is this a good pistol/smg build?

[infamousraziel]

BASE STATS:

STR- 3
DEX-15 [will use eel food for 16]
AGL- 8
CON- 3
PER- 10
WILL- 3
INT- 4


SKILLS:

MAX guns, dodge, evasion, mechanics, tailoring, electronics, 115 biology [for SS drug], 50 throwing, 50 stealth, and 55 lockpicking [between all the synergies and lockpick mk2 bonus w/ jacknife it ends up being 135 in the end.]

FEATS:
aimed shot
rapid fire
point shot
kneecap shot
sprint
gunslinger
grenadier
expertise
sharpshooter
uncanny dodge
nimble
paranoia
spec ops
commando

[harperfan7]

I typed up a big reply on steam and the thread was gone when I hit reply.

[paulkirikawa]

IMO, first of all, I'm not suggesting you to use pistol as SMG backup. Pistols are highly rely on special attacks (you can use them as Sniper Rifle backup), with SMG you only need point blank burst, charge to another enemy, rinse & repeat.

For combat:
You have uber DEX, and I assume (1)you're not going to play ironman (2)you're not going to use throwing knife or Three-Pointer, so 30 point in Throwing (around 60 effective at Lv24) for Grenadier is fine.
Pick Grenadier/Spec Ops later than Lv4/Lv8 is very unwise. With Grenadier at Lv4 and Spec Ops at Lv8 you can make 20s cooldown for flashbang, 10s cooldown for damage dealing 'nades (You need Molly for potential crowd control) at very early game. Also Quick Tinkering at Lv4 have proven its value. Crowd controlling is the first priority, please enhance your damage output later than that. Otherwise you'd find that despite you can take 1~2 enemy out in the first turn, other enemy can take you out in the next turn, remember you have only 3 CON pal.
10 PER is not enough for pistol, and too much for SMG. I don't know you are going to play experimental version or not, that new feat Versatility is a good feat for SMG/melee builds. You can exchange PER for AGI or other stats, invest 50 or 80 in guns for important feat.
I thought nimble is enough for passive defense, when you have trouble dealing crawlers, Uncanny Dodge is also good. You don't need three feat to enhance your passive defense, it's better to max out crowd controlling because you don't evase Electromagnetic Burst or Neural Overload.

For subterfuge & crafting:
50 stealth is good in early game, and a joke in Lv25. Max it out and get bonus from overcoat fabric, balaclava, cloaking device... You have decent crafting score, so make it function. 135 effective lockpicking is a little too much, you can make it 100 to save some point. Quick Tinkering is good for traps, most enemy won't spot a little beartrap in one turn. Uber DEX, decent Mechanics score, synergy with Lockpicking... all good reason to invest 25 Traps for a AP free immbilizing effect.
Consider that energy shields have various addons, 135 effective Electronics is okay, but max out Mechanics & Tailoring don't make sense. Components' quality was capped at 160 max, you need 128 crafting score to deal best components, albeit best components are very rare and you have basement workbench crafting bonus.
As a gunner (to be honest, a bullet spamming triggerhappy) you need 50 Mechanics & 15 Chemistry in early game keeping healthy AMRK (Advanced Mechanical Repair Kit) and bullet supply. Later 20 Chemistry, for handmade W2C bullets.

For Social:
Have 25 effective Merchantile to unlock Blaine's special if you don't want to searching all Underrail for god darned JHP/W2C blueprint...

Hint:
There's a rewarding device provides 20 lockpicking bonus after you complete a special side questline.

P.S. This is my SMG/melee char at Lv20 (with some ideal tweak), I hope you can find something useful for your own build.

-Base-
STR 3
DEX 15
AGI 10
CON 3
PER 6
WIL 3
INT 5

-Skills-
Guns 80 (127 from Versatility)
Throwing 30 (58)
Melee 110 (212)
Dodge, Evasion & Stealth 110 (166)
Lockpicking 45 (101)
Traps 31 (74)
Mechanics 110 (119)
Electronics 37 (40)
Chemistry 15 (20)
Biology 45 (50, I love Focus Stim)
Merchantile 47 (50)

-Feats-
1. Suppresive Fire & Sprint (maybe change it for Hit and Run)
2. Opportunist
4. Quick Tinkering ('nades are expensive in early game)
6. Expose Weakness (very important)
8. Spec Ops
10. Blitz
12. Grenadier
14. Commando (invested 80, effective 93)
16. Versatility (I can receive its bonus when effective Melee beyond 155)
18. Expertise
20. Dirty Kick

[infamousraziel]

I typed up a big reply on steam and the thread was gone when I hit reply.

sorry, i ended up changing a bunch of things and figured id just take it down.

[infamousraziel]

IMO, first of all, I'm not suggesting you to use pistol as SMG backup. Pistols are highly rely on special attacks (you can use them as Sniper Rifle backup), with SMG you only need point blank burst, charge to another enemy, rinse & repeat.

For combat:
You have uber DEX, and I assume (1)you're not going to play ironman (2)you're not going to use throwing knife or Three-Pointer, so 30 point in Throwing (around 60 effective at Lv24) for Grenadier is fine.
Pick Grenadier/Spec Ops later than Lv4/Lv8 is very unwise. With Grenadier at Lv4 and Spec Ops at Lv8 you can make 20s cooldown for flashbang, 10s cooldown for damage dealing 'nades (You need Molly for potential crowd control) at very early game. Also Quick Tinkering at Lv4 have proven its value. Crowd controlling is the first priority, please enhance your damage output later than that. Otherwise you'd find that despite you can take 1~2 enemy out in the first turn, other enemy can take you out in the next turn, remember you have only 3 CON pal.
10 PER is not enough for pistol, and too much for SMG. I don't know you are going to play experimental version or not, that new feat Versatility is a good feat for SMG/melee builds. You can exchange PER for AGI or other stats, invest 50 or 80 in guns for important feat.
I thought nimble is enough for passive defense, when you have trouble dealing crawlers, Uncanny Dodge is also good. You don't need three feat to enhance your passive defense, it's better to max out crowd controlling because you don't evase Electromagnetic Burst or Neural Overload.

For subterfuge & crafting:
50 stealth is good in early game, and a joke in Lv25. Max it out and get bonus from overcoat fabric, balaclava, cloaking device... You have decent crafting score, so make it function. 135 effective lockpicking is a little too much, you can make it 100 to save some point. Quick Tinkering is good for traps, most enemy won't spot a little beartrap in one turn. Uber DEX, decent Mechanics score, synergy with Lockpicking... all good reason to invest 25 Traps for a AP free immbilizing effect.
Consider that energy shields have various addons, 135 effective Electronics is okay, but max out Mechanics & Tailoring don't make sense. Components' quality was capped at 160 max, you need 128 crafting score to deal best components, albeit best components are very rare and you have basement workbench crafting bonus.
As a gunner (to be honest, a bullet spamming triggerhappy) you need 50 Mechanics & 15 Chemistry in early game keeping healthy AMRK (Advanced Mechanical Repair Kit) and bullet supply. Later 20 Chemistry, for handmade W2C bullets.

For Social:
Have 25 effective Merchantile to unlock Blaine's special if you don't want to searching all Underrail for god darned JHP/W2C blueprint...

Hint:
There's a rewarding device provides 20 lockpicking bonus after you complete a special side questline.

P.S. This is my SMG/melee char at Lv20 (with some ideal tweak), I hope you can find something useful for your own build.

-Base-
STR 3
DEX 15
AGI 10
CON 3
PER 6
WIL 3
INT 5

-Skills-
Guns 80 (127 from Versatility)
Throwing 30 (58)
Melee 110 (212)
Dodge, Evasion & Stealth 110 (166)
Lockpicking 45 (101)
Traps 31 (74)
Mechanics 110 (119)
Electronics 37 (40)
Chemistry 15 (20)
Biology 45 (50, I love Focus Stim)
Merchantile 47 (50)

-Feats-
1. Suppresive Fire & Sprint (maybe change it for Hit and Run)
2. Opportunist
4. Quick Tinkering ('nades are expensive in early game)
6. Expose Weakness (very important)
8. Spec Ops
10. Blitz
12. Grenadier
14. Commando (invested 80, effective 93)
16. Versatility (I can receive its bonus when effective Melee beyond 155)
18. Expertise
20. Dirty Kick

how much perception is needed for handguns?

[paulkirikawa]

how much perception is needed for handguns?

It's not a restriction or something... 10 PER and 135 Guns skill = 203 effective Guns = 242% damage modifier. You have to face darkness, long range, Creeping Dread, The Eye of Tchort and probably Intimidated, with these nerf you may found it's hard to hit enemy. When you play a bullet spammer, 20+ burst rounds per turn have a lot of chance to hit, and what if you lose an Aimed Shot with amplified plasma pistol? RNG rig.
I have had a failed energy/firearm pistol playthrough, mostly energy because crit damage is dominating, ran out of batteries in Deep Cavern. From my experience, 12 PER -> 226 effective Guns would make your pistol damage output a bit more better, increase accuracy, 13 DEX +1 sandwich to keep laser pistol 10AP per shot, and a 12AP (Gunslinger) Smart Rapid Neo Luger for back up. General Feats, ambush is a must, dump STR because Steadfast Aim looks good, but if I can pick SA I can carry a bloody sniper rifle either, which I'd choose to dump DEX and boost PER to 16.

[harperfan7]

SS drug requires 130 effective biology, and you won't have the crafting benches for that.

With 10 Per, like paul says, you'll only have 203 which will often be lower (on top of distance/darkness penalties if any).  With 15 dex, you may as well dump per to 3 and boost dex to 16 and melee to 135 skill and take versatility, which would give you 170 effective guns.  You'd still need however much guns skill for feats prerequisites.  You could use stuff like dirty kick/taser/flashbang/nets (with throwing)/bear traps (quick tinkering) or even incapacitation with cheap shots or pneumatic gloves, in order to bring your enemies dodge/evasion to 0 and giving you 95% chance to hit virtually regardless of your actual skill. 

I'm playing a no-crafting gunslinger on dominating in the new update and I'm level 16 and doing very good, a lot better than I expected.  I barely have any gun feats (gunslinger, expertise, execute).  I have 10 dex and started with 8 per which will end up at 14.  I use a 5mm at 10 AP and a .44 at 24 AP. 

Anyway, I think leaving dex at 10 and maxing per is generally the better option, then focus on crit chance (goggles, infused rathound leather, focus stim). 

[infamousraziel]

SS drug requires 130 effective biology, and you won't have the crafting benches for that.

With 10 Per, like paul says, you'll only have 203 which will often be lower (on top of distance/darkness penalties if any).  With 15 dex, you may as well dump per to 3 and boost dex to 16 and melee to 135 skill and take versatility, which would give you 170 effective guns.  You'd still need however much guns skill for feats prerequisites.  You could use stuff like dirty kick/taser/flashbang/nets (with throwing)/bear traps (quick tinkering) or even incapacitation with cheap shots or pneumatic gloves, in order to bring your enemies dodge/evasion to 0 and giving you 95% chance to hit virtually regardless of your actual skill. 

I'm playing a no-crafting gunslinger on dominating in the new update and I'm level 16 and doing very good, a lot better than I expected.  I barely have any gun feats (gunslinger, expertise, execute).  I have 10 dex and started with 8 per which will end up at 14.  I use a 5mm at 10 AP and a .44 at 24 AP. 

Anyway, I think leaving dex at 10 and maxing per is generally the better option, then focus on crit chance (goggles, infused rathound leather, focus stim).

thanks for telling me that, didnt know you needed 130 flat bio. thought you could use the crafting benches. never got that far yet.

[Ploluap]

Your build looks interesting ! though lacking a bit of crowd control i think (only flash bangs and taser i guess, maybe electroshock pistol ?).

What will be your main weapons ?

I see no reason to wait lvl 22 for spec ops, it's such a good feat, if you want it take it as soon as possible !

 Also with those stats i'd pick escape artist because i hate dying to throwing nets and acid entanglement, but it's not mandatory.

Otherwise i usually chose higher int for more "breathing room" (dunno if you can say that in english) skill points wise, but if you cheked 4 int was enough fo your needs it's all for the best.

[infamousraziel]

yeah the only CC i have is the throwing skill/taser

main weapon will be pistol usually, unless theres an smg thats better. but chances are ill usually have one smg and one pistol equipped. my crafting levels are JUST ENOUGH by the time i hit the end of the game i can craft everything i need.

[Bruno]

SS drug requires 130 effective biology, and you won't have the crafting benches for that.

With 10 Per, like paul says, you'll only have 203 which will often be lower (on top of distance/darkness penalties if any).  With 15 dex, you may as well dump per to 3 and boost dex to 16 and melee to 135 skill and take versatility, which would give you 170 effective guns.  You'd still need however much guns skill for feats prerequisites.  You could use stuff like dirty kick/taser/flashbang/nets (with throwing)/bear traps (quick tinkering) or even incapacitation with cheap shots or pneumatic gloves, in order to bring your enemies dodge/evasion to 0 and giving you 95% chance to hit virtually regardless of your actual skill. 

I'm playing a no-crafting gunslinger on dominating in the new update and I'm level 16 and doing very good, a lot better than I expected.  I barely have any gun feats (gunslinger, expertise, execute).  I have 10 dex and started with 8 per which will end up at 14.  I use a 5mm at 10 AP and a .44 at 24 AP. 

Anyway, I think leaving dex at 10 and maxing per is generally the better option, then focus on crit chance (goggles, infused rathound leather, focus stim).

Do you mind sharing what general tactics you use, and other useful feats?
Trying to make a gunslinger work myself, with excellent initiative. I am pretty fragile, so struggle with surviving explotions and psi damage, and having enough damage output. Do you get good mileage out of the execute feat?

[harperfan7]

Do you mind sharing what general tactics you use, and other useful feats?
Trying to make a gunslinger work myself, with excellent initiative. I am pretty fragile, so struggle with surviving explotions and psi damage, and having enough damage output. Do you get good mileage out of the execute feat?

Maxed stealth (stealth gear except for crit goggles) and traps (+trappers belt/jack knife).  Nets/caltrops/grenades.  Feats are:  Paranoia, Gunslinger (had max initiative at 1st level; only failed once against another gunslinger), Interloper, Opportunist, Expertise, Quick Tinkering, Blitz, Ambush, Execute, Grenadier (im at 16th right now).  I've barely made use of ambush; I'm not using incendiaries much so far, just flares and that barely ever works.  Execute is even rarer because I don't use flashbangs much yet, don't have a tazer, and only occasionally bust out the crawler knives.  It's honestly not so much a gunslinger build as a stealth/traps/utilities build; I mainly use the pistols to mop up or deal good damage to a bear-trapped enemy (and a significant initiative boost).  10 agility + interloper + stealth gear means I never have problems sneaking around, even without custom gear.  But even when I'm surprised, I do well because of initiative, speed, dodge/evasion, and accuracy (LS pistols, usually 95% even at a distance).  Lots of options makes a difference too. 

Basically the trick is to never let your enemies get to attack you; you move around a corner, shoot them, then move away. 

S3/D10/A10/C3/P8(++++++)/W3/I3.  Max throw/guns/dodge/evasion/stealth/lock/hax/traps, until about 60 points in locks then I started pumping bio with those points.

[Bruno]

Do you mind sharing what general tactics you use, and other useful feats?
Trying to make a gunslinger work myself, with excellent initiative. I am pretty fragile, so struggle with surviving explotions and psi damage, and having enough damage output. Do you get good mileage out of the execute feat?

Maxed stealth (stealth gear except for crit goggles) and traps (+trappers belt/jack knife).  Nets/caltrops/grenades.  Feats are:  Paranoia, Gunslinger (had max initiative at 1st level; only failed once against another gunslinger), Interloper, Opportunist, Expertise, Quick Tinkering, Blitz, Ambush, Execute, Grenadier (im at 16th right now).  I've barely made use of ambush; I'm not using incendiaries much so far, just flares and that barely ever works.  Execute is even rarer because I don't use flashbangs much yet, don't have a tazer, and only occasionally bust out the crawler knives.  It's honestly not so much a gunslinger build as a stealth/traps/utilities build; I mainly use the pistols to mop up or deal good damage to a bear-trapped enemy (and a significant initiative boost).  10 agility + interloper + stealth gear means I never have problems sneaking around, even without custom gear.  But even when I'm surprised, I do well because of initiative, speed, dodge/evasion, and accuracy (LS pistols, usually 95% even at a distance).  Lots of options makes a difference too. 

Basically the trick is to never let your enemies get to attack you; you move around a corner, shoot them, then move away. 

S3/D10/A10/C3/P8(++++++)/W3/I3.  Max throw/guns/dodge/evasion/stealth/lock/hax/traps, until about 60 points in locks then I started pumping bio with those points.

Thanks a lot!
Very much like my build, though I prefer Pack Rathound to carry more junk, I mean equipment. Also Traps Expert to keep Traps skill at synergy level, and not experience the 10 second disarm time.
Good that you are doing well without crafted gear.

I will try to play a less powerful variant of this character, that sacrifice 3 points of AGI and put 2 points in CON and 1 point in INT. Also drop Dodge and sone Throw/Traps/Bio, and take Persuation+Mercantile instead. I hope it will work decently.