.

I didn't want to use quick tinkering because I think it is OP and this is a challenge run. IMHO quick tinkering is the single most powerful defensive feat in the game, and it doesn't take much investment. Quick tinkering actually does help with doppelgangers, when they step on a bear trap they lose all movement/action points for the turn (unless this has been changed, I haven't used quick tinkering in forever since I think it's OP).

To answer about aimed shot I want the option to have a sniper rifle in slot and delete a target before the battle starts. Since I am on ironman both planning and flexibility are very important. Also as far as skills, I only meant what I had maxed up to this point. At some point I will most likely be funneling points out of throwing, stealth, hacking, and lockpicking and pumping biology & chemistry to cover against certain hazards, some of which you've mentioned. Mental breakdown / incaps? solved with 80 bio. mobbed by death crawlers? irongut. As you've already pointed out, many gaps can be bridged through the use of crafting.

While I want my playthrough to be as certain as possible that does not mean I am going to avoid fights I can lose. In my opinion that is part of the fun of it  .

Guns are most likely not optimal since psi is OP and can't miss, but I'm not a fan of psi and armor piercing bullets are extremely powerful.

You're definitely right that the most hurdles will be found in deep caverns so maybe when I get an iron man run close enough to that point I will use another of my chars to do some testing and practice in there before I head down.

I found your idea for a challenge run to be interesting as well, to minimize the requirements to complete the game. How did you get this idea? Was it from speedrunning? Do you plan on attempting a speedrun at some point?

[harperfan7]

I just want to note that fights that are hard for some builds aren't hard for others.  My sneaky trap-laying crossbow sniper on hard did the mall on the first try, and barely had to actually fight anybody, whereas RH King for example took me many tries. 

[SubterminalOptimization]

Hello SubterminalOptimization. I like your name very much.

Thanks, I like cheddar so we are even!

Quick tinkering actually does help with doppelgangers, when they step on a bear trap they lose all movement/action points for the turn (unless this has been changed, I haven't used quick tinkering in forever since I think it's OP).

Interesting.  I just did some lazy tests right now using save files I had on hand.  Tithonus Lab Ghosts are definitely immune to immobilization/traps.  Doppelgangers on Silent Isle can spawn, walk over a bear trap (also says Immune), and still hit you in the same turn.  I don't know if this is applicable for Quick Tinkering but I will extrapolate for the moment that it is.

I realize this point is moot from your perspective (you are absolutely free to run with whatever parameters you wish and find fun) but I think it's interesting because I don't generally like to add too many constraints, especially if they are not "necessary."  What I mean by that is that I'm still not convinced that the truest most opimal build for no-death-run success would actually want to invest the Base Ability Points, Skill Points, and Feat Slot all just for this one ability.  It's possible, but my thinking is still focused on the idea that you need to optimize for the highest risk situations and not necessarily for something that would be all-around-helpful but not address the toughest points of the run.

To answer about aimed shot I want the option to have a sniper rifle in slot and delete a target before the battle starts. Since I am on ironman both planning and flexibility are very important

I see.  Again, it only makes sense for you to play the way that is most enjoyable, so I certainly wouldn't raise any objection.  However, from my perspective I don't think that is optimal unless you specifically know that you need it in order to complete the run.  And if I were to do such a run (which I may very well end up doing) I would want to plan out every quest and kill ahead of time to make sure nothing is unnecessary or lower probability than it has to be.  Perhaps there is value in sniping for Mushroom Forest or even Tchort Fight, I'm not certain, but my initial thinking is that surely there must be a better survivability or damage feat that you could use ~100% of the time rather than occassionally.

As you've already pointed out, many gaps can be bridged through the use of crafting.

Yes that plan makes perfect sense and I strongly suspect it is fully optimal.

While I want my playthrough to be as certain as possible that does not mean I am going to avoid fights I can lose. In my opinion that is part of the fun of it

Ah  .  We definitely have different approaches to fun here which is fine.  In my iteration of Iron Man (if I do it), I would definitely prefer to optimize to get as near to 100% success rate as possible, ideally doing absolutely nothing that is optional.  My perspective is that of a "puzzle solution" rather than an action game, so I think that is why I have a different outlook.

Guns are most likely not optimal since psi is OP and can't miss,

Yes, that sounds like it might be true but humorously I have still never actually played a Psi Character, let alone a fully optimized Level 25 Psi, despite planning to possibly do so and ending up doing an AR run multiple times now.  It's definitely a gap in my knowledge about this game but I am similarly trying to optimize my focus on what is necessary for my current run (sub-Level-10) before learning anything else.

I found your idea for a challenge run to be interesting as well, to minimize the requirements to complete the game. How did you get this idea? Was it from speedrunning? Do you plan on attempting a speedrun at some point?

Although I am a fan of speedruns (not necessarily the grinding but more the routing and strategies) I don't currently have any plans for an Underrail speedrun (though maybe one day I would route for it...that part interests me but I would never have the time to do repeated 6+ hour runs back to back to back).

What actually inspired me for the runs that I am doing would be a combination of several factors (probably no single factor would be enough):
 - I have a huge interest in puzzle games but usually they are too easy or too dishonest (rely on hidden information and brute force) but this challenge (and Iron Man) would be honest custom puzzles.  I did something similar for the classic Fallout games (but for those I already knew speedrun-routing techniques found by others).
 - My wife complained Underrail was "impossible" on Normal (she has beaten the game on Normal now)
 - Although I did die a fair amount, I was a little disappointed by how easy Dominating was
 - I saw a lot of forum complaints on Steam and here saying that Dominating and/or Deep Caverns was too hard
 - So I wanted to post/tell everybody "that's silly, there is a huge margin and that margin is: X Levels" so I figured I better test and find out the value for X

I just want to note that fights that are hard for some builds aren't hard for others.  My sneaky trap-laying crossbow sniper on hard did the mall on the first try, and barely had to actually fight anybody, whereas RH King for example took me many tries. 

I definitely agree with this to an extent, and it makes sense for a generally well-designed balanced game.  However, a perfectly-balanced or even near-perfectly-balanced game is ***extremely*** rare and difficult to achieve.  I don't blame game developers for this because it is just a fact of math and variety.  Specifically for Underrail, which I do consider a well-designed game, I strongly suspect that at almost any given Level there is a single most-optimal build for purposes of a no-death-run.  Similarly, I am certain that only a handful of builds can possibly complete a Dominating run at Level 10 but I'm sure many more variations can succeed at Level 16 or 25.

[Tygrende]

Doppelgangers in Tithonus Lab are not that dangerous, they reset when you leave the area. If one of them spots you, just run to the exit and try again.

[SubterminalOptimization]

Doppelgangers in Tithonus Lab are not that dangerous, they reset when you leave the area. If one of them spots you, just run to the exit and try again.

Ah, didn't know that.  That's unusual (virtually all other screens hostility does not "reset" when you transition off of it).  I'm also used to dying to them in one turn at low level .  I guess you can still get in trouble if they lock you in/surround you, but it does sound as though Tithonus would generally not be a problem then.