tacvest x3 DT for other projectiles

[harperfan7]

Wouldn't it make sense if tacvests blocked frag shrapnel, crossbow bolts, throwing knives, burrower spines and similar mechanical projectiles like they do with bullets?  Riot vests too, at x2.

[Tygrende]

It would realistically, but I don't think Styg wants tactical vests to offer such a broad range of protection. They are already pretty good against shrapnel though, seeing as the damage is usually low enough to be heavily reduced or even completly negated even with base DT. That said, there's still the explosion itself.

[Tygrende]

Nah. Ballistic panels are designed to stop bullets.

They are, but hard armor (so level III and IV) will still stop a crossbow bolt every time, guranteed. Soft armor (IIIA and below) is only rated for various handgun rounds, while intermediate and rifle rounds are in an entire different realm of velocity with entirely different characteristics. They go through IIIA like butter.

In Underrail, I suppose the ceramic plate would be the equivalent of level III and IV. But even with the ceramic plate, tac vests are anything but crossbow-proof. Adding a bonus multiplier to ceramic plates against crossbow bolts would certainly be realistic, other considerations aside.

[Tygrende]

But they're definitely not class IV, nothing in Underrail stops AP rifle rounds.

Ah, armor level ratings are bit more complicated than that. They are neither progressive nor inclusive, as one would assume. They stop what they are rated at, anything else is a big maybe. Level IV is usually worn not because it can stop .30-06 AP, but because sufficently hot loads of the common 5.56 can actually go through level III, despite the fact that it's rated for the more powerful (but generally slower) 7.62x51. Velocity is very important when it comes to armor penetration, that and sectional density.

Which would actually make an interesting mechanic for tac-vests! Something like, say, reduce the armor penetration percentage of W2C rounds by the armor's damage threshold. So a high-end anti-rifle vest (40 DT) could reduce W2C armor penetration from 65% to 25%. Just to make W2C slightly less of an universal solution.

That could be interesting. I agree that W2C pretty much trivializes armor at this point. Then again, it is quite easy to run out of, especially on burst builds and/or if you can't craft them yet or at all.

[harperfan7]

The highest possible DT for a tacvest in the base game is 45, which is 135 vs bullets or 47 vs W2C.  What is the upper range of top-end rifles?  That doesn't matter, does it?  Weapon skill raises it even more.  Another thing to consider is that the tacvest doesnt cover your whole body, so the damage you take could just be you getting shot somewhere else; it's all an abstraction.

[Hazard]

Something like, say, reduce the armor penetration percentage of W2C rounds by the armor's damage threshold. So a high-end anti-rifle vest (40 DT) could reduce W2C armor penetration from 65% to 25%. Just to make W2C slightly less of an universal solution.

Wouldn't that mostly be a burst fire nerf, and do you really think burst fire builds need to be weakened even further? And sniper rifles wouldn't even notice if the enemy's DT was 90 instead of 40.

[Hazard]

In any case, the idea was more about ammo than armor. The ammo types aren't playing out quite like Styg intended. Special ammo is generally overshadowed by craftable W2C/JHP, and the main reason to ever use special bullets is not having the W2C blueprint yet.

You'd have to nerf W2C as well as JHP to the ground before the weaker special ammo types start to look good. They need significant boosts, though you're certainly well aware of that.

Has Styg ever told you why he hasn't done anything to tweak special ammo? It seems like just increasing a few numbers would go a long way towards fixing the problem... unless he intends to overhaul the whole system at some point. 

[TheAverageGortsby]

You'd have to nerf W2C as well as JHP to the ground before the weaker special ammo types start to look good. They need significant boosts, though you're certainly well aware of that.

For mass use, sure, but special ammo is already situationally quite useful.

Burning folk never gets old. It's OK to do less damage (especially on DOMINATING, fighting bosses which you aren't likely to one-shot/one-burst anyway) when the result is likely to be a panicked enemy - a 9-round long burst is about 98% likely to set the target on fire, and I like those odds.  The micro-shrapnel ammo makes for a great crit opener, putting a big debuff on an enemy - Ancient Rathounds are a favorite of mine for that since they're so very resistant to other useful CC abilities.  And contaminated ammo is nice for the stacking +damage debuff, especially on more resistant enemies; I like tagging Balor with a round while he's stuck in a trap or stunned, then going to town with the W2C.

Sure, for general use, the general use ammo is absolutely better.  But I think there are enough special cases that special ammo is still worth crafting and carrying a couple magazines' worth.

[Hazard]

For mass use, sure, but special ammo is already situationally quite useful.

Burning folk never gets old. It's OK to do less damage (especially on DOMINATING, fighting bosses which you aren't likely to one-shot/one-burst anyway) when the result is likely to be a panicked enemy - a 9-round long burst is about 98% likely to set the target on fire, and I like those odds.  The micro-shrapnel ammo makes for a great crit opener, putting a big debuff on an enemy - Ancient Rathounds are a favorite of mine for that since they're so very resistant to other useful CC abilities.  And contaminated ammo is nice for the stacking +damage debuff, especially on more resistant enemies; I like tagging Balor with a round while he's stuck in a trap or stunned, then going to town with the W2C.

Sure, for general use, the general use ammo is absolutely better.  But I think there are enough special cases that special ammo is still worth crafting and carrying a couple magazines' worth.

Incendiary ammo works if you're burst firing, for anything else the odds of setting a target, let alone a specific target, on fire are very unreliable.

Micro-shrapnel would be great for every weapon type if it was 50% extra damage 100% of the time, though it's fairly okay as it is, too. It's biggest problem is that it doesn't do much against targets with very high mechanical DR/DT. What do you mean by debuff, though? It's just extra damage over 3 turns, it doesn't debuff or control the target in any way.

I fully agree, contaminated ammo is good.

Explosive ammo is... okay, I guess? The Tommy Gun can certainly be hilarious if you hit something with an explosive burst.

Shock and acid rounds are kinda meh. Unconditional extra damage is never bad, but the numbers are not exactly mind-blowing, either. They would probably be awesome if the damage benefited at least a little from the skill multiplier, though.

[harperfan7]

Acid is good against bladelings.  I suspect it might be good against shroomlings but I haven't tried. 

One thing that would "fix" special ammo is to allow jhp and w2c versions of them, but that doesnt actually make any sense.  Shock 5mm would be cool if they stunned enemies on a crit, but as it is, even against robots I think w2c is better unless their DT is just SO HIGH, but then why use 5mm in the first place?  Contaminated seems like it's good for sniping some zoner in a chokepoint where other enemies have to move through to get to you.  I know that elemental damage on crossbow bolts is multiplied on a crit, so maybe with a critical power anatomical chimera (or other high crit gun), they might be pretty good?

It bothers me that JHP incurs a penalty vs DR/DT and gets a boost after, but w2c penetrates and does the same damage after; shouldn't w2c have less base damage?  Like against heavily armored enemies (anti-rifle tacvests, robots, full metal armor, bladelings), you could net more damage, but otherwise they're weaker. 

[TheAverageGortsby]

It bothers me that JHP incurs a penalty vs DR/DT and gets a boost after, but w2c penetrates and does the same damage after; shouldn't w2c have less base damage?  Like against heavily armored enemies (anti-rifle tacvests, robots, full metal armor, bladelings), you could net more damage, but otherwise they're weaker.

From a realism perspective (which I dislike), W2C shouldn't do less damage than a normal bullet.  Against soft tissue, FMJ or AP is going to make more or less the same wound channel; the bullet will not deform a whole lot, so the bullet damage is going to be mostly the same.  Hollow point should make a larger wound channel.

From a game balance perspective, I think JHP and W2C are okay, because W2C requires the more expensive and less common tungsten plate to create, in addition to graphite.  That's a lot more cost for the same number of rounds.  And it's OK for JHP to fade out from frequent use to specialty use by late-game.  There are still plenty of enemies with very low DR/DT that you want to pick off quickly, all throughout the mid and late game.

[ciox]

Don't they already do this against burrower projectiles? Well, at least I think that's what caused 0 damage from burrower projectiles before, wearing an anti-rifle overcoat.

[harperfan7]

Don't they already do this against burrower projectiles? Well, at least I think that's what caused 0 damage from burrower projectiles before, wearing an anti-rifle overcoat.

No, they just do something like 20-25ish damage, and your tacvest probably had 25-30 DT.