Why exactly 95% accuracy cap is a thing?

[Tamior]

From a game-balance perspective, why exactly do "normal" weapons need a 95% accuracy cap? How this benefits game-play?

Don't get me wrong, I know automatic hits/misses on 1 and 20 on d20 are a time-honored tradition in d&d (and d20 systems in general), but in single player games (with reloads) these caps have been cycled out for a very good reason: they neither make much sense (why should a sniper who is taking a shot from stealth with all the time in the world to line the shot miss 5% of the time?!) nor add much to the game-play (because, in practice, that's just an instant save reload if that shot was of critical importance). It's even more bizarre knowing that psions suffer from no such cap, so it's rather clear that game-mechanics at large are not somehow "broken" by attacks having 100% to-hit chance.

Even in XCOM franchise (games widely known for having very harsh and unforgiving %-chance-based gameplay) caps are not imposed on accuracy: if you CAN get your hit-chance to 100%, you don't miss, ever.

TL;DR: it seems like 95% accuracy cap on normal weapons (especially on the opening shot from stealth) is either doing nothing (because players just instantly reload) or, assuming a player is trying to limit the number of reloads, it disproportionately benefits psions and punishes everyone else.

[TheAverageGortsby]

Well, psions don't burst single-target damage like sledges or snipers. Sure, a crit Cryo Orb is sweet but you won't see a psion landing a 7k Psionic Execute crit on someone.  And even with 16 Will, the spammable psi attacks do roughly single-shot gun damage (and cost more AP, too; especially if you aren't using Tranquility).  So that part is sort of apples and oranges; psi is just different.

Of course, all told, psi is really very strong, but that's not to do with hit chances so much as an excessive synergy in psi abilities that other attack mechanics can't match, plus the incomparable OP-ness of Premeditation and LoC.  Though you could of course just let that sniper pick up Temporal Manipulation, ambush snipe or aimed shot crit, Entropic Recurrence, and skedaddle - nothing's coming back from that precipice.

I've played most every high-level build possible in UnderRail (which is an embarrassing admission to how many hours I've put into this game) and the miss chance doesn't feel unfair to me.  The miss chance for normal weapons is part of what differentiates characters.  Normal weapons have a greater risk management requirement because of that miss chance, but pay off in higher single-target damage, higher frequency of attack, lower cost for individual attack failure, greater variety without cost to build (for example, there's no opportunity cost to your build for using W2C or incendiary rounds or a shock sledge - it's just part of the variety built into your weapon of choice), and greater base survivability because of the higher health and the lack of need to dump precious stat points into a "dead" stat like Will - you're putting points into Perception and not getting ambushed so much, or Strength and carrying more and wearing better armor, or Dexterity and getting better initiative.

I might also suggest that putting bars on 10 and 95 lets the underlying math be more favorable to the player.  You can smooth the probability distribution without having to account for extremes, and the player gets good feedback in when they've invested enough into their primary stat.

Plus, hey, misfire a few fireballs and kill yourself because the throw error was 4 tiles and you caught yourself in your own attack, and you'll look wistfully on that 1-in-20 miss from a bullet while you wait to reload

[Tamior]

Well, psions don't burst single-target damage like sledges or snipers. Sure, a crit Cryo Orb is sweet but you won't see a psion landing a 7k Psionic Execute crit on someone.  And even with 16 Will, the spammable psi attacks do roughly single-shot gun damage (and cost more AP, too; especially if you aren't using Tranquility).  So that part is sort of apples and oranges; psi is just different.

I'm pretty sure we both know that psionics are absolutely NOT lacking in raw damage per turn compared to other weapons. So I don't see why other weapons should all have an irremovable accuracy cap. Having to-hit chance in the first place is difference enough: why CAP it at 95%? Just to make everything else always inherently inferior to psionic in terms of reliability?

Of course, all told, psi is really very strong, but that's not to do with hit chances so much as an excessive synergy in psi abilities that other attack mechanics can't match, plus the incomparable OP-ness of Premeditation and LoC.  Though you could of course just let that sniper pick up Temporal Manipulation, ambush snipe or aimed shot crit, Entropic Recurrence, and skedaddle - nothing's coming back from that precipice.

Ok, so why exactly then weapons need an accuracy CAP? To clarify: I'm perfectly ok with them having to-hit chance in general. I just don't understand why a sniper shot form stealth should be CAPPED at 95% hit-chance when nothing is preventing the sniper from taking all the time in the world to line the shot.

I've played most every high-level build possible in UnderRail (which is an embarrassing admission to how many hours I've put into this game) and the miss chance doesn't feel unfair to me.  The miss chance for normal weapons is part of what differentiates characters.  Normal weapons have a greater risk management requirement because of that miss chance, but pay off in higher single-target damage, higher frequency of attack, lower cost for individual attack failure, greater variety without cost to build (for example, there's no opportunity cost to your build for using W2C or incendiary rounds or a shock sledge - it's just part of the variety built into your weapon of choice), and greater base survivability because of the higher health and the lack of need to dump precious stat points into a "dead" stat like Will - you're putting points into Perception and not getting ambushed so much, or Strength and carrying more and wearing better armor, or Dexterity and getting better initiative.

Again, I agree with all that, but why exactly there needs to be a CAP on accuracy? Why can't we just have a hit-chance in general, and if it goes to 100%, so be?
Or, at the very least, why should ALL weapons have a cap?  I can see why an acid pistol might be intrinsically somewhat inaccurate, by why on earth a sniper rifle misses 5% of the time when shot from essentially perfect position?!

I might also suggest that putting bars on 10 and 95 lets the underlying math be more favorable to the player.  You can smooth the probability distribution without having to account for extremes, and the player gets good feedback in when they've invested enough into their primary stat.

Any irrevocable randomness always effects most negatively the party that take take the most "rolls".  And that is, by far, the player. So if anything, it's the opposite: this is much less favorable to the player than not having a cap.

Plus, hey, misfire a few fireballs and kill yourself because the throw error was 4 tiles and you caught yourself in your own attack, and you'll look wistfully on that 1-in-20 miss from a bullet while you wait to reload

I'm all FOR keeping an intrinsic miss chance on thrown weapon and similar psionics.

[Tamior]

For Underrail specifically, the accuracy caps could vary depending on weapon type or even weapon model to further differentiate the weapons. Shotguns kinda do this, but more variety wouldn't hurt. Something like sniper rifle max accuracy going all the way to 100% depending on their base AP cost (50 AP = 100%, 25 AP = 95%), SMGs having 90% cap to make them distinct from assault rifles which should have more accurate single shots.

Yea, that's more or less what I'm thinking.
I guess cap should also be removed or lowered when you are taking a shot from stealth when not in combat.

To be honest, I feel 95% cap is just cargo cult design. Imitating d20 just because.

On a completely unrelated note, I'm pretty sure there is not a single d20-based CRPG with psionics in it on the market, even though psionics are part of SRD. Coincidence? I think not!

[bati]

I always thought this was loosely based on statistics and confidence interval.

[TheAverageGortsby]

Again, I agree with all that, but why exactly there needs to be a CAP on accuracy?

Either you didn't read that paragraph or you're ignoring what it says, because I answered that question in the bit you quoted.  It's the differentiator.

Normal attacks have to manage risk, because their attacks can miss.  Thus you need to have "one more trick" ready when you take your shot because you might miss.  That's the risk management.

Psi has to manage a resource, because the psi pool can empty quite quickly and your "reload" is on a cooldown.  So you need to ration your consumption or be ready to manage actionless turns while your pool refills.  That's the resource management.

That distinguishes the play types.  If your character doesn't have to manage something, then the gameplay loses a lot of complexity.  If it were difficult for non-psi to beat the game on Dominating, I'd be less sympathetic to the miss chance but UR is mechanically easy enough that almost any build played well can win; and because it's not based on random maps and spawns like many Roguelikes, the variety has to come from how you approach the problems (encounters) instead of what/where the problems are.  Distinguishing the major combat solution types is a big part of why there's so much variety and replay potential.  Most of the combat options are for the old-school gamer used to and fond of chance-based outcomes.  Psi exists for the player who prefers deterministic outcomes.

[Styg]

Because the game avoids determinism in combat. You may not like this design, but it is how the game is and will not change.

One thing I'm considering regarding the cap is to have it be influenced by optimal range, so you might have potentially higher cap inside optimal range for some weapons and potentially very low cap beyond optimal for others which would make the weapons even more distinct.

[Tamior]

Again, I agree with all that, but why exactly there needs to be a CAP on accuracy?

Either you didn't read that paragraph or you're ignoring what it says, because I answered that question in the bit you quoted.  It's the differentiator.

Normal attacks have to manage risk, because their attacks can miss.  Thus you need to have "one more trick" ready when you take your shot because you might miss.  That's the risk management.

Normal attacks would have to-hit chance even if there was no cap. That's already a substantial difference. Accuracy need not be hard-capped to be a difference.
Your point seems to be, as far as understand,  that without an accuracy cap you can "negate" this difference by having high enough effective skill, and that such "negative/difference" should be irrevocable. Ok, sure, but what is the irrevocable negative of psionics?

Psi has to manage a resource, because the psi pool can empty quite quickly and your "reload" is on a cooldown.  So you need to ration your consumption or be ready to manage actionless turns while your pool refills.  That's the resource management.

With enough psi cost lowering stuff and enough psi boosters and with fast metabolism you can pretty much never run out of psi points, so this negative can, in fact, be lowered effectively into non-existence.
With minimal planning this "negative" never even comes into play in majority of fights (everything dies before you actually run of of psi).
On top of that, weapons ALSO require ammo you need to actually BUY. Having to constantly spend money to even use your weapon is another (second) irrevocable negative of normal weapons. So what's psionic's second irrevocable negative?

That distinguishes the play types.  If your character doesn't have to manage something, then the gameplay loses a lot of complexity.  If it were difficult for non-psi to beat the game on Dominating, I'd be less sympathetic to the miss chance but UR is mechanically easy enough that almost any build played well can win; and because it's not based on random maps and spawns like many Roguelikes, the variety has to come from how you approach the problems (encounters) instead of what/where the problems are.  Distinguishing the major combat solution types is a big part of why there's so much variety and replay potential.  Most of the combat options are for the old-school gamer used to and fond of chance-based outcomes.  Psi exists for the player who prefers deterministic outcomes.

The problem is, if a player is OK with reloading saves, 95% cap is pretty much doing nothing.
If the player is NOT ok with reloading, psionics become essentially the only way to reliably finish the game on DOMINATING.
So this "difference" is having either no effect or HUGE effect. And the effect is also random.

Again, I'd be ok with SOME weapons having accuracy cap under SOME circumstances.  But sniper rifle missing 5% of the time when shot from stealth on an unsuspecting target is straight up ridiculous.

[Tamior]

Because the game avoids determinism in combat. You may not like this design, but it is how the game is and will not change.

Except psionics is actually 100% deterministic in it's ability to hit targets. Is psionics supposed to be intrinsically an easy mode or something..?

P.S. Just to clarify: you can absolutely finish the game with a pure psion while doing effectively all of the combat content and yet never ever using a single non-auto-hit attack.

P.P.S.

One thing I'm considering regarding the cap is to have it be influenced by optimal range, so you might have potentially higher cap inside optimal range for some weapons and potentially very low cap beyond optimal for others which would make the weapons even more distinct.

Now this sounds much, much better than flat 95% cap, especially if there would be no cap for the first shot taken with high precision weapon in an optimal range from stealth on an unsuspecting target.

[Quidam Craft]

Maybe psionic is kinda an easy choice, if I remember correctly in the begining of the game, Pasquale, SGS doctor if you refuse to take the pill to have psy empathy have a line like "it's your choice to make your life harder"

Maybe someone know exaxtly what he said at that time.

Still, I, think that you can have very very strong character even with that 5% chance to miss, and it does not affect that much the game.

Plus, some no psy mechanics are also 100 chance to hit like quick tinkering and traps in general, or grenades if you throw them at your feet (flashbangs with shaded visor, incendary Grenade with proper fire protection, caltrops with surestep, etc), or even taser.

And actually not all psi abilities have a 100% chance to hit, enemies might resist the effect like fear or stuns.

So, it's not even true to say that all psi abilities have always 100% chance to hit, and all other attacks and abilities have a 95% chance to hit.

The game is actually more complex than that.

[Tamior]

Still, I, think that you can have very very strong character even with that 5% chance to miss, and it does not affect that much the game.

Depends on your "reloads policy", really. Missing what would otherwise be an initial kill-shot might very well be a game-over for a sniper.

Plus, some no psy mechanics are also 100 chance to hit like quick tinkering and traps in general, or grenades if you throw them at your feet (flashbangs with shaded visor, incendary Grenade with proper fire protection, caltrops with surestep, etc), or even taser.

That's pretty ironic given that an enemy failing to trigger a bear trap (by randomly sidestepping it) sounds like something much more likely to happen than a sniper failing a perfectly lined shot.

And actually not all psi abilities have a 100% chance to hit, enemies might resist the effect like fear or stuns.

So, it's not even true to say that all psi abilities have always 100% chance to hit, and all other attacks and abilities have a 95% chance to hit.

The game is actually more complex than that.

No psionic attack (except for fireball and cryoball, that are basically psionic grenades) has a accuracy CAP as far as I know. Sure, you can fail to effect a target (if the target has high resolve and you have low psi skill), but your success chance for that is not capped at 95% (again, afaik).

On the other hand, no "normal" weapon (no projectile weapon at least) lacks the 95% accuracy cap.

So it's reasonably accurate to say that normal weapons are capped while pretty much no psi ability is.

[Quidam Craft]

My point was, that maybe your affirmation should be a bit more nuanced.

And, concerning reloads, even as a psy character reload will happen, and with 25% health less, well it might happen a bit more as well.

Concerning bear trap, enemies tries to avoid them if there is another valid path and they actually detect the trap. So, Yes they do as you say.

But if I understand your point, it's mainly about a sniper build ? Well not much psi build can one tap most enemies (including end boss). So I think things are balanced enough, and with a 100% accuracy on first shot, would it remain balanced ? I'm not so sure

[Tamior]

My point was, that maybe your affirmation should be a bit more nuanced.

And, concerning reloads, even as a psy character reload will happen, and with 25% health less, well it might happen a bit more as well.

Concerning bear trap, enemies tries to avoid them if there is another valid path and they actually detect the trap. So, Yes they do as you say.

But if I understand your point, it's mainly about a sniper build ? Well not much psi build can one tap most enemies (including end boss). So I think things are balanced enough, and with a 100% accuracy on first shot, would it remain balanced ? I'm not so sure

A bit more nuanced it might be, but those nuances don't really change the big picture.

I've done runs with stealth psion on dominating with 0 reloads all the way to DC.
So it's quite doable.

Also, psion can alpha down pretty much anything a sniper can: implosion doubled via proxy + telekinetic punch doubled via force user and quadrupled via proxy.

[Tamior]

Sure, you can fail to effect a target (if the target has high resolve and you have low psi skill), but your success chance for that is not capped at 95% (again, afaik).

The save chances for resolve/fortitude are capped between 5-75% so yes, success chance is capped at 95%. Relative to defense skill, about 135% attack skill minimizes the save chance and 35% maximizes it. Ultimately this means that typical player psi characters with their 10+ Will rarely have to worry about enemy resolve (a bit more about fortitude) but they're nowhere as important as managing your hit chances on weapon-based builds.

Huh. I guess I never really noticed the cap because you can follow any failed ability with cryostasis that I've never seen fail.

[Bruno]

Is it possible to save the stun from electrokinesis (excluding thick skull)?