Item degrading gamebreaking

[Blyr]

Item degradation has made the early gamr ridiculously tedious, to the point of almost being broken.

Nerfs in drops means you cant craft items to sell for ammo early on, which is an issue when youre using the 5mm hawker. Items degrading at 2pts per shot means your 5mm hawker (135 durability) will be broken after the first few packs of rats youre forced to fight.

I was fine with item degrading in theory, but 2pts per shot is ridiculously high for the low durabikity the items have. 1 pt every 2 shots would be much more acceptable, but now its a lot harder to make money and essentials are stupidly expensive.

[posfan12]

I didn't know the game had an item damage feature. I guess I will have to watch out!

[Blyr]

I disagree.


At 135 durability and degration of 2/shot, you can still kill 33 rathounds with the starter pistol alone before needing to repair it. But by that point, you've likely already found more guns. (From the stalkers in the underpass north of SGS station platform for example, if you've had no luck with loot.)

You also get a free crossbow and some PSI abilities at the start, all of which can be useful regardless of your character's skllset. Don't be afraid to use all the tools you have at your disposal, they can be really helpful at the start!

With max gun skill, and 7 perception, it takes me 3-4 shots per rat to kill one... I managed about 8 before my gun to 35% durability, and then at that point the accuracy dropped significantly so I ended up breaking my gun trying to kill the final rat (and wasted a good amount of ammo)

I did eventually find a new gun, and I found the static leather armor blue print so I could make armor and buy a repair kit + ammo, but that took everything I had.

I like to play the first run how a "typical user" would play the game, so little to no psi abilities little stealth, and most likely guns over anything. Also the crossbow I found was at 35/205 durability and the knife he had was at 17/205.. with 0 crossbow skill it's virtually unusable.. you're better off using your fists (which I did just to make my 6th trip back to HQ to buy 10 more rounds of 5mm ammo so I could finish killing the rats.)

If the game is "meant" to be played with heavy psi use and multiple weapon skills then I guess it's the way it's supposed to be, but when your primary weapon has very little to no durability it gives you a bad impression of the game. I'm not even saying to remove it completely, just tone down the rate of degrading or buff the durability of the 5mm hawker.. (or alternatively give the player a few free repair kits) if the game has been balanced around 2dmg per shot

[DarkWan]

I don't know exactly the math behind the item degration mechanic, but I had to restart my first 0.1.7.0 game due to not being able to afford to repair the starting gun.
I used both the starting gun and crossbow to kill the rats, and went back to buy lockpicks, haxxor and ammo for the second half of the power station quest.
When I got back to the monsters I noticed every shot was lowering my aim, all the way down to 20%, which makes it harder and harder (more bullets and faster degration).
After figuring out it was the low durability, I went back to buy a repair kit only to find it cost 950 (have mercantile) which I couldn't afford. Since both my gun and crossbow was in bad shape they were worth a lot less. So I couldn't even sell one of them to make a repair.
I did "forgot" I could use PSI, so I restarted instead.
On the second playthrough, I used my bare hands to finish of the rats whenever I could, to save bullets/repair cost. Getting back health was free...
Anyway I find the basic repairkit to be too expensive, a smaller and cheaper repairkit (about half effect and cost) would be better.

Putting a repair/maintainance (the gun) quest following up the shooting range quest would make players mindful of a repair mechanic ingame.

After my first 0.1.7.0 completion I find the item value/durability be off.
Many ranged weapons was worth far more after repairation, so I "had" to do repairs before selling which was a bit tideous and silly.

Armor durability is far stronger than weapon durability (guns atleast) . I have only done one armor repair during the whole game, because it was looted with low durability.
For the ranged weapon loot, I rather find slightly higher durability on them and less ammo, that way I can atleast try it out or use it for a bit on the field before returning.

I could as well put my thoughts on the grenades here.
I don't like how they work now. Usually when I need to use a grenade it will be tossed at the beginning of a battle. If it misses I just reload...
I rather they hit the area targeted like before, but it's effect depends on your throwingskill vs enemy dodge/evade and range from the center. (I can't remember an enemy evaded a grenade before). Of course you can still reload until every enemy is hit... but I find it less likely if the damage scales in a appropiate way.
The ones near the center of the explosion having harder to evade, and the damage could range from full, partial to none.
If your throwing is better than enemy evade/dodge, there is a good chance to hit the ones at the edge with full damage also. If you are are bad, then even those at the center only take partial damage.

[Eliasfrost]

I know what you mean, having bad trap detection is a no-go when you enter the old junkyard, two mine explosion and your items degrade to almost unusable (which is realistic but... njeah...), I had to go on like 5 trips back just to repair my stuff.

[LazyMonk]

I have only made 2 characters so far but i haven't found the the whole item durability to be game-breaking.

My first character (stealth+knives+traps) had no economical troubles at all.
My sledgehammer in metal armor guy had rough start, mostly because a sledgehammer is an expensive weapon for a level 1/2 character.
I would only ask for items to have a bigger durability because i have to repair my sledgehammer between every fight at Depot A.

[joejoefine]

It is difficult, it definitely is. You have to be judicious with your shots and use aimed shot a lot, but even then the weapons degrade fast and repair kits are expensive. I don't know how hard it would be to buy them if I didn't decide to maximize my barter skill with every level; and I'm not sure how easy they are to make.  You have to find replacement guns, basically, and hope you find enough ammo as well, or get ready to fight enemies with bare fists and constantly go back to base to heal. Also using your psi abilities, I don't understand how people can do that. Psi boosters are expensive too...unless they suggest getting the shroomhead perk and constantly going back to those few places that have mindshrooms and waiting?

Basically having a maxed barter skill is a must. I think I'm going to do what one person did and repair a really good weapon with a repair kit and see if I can't get more money back. Most likely if I can this is a glitch which will be fixed by Styg. But in return I hope he lowers the durability loss, because although it is manageable if you are very judicious, I feel like this isn't the type of challenge the game should be presenting. It should revolve more around the tactics of combat, not maintaining weaponry.

Also he says that there is *still* a problem in the late game with characters having access to too much loot, so his whole maintenance idea, which was meant to solve this problem, apparently still doesn't work. All that you're doing is creating a tedious exercise for characters who are near the mid-to-late stages of the game to have to buy weapon/armor repair kits (if the latter are even necessary), and a frustrating exercise for beginner players who have to play in a really lame way using fists when their guns break as all the weapons they find off enemies are useless. It does encourage some ingenuity in shooting rathounds through fences and using explosive barrels well, but overall your options are somewhat limited. Psi doesn't regenerate and I am not spending tons of cash to buy one psi booster that will allow me to do far less damage than a gun can long-term.

I wouldn't say its gamebreaking, it is manageable, but certainly something that needs to be modified significantly. I would prefer it be removed entirely, and that Styg finds a more enjoyable solution to his problem; because the whole gameplay mechanic is just irritating and not fun to deal with, especially with the rates of degradation as they are (although it is challenging - but again I'd prefer a different type of challenge). I feel like all he really has to do is fiddle with the prices of items so that lower-tier items are accessible to a certain level-range, while higher tier items cost proportionately more to what the player is able to find in dungeon areas.

[Styg]

I'll look further into this and probably tweak degradation rate a bit in the next patch. It wasn't meant to be as hard as you guys report it is to keep your weapon in shape.

The primary goal of this mechanic is to make the most weapons you find heavily degraded so you couldn't sell them for a fortune, while still allowing you to keep and repairs the ones you want to use.

[DarkWan]

I finished my second playthrough without mercantile, lockpicking or hacking.
Money is only a problem before you get to the GMS compound, and once you get to the Junktown its no longer an issue.

The differences are, in the beginning the mobs (rathounds) doesn't drop any significant valuable loot you want to sell (saving up all crafting mats). Usually the loot doesn't even cover the bullets + repair cost. 12 quality leather crafted to an armor sells for about 200 credits, each 5mm bullet cost 35, and it rarly drops any leather. For a gunner you have to rely on quest rewards and lucky finds (and PSI + Shroomhead feat).
The Shroomhead feats is too good, it has problably saved me more money than the mercantile skill (if I bought PSI boosters). It's not that inconvenient if you know where you are going to have lots of fights, just leave them there so you can return to recharge.

Once you're going to the GMS compound you start fighting human enemies with lots of drops. Even if the durability is low, when you have been fighting a lot of them you are starting to amass a wealth. And when it's time to go to the Junkyard you are given 500 stygian coins and going to fight even more profitable humans.

About repairing before selling, you can earn a lot of money from it, if you know the true value. Any modified gun is usually worth more than double the repair cost. When you find a damaged laser pistol (or plasma) they sell for around 20k, so even if you need 3 electronic kits to fully repair them you still earn a lot by doing it.

In my previous playthrough I didn't pay much attention on my wealth, I just hoarded items... anyway this playthrough I ended up with 4300 stygian coins.
What I want to say is the economy is still too easy. It's only tedious hard in the beginning and I think that might set new players to wrong mindset, to be very conservative with money.

I think it would be better to have other money sink, like faction support, charging for feats or extra skillpoints.

[LazyMonk]

I think it would be better to have other money sink, like faction support, charging for feats or extra skillpoints.

I like these ideas, a lot.

And i have to agree with DarkWan when he says that its only a issue at the begging.
After the GMS compound things start to go smoother.

I'am going to do a gunner without any other weapon skills and psy powers and see how it goes.

Edit: Okay i just did the outposts quest with just the 5mm pistol and it was a breeze. I was lucky and got a second
5mm pistol in one of the outposts so i didn't had to repair even once. If finding another pistol makes a big difference perhaps we could start with a free Mechanical Repair Kit in one of our room lockers.

I am going to do the 'hopper round up' before i hit the GMS compound, but so far things are going easier than with my Sledgehammer+Psychokinesis guy. I have 1008 SGS credits right now. More than enough for plenty of repair kits.

[Clawdius_Talonious]

It would be nice if we could make our own mechanical repair kits with a reasonably high mechanical skill as well, a few basic materials could be seeded into the game for that purpose, hopper grease, soft cloth, that sort of thing. Those materials wouldn't be terribly abundant, so you wouldn't just be able to farm materials to create kits and have as much excess money as before degradation was implemented. Failing that, it might be nice if a certain level of the relevant crafting skill allowed you to practice upkeep on a weapon that was at a certain level of degradation. For example if your item had degraded fewer points than you had in the associated skill you could simply top it off yourself without needing a repair kit, saving those for more extensive damage.

Of course, fast item degradation has never been very logical to me. I could smash a thousand meatbags a day with a sledgehammer, and as long as I cleaned it off afterwards it would be no worse for wear. Guns are a little more maintenance oriented, but even still if you keep them clean and oiled there's no reason you shouldn't be able to fire several thousand rounds through a gun without it requiring extensive repairs. Dead Island might have been a fun game, but I never really could get into it because if the strange notion they had that a lead pipe or baseball bat could only survive a dozen or so impacts with flesh. Yeah, it's a zombie, but it's not made of stone. And if it was, I am quite certain I would significantly injure myself beating a lead pipe against stone long before the pipe was ineffective as a bludgeon.

I agree that it sounds like starting the player off with a mechanical repair kit would be useful. Hopefully there is a way to make the guns found in the wild require repairs without requiring the player to constantly stop and buy kits to repair items they use. Personally I think that "value added" money sinks are a more entertaining way to control the economy than a need for constant repair. I would have loved to have seen stacks of 999, or perhaps even multiple stacks of 999 Stygians being able to be forged into a Supersteel crafting material, since the implication in the description is that they are worth money because they are a very valuable metal.

[LazyMonk]

It would be nice if we could make our own mechanical repair kits with a reasonably high mechanical skill as well, a few basic materials could be seeded into the game for that purpose, hopper grease, soft cloth, that sort of thing.

I have good news for you then. You can craft your own mechanical/electronic repair kits if you have at least 20 metal/electronic scraps and some points on mechanic skill. You can also recycle items. If you find a damaged gun you can turn it into some nice mechanical scraps.

[Vazhi]

A month later this still seems to be a huge issue for melee character trying to get through outpost quest with combat knife. Needs more work.

[UnLimiTeD]

If you read the Development logs, you will find that it will be fixed in the next version.
Obviously, when no patch has happened yet, nothing will be fixed.

[Infiltrator]

Patch is delaying my playthrough, the degradation has practically degraded the gameplay too much for me