Author Topic: Stealth, Pickpocketing, and a few other things  (Read 8097 times)

Blyr

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Stealth, Pickpocketing, and a few other things
« on: March 21, 2013, 12:34:04 am »
First of all, I'd like to say that this is a FANTASTIC game, and I've been recommending it to all of my friends, as well as promoting it where possible. Seriously, beautiful work and I can't wait for the final product. :)

That said, I've played the demo about 10 times, and finally updated to 1.6 to come up with a list of "useless" skills for the "min/maxer".

I haven't touched the psychic stuff yet, but a new character, I generally pump what I can into Perception, and Intelligence, and a min. of 6pts (can upgrade to 7 later) for assault rifles. Other skills are dropped to 3 or left at 5 because they serve no purpose for a general gunslinger.

Crossbows are a very nice sniper alternative with a lot of good utility bolts, but they feel very much like a "secondary" weapon to carry around, with your primary, due to the penalties to move and shoot and CQC, leaving guns at the top. Assault rifles are pretty much the best guns at the moment due to high range, high power, and low AP cost. There are of course setbacks (no knee shot, STR requirement, etc.) but if you're building your character based on assault rifles, then it's not that big of a loss.

I couldn't find a way to use stealth effectively in the game, because any action would bring me out of stealth, and there weren't any bonuses for attacking from stealth (that I could notice) so eventually it went on my "scrap" list. That meant pickpocketing was useless too.. (and you can't even use it in combat mode). The problem with stealth is that outside of combat (for thief/burglar characters) NPC's are constantly running stealth checks on you, where as in other games, once your stealth is high enough, you're damn near invisible unless you're in broad daylight and standing right infront of them. I know this is all due to balancing, but in the end, I just tossed stealth altogether.

Melee only runs proved to be nigh impossible, as my melee only character died repeatedly at the first 3 bandits from a certain quest. I reloaded and tried stealth, and every tactic I could possibly think of, but it all ended up with me getting my face shot off before I could land an attack. It was FANTASTIC in the early game with all the rats attacking me directly, and being able to run up to psi-beetles, but when fighting enemies who used guns, I get obliterated. There's a good chance I built my character wrong, but at that low of a level (3-4ish) I shouldn't be getting killed in 1 turn. It also makes melee seem like a "secondary" skill, to have along with your primary. It'd pair well with crossbows, actually, which is something I"m going to try on another char.

The crafting skills..
Mechanics and Tailoring are a MUST MAX because almost everything requires mechanics for weapons, and tailoring is incredibly useful for helping you scrape together cash in the early game, as well as providing useful armor in the later game. Mechanics was very situational... if I were running a crossbow build, I'd definitely take it, but for my current run, I've ignored it completely. Biology, I left it at 20 for the feat to use bandages to heal, and that's it. Crafting hypos takes a ton of ingredients, and it's just easier and more efficient to buy them in the early game. Biology, I'm slowly leveling it for specific armor, and to try out chemical weapons to see how they fair.. so it's iffy on that.

Persuasion, Intimidate, and Mercantile. They're all very optional, as the game isn't complete yet i'm sure there will be many occasions for them, I personally just max mercantile to help my character early in the game.

Oh, and traps. Trap skill, I constantly level it when I have points to spare, because detecting traps is too useful. It's made the difference between life and death, especially when killing a certain to finish a quest at the end of alpha.

Just my impressions so far, as someone who likes to find the absolute "best" and trim the fat for builds where each point matters, that's what I've come up with.

All in all though, this game is INCREDIBLY balanced from what I've seen, and compared to other games (where one option is flat out better than the other *coughfallout3cough*). It's also incredibly difficult, and I love it for that. I died 15 times against my first mutant, until I learned to set caltrops and use knee shots whenever possible. Still very difficult, but it was worth it.

Again, fantastic game, eagerly awaiting the next alpha release, and i've convinced about ~15 people to atleast try the demo, with one of my RL friends saying he's buying it next paycheck. :)

WolveNZ

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Re: Stealth, Pickpocketing, and a few other things
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2013, 05:11:53 pm »
Ok, just adding in my little bit here:

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Stealth:
It does have some advantages, I pretty much had it on all the time when I thought their might be danger, it just allows you that Second to go "Oh shit theirs someone down this corridor, ENTER"

Quote
Persuasion, Intimidate, and Mercantile:
I think I would have a few points taken from my Crafting skills and chuck then into here if I knew they would be usefull, right now its iffy as I know having a nice set of armour, grenades and a gun is better than a couple of little bits where I can get though the area without going gun-ho. If we had allot more, and Styg told us that it is a Game changer then I would put some in

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There are of course setbacks (no knee shot, STR requirement, etc.) but if you're building your character based on assault rifles, then it's not that big of a loss.
I think Weapon (effective) Ranges should be Increased, as Right now even with an Assault rifle you only get a couple of extra shots off in an engagement, if that, Before you have some Dick with a Hammer in your face.
Also, .44 Pistol (Or was it .40?). Not Effective over 7.62 or 8.6. AP Cost is just a tad to High, Or the Damage needs to be Buffed just a Tad to make it usefull, Right now its very "Miss, Your Fucked"

DarkWan

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Re: Stealth, Pickpocketing, and a few other things
« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2013, 07:07:28 pm »
I completed a few v1.6 alpha playthroughs and don't know where to put my feedback, so guess starting here.

Quote
Quote
Stealth:
It does have some advantages, I pretty much had it on all the time when I thought their might be danger, it just allows you that Second to go "Oh shit theirs someone down this corridor, ENTER"

I find stealth really useful and I haven't even picked the perks to make more use of it. Getting closer to enemies to initiate first attack makes alot of the battles much easier. Or wait for the mobs gather in a spot then throw a grenade.

Quote
Quote
Persuasion, Intimidate, and Mercantile:
I think I would have a few points taken from my Crafting skills and chuck then into here if I knew they would be usefull, right now its iffy as I know having a nice set of armour, grenades and a gun is better than a couple of little bits where I can get though the area without going gun-ho. If we had allot more, and Styg told us that it is a Game changer then I would put some in

I agree Persuation and Intimidate seems useless atm. The most important Persuation check for me was the Burrower cave, but later I found out you didn't need it to get entrance. Intimidate didn't work out at all for me, most of the speech resulted me getting attacked, even when I had it at max. I guess I could have gotten a little higher skill with appropriate armor.
I tried the Yell perk (based on Intimidate skill) but didn't notice any significant changes, and when it's most needed it's either resisted or they are immune.

Quote
Also, .44 Pistol (Or was it .40?). Not Effective over 7.62 or 8.6. AP Cost is just a tad to High, Or the Damage needs to be Buffed just a Tad to make it usefull, Right now its very "Miss, Your Fucked"

Here I have to disagree. I find the .44 Pistol overpowered. Paired it with Sneak (get closer) and Aimed Shot (for crit), most of the enemies are one-shotted. In my latest build I had Sprint also so I could retreat if the shot failed or the enemy survived or there were many. The secondary hand held a SMG so I could fire once with each gun per round.
The quality of the guns matters, did you find bad .44 Pistols?

Major_Blackhart

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Re: Stealth, Pickpocketing, and a few other things
« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2013, 11:34:52 pm »
My crafting has gone overboard on this current level 13 character I got, and goddamn I am loving it.
I have a regenerative anti-rifle vest with a normal mechanical value of 13 (doubled against bullets) and bam, I'm actually pretty damn high up on the food chain.

Styg

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Re: Stealth, Pickpocketing, and a few other things
« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2013, 08:24:40 pm »
Here are my thoughts regarding the OP.

Snipe attack scales with stealth, so in addition to the obvious advantage of picking your fights, stealth also helps you in combat directly if you go for sniper or crossbow build.

In 0.1.6.0 crossbows are so damn powerful. In the new version I had to nerf the special bolt damage across the board.

Melee is pretty ok for sledgehammers and knives I think. It doesn't have enough feats to support it well yet, but it is more than viable atm. Unarmed needs love, but I'll talk about that later (in another thread).

I beat the three bandits you mentioned unarmed melee + 1 grenade no problem, but I agree that this encounter might be a bit too hard for how early you can reach it.

Crafting will help you a lot in the new economy (0.1.7.0), also there will be stuff in the future (such as weapon/armor mods) that will only be available through crafting.

Social skills are hard to balance (except mercantile) as they require specific content to be useful. I'm trying to integrate them in some of the mechanics of the game as well to boost their usefulness. Bear with me on this one.

Stealing is broken, I'm fixing that soon, I promise.

@Major_Blackhart It's bonus 200%, or in other words 3x. And that's some sick armor you've got there :)

Major_Blackhart

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Re: Stealth, Pickpocketing, and a few other things
« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2013, 09:23:09 pm »
You goddamn right it is.

DarkWan

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Re: Stealth, Pickpocketing, and a few other things
« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2013, 02:39:06 am »
My crafting has gone overboard on this current level 13 character I got, and goddamn I am loving it.
I have a regenerative anti-rifle vest with a normal mechanical value of 13 (doubled against bullets) and bam, I'm actually pretty damn high up on the food chain.

I find the tactical vest have a bit too high encumbrance (65%) for it's use and I am a little more worried about melee damage then ranged. So went all out on making a regen tungsten steel armor instead. Mechanical value at 21 (Mechanic skill 69 to make).
While making this armor I found a bug, by moving the high quality steelplate from first optional slot to second then third lowered the skill requirement, 78 - 74 - 69. The stats remained same.
I haven't engaged in many battles with the armor yet to make my mind if its useful enough, but I am really missing my normal movementpoints. I had a little hope that my boots of Strider would still give me the extra movementpoints but they didn't.
I usually end my playthroughs with killing Wyatt and in this same playthrough I found the TNT blueprint for the first time ;)
Reading the dev log for 0.1.7.0 now I know why my Telekinetic Punch was so weak. All my previous game I had Metathermics as my main PSI. I tried without Metathermics this time, really miss the Pyrokinesis. Back to Telekinetic Punch, I was trying to use it with the Execute feat, but it doesn't seems to work, can't see the 250% damage it's supposed to do.

Sorry for being off-topic.
Now waiting for the latest patch on GamersGate....

Styg

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Re: Stealth, Pickpocketing, and a few other things
« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2013, 04:24:32 am »
My crafting has gone overboard on this current level 13 character I got, and goddamn I am loving it.
I have a regenerative anti-rifle vest with a normal mechanical value of 13 (doubled against bullets) and bam, I'm actually pretty damn high up on the food chain.

I find the tactical vest have a bit too high encumbrance (65%) for it's use and I am a little more worried about melee damage then ranged. So went all out on making a regen tungsten steel armor instead. Mechanical value at 21 (Mechanic skill 69 to make).
While making this armor I found a bug, by moving the high quality steelplate from first optional slot to second then third lowered the skill requirement, 78 - 74 - 69. The stats remained same.
I haven't engaged in many battles with the armor yet to make my mind if its useful enough, but I am really missing my normal movementpoints. I had a little hope that my boots of Strider would still give me the extra movementpoints but they didn't.
I usually end my playthroughs with killing Wyatt and in this same playthrough I found the TNT blueprint for the first time ;)
Reading the dev log for 0.1.7.0 now I know why my Telekinetic Punch was so weak. All my previous game I had Metathermics as my main PSI. I tried without Metathermics this time, really miss the Pyrokinesis. Back to Telekinetic Punch, I was trying to use it with the Execute feat, but it doesn't seems to work, can't see the 250% damage it's supposed to do.

Sorry for being off-topic.
Now waiting for the latest patch on GamersGate....

Will check out the bugs you mentioned. Btw, tactical vests is only so cumbersome if you add anti-rifle plating.

DarkWan

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Re: Stealth, Pickpocketing, and a few other things
« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2013, 07:42:03 am »
Quote

Will check out the bugs you mentioned. Btw, tactical vests is only so cumbersome if you add anti-rifle plating.

Let me know if you need my save file, I have a save outside Junktown before crafting it. Only need to buy the Metal Armor blueprint first.
I just tried to reproduce the bug again, it shows up only if you use more than 1 optional slots.

DarkWan

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Re: Stealth, Pickpocketing, and a few other things
« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2013, 02:14:57 pm »
Telekinetic Punch + Execute is working, atleast on the mutants. Not sure why it didn't activate before.
Is there a limit to what kind of monsters it can be used on? Or do some of enemies have immunity?