A real Jack of All Trades, Master of None. Going Dominating.

[HulkOSaurus]

Hello! How's it going!

Long time no see... aah, who am I kidding, you guys probably don't remember/know me. It's ok

Anyways. Expedition is out, and I really like how Underrail has developed with all the new additions. Now, I understand that jack-of-alls don't perform well in Underrail, but it has been on my mind for a very long time - pretty much since I started playing. I beat the game on Dominating last year with a pure Heavy Armour/Constitution/AR Burst/Crafting character who took a grand total of 3 AR bursts to finish the last boss. Yep - it was that crazy. But that character is also quite boring. I want to try something different. I just played the game on Oddity with a mostly Psi/Melee/Throwing build, and I may have botched Expedition as I was lazy to return to one of the camp defenses which resulted in a lot of coffins. For the next character I'd prefer to play Classic XP. Not that I dislike Oddity. I think it's a great game mode - I just don't feel like collecting all those items again.

So here's a complete, still work-in-progress Jack-of-All-Master-of-None build. The idea here is to have combat flow and constant answers to threats present, rather than have one magnificent skill that decides combat in a single go.

Ideas/Feedback welcomed.

So here's the build at lvl 1:

http://underrail.info.tm/build/?AQYHAwQGCAYPDwAAAAAAAAAAAA8ADw8ADw8AAAAADybCgyvfvw

Here's she is at lvl 8:

http://underrail.info.tm/build/?CAYHAwQHCQYyGQAAHgAAAAAAGR4eHhQUMiMAHgAAGSbCgys7MBQq378

At lvl 12:

http://underrail.info.tm/build/?DAYHAwQHCgZGLQAAHgAAAAAAGTIyKCMeRi0AKAAAHibCgys7MBQqFk7fvw

At lvl 16:

http://underrail.info.tm/build/?EAYHAwQICgZaNwAAHgAAAAAAGUFBNzcyWjcAMgAAIybCgys7MBQqFk4hSd-_

Lvl 20:

http://underrail.info.tm/build/?EAYHAwQICgZaNwAAHgAAAAAAGUFBNzcyWjcAMgAAIybCgys7MBQqFk4hSd-_

Lvl 24:

http://underrail.info.tm/build/?GAYHAwYICgbCgm4AAB4AAAAAABlpaTdVWn1aADcAACMmwoMrOzAUKhZOIUlKPk_Ch9-_

I still don't know how liberally I can put points into crafting considering I've never used benches in my playthroughs. But I know those exist, and I may have to use them here. Also, before hitting Deep Caverns we could put some points into Stealth and use crafting to buff it up. I think crafting alone easily gives 60ish stealth. MKIV grenades are available with chemistry of 69, if memory serves, so those will help a lot, although I will have to take grenade accuracy into consideration. AR burst will be available, but the build will not have to rely too often on it. Specialization points will probably go into Trigger Happy/ Locust of Control, and Root Soda will be the preferred food of choice. Here's a combo the build will be able to do - Psycho-Temporal Contraction, Psi Booster, Precognition, Locust of Control, Rage, MK4 Frag, Caltrops, Flashbang, Force Field, move, pass turn, reduce cooldowns, Mk4 Frag, shoot.

[TheAverageGortsby]

It's a quick enough trek to level 12 that you might find things working a little better if you didn't really invest in crafting until around 12-16.  Getting some TM early on will cover up a lot of the weaknesses in that spread out build.  Also, with such a clearly crafting-heavy build, I might pull ten points each from Mechanics and Tailoring (if you plan to use Hypercerebrix while crafting top-tier gear at home) and 20 from Psychokinesis (because you're not going to have enough skill there to make it a significant damage-dealer anyway) and put them into Mercantile so you can hit all the thresholds for unlocking merchant inventory except Efreitor Hannah's second one (two points from out of throwing would get you there as well, with both Hypercerebrix and Under Pie).

Looks like a solid JoAT build either way, though.

[HulkOSaurus]

It's a quick enough trek to level 12 that you might find things working a little better if you didn't really invest in crafting until around 12-16.  Getting some TM early on will cover up a lot of the weaknesses in that spread out build.  Also, with such a clearly crafting-heavy build, I might pull ten points each from Mechanics and Tailoring (if you plan to use Hypercerebrix while crafting top-tier gear at home) and 20 from Psychokinesis (because you're not going to have enough skill there to make it a significant damage-dealer anyway) and put them into Mercantile so you can hit all the thresholds for unlocking merchant inventory except Efreitor Hannah's second one (two points from out of throwing would get you there as well, with both Hypercerebrix and Under Pie).

Looks like a solid JoAT build either way, though.

Hey!

Glad you approve of the general build.

Yes, I also think the build is a late game bloomer. Quite frankly, once you enhance all the various aspects it becomes a very hard hitter, and cc-able, as well. But making the journey there smoother is greatly preferred.

A few points:

1. I also thought that maybe there is a bit too much invested in Thought Control. Is going lower Thought Control an option - it is more of a general cc skill here than anything else? Does lower Thought Control reduce the chance of landing skills like Rage and Fear? I can't quite remember - it's been a while.

2. Reducing Psychokinesis/Throwing is an option. The double Implosion after Leper Poison Throwing Knives(can you make caltrops with that?) followed by a net and AR burst is still there, so Psychokinesis of 70 base is good, possibly lower Throwing.

3. Early crafting is a bit of an issue for me. I think the build needs MK Frag III for Depot A. Those together with four turns Force Field and cool-down reduction is what I am hoping will make it through. How much Chemistry/Mechanics you need for MKIII? Gosh, I really have forgotten quite a bit.

4. How much Mechanics/Electronics/Tailoring do you think will be needed in the end? At level 26 the build will take extra 2 Constitution, but before making it there it will need to craft some protection. Before raising Con it will rely on situational Tactical Vests - electric resistance for Coil Spiders, extra mechanical threshold vs bullets, ect., ect. Making a good Primary/Secondary AR, possibly a Shotgun(to try them out), as well as Focus Stims/Chems is on the menu, as well. It's good that you reminded me about the new drug that gives +2 Int. I remember seeing an imprint for it somewhere.

5. Having more Mercantile is always welcomed. Using Under Pie to unlock the higher stores is a very good trick. How much Mercantile would you need for that in the end, and how early, in your opinion should the build invest in it?

6. What do you mean by TM? I assume it's Time Manipulation, but I am bad, so I don't really know. Again, any way to make the build smoother is welcomed

Thanks!

[TheAverageGortsby]

1. Is going lower Thought Control an option - it is more of a general cc skill here than anything else? Does lower Thought Control reduce the chance of landing skills like Rage and Fear? I can't quite remember - it's been a while.

2. Reducing Psychokinesis/Throwing is an option.

3. How much Chemistry/Mechanics you need for MKIII? Gosh, I really have forgotten quite a bit.

4. How much Mechanics/Electronics/Tailoring do you think will be needed in the end?

5. Having more Mercantile is always welcomed. Using Under Pie to unlock the higher stores is a very good trick. How much Mercantile would you need for that in the end, and how early, in your opinion should the build invest in it?

6. What do you mean by TM? I assume it's Time Manipulation

1) Not really.  You play on DOMINATING, right? You're going to need to break enemy resolve, and I usually recommend an effective TC of 200 or so for that.  If you were playing 16 Will and multi-school psi, you could get there with 75 points in TC, but I think you need all of them to make sure you clear resolve.  If you plan to use it regularly, don't give the enemies any more chance to resist your TC abilities than you have to.
2)Yeah. Three Pointer isn't reliable even with a dedicated throwing build, so I don't like it much.  Personal bias aside, it can be tough to recommend it - it's only good with high Throwing, but it's not good enough to be the only reason you go deep into Throwing.  If all you want is to reliably place grenades, you can do that with 50-60 effective skill.
3)When in doubt, go to the wiki:  https://www.underrail.com/wiki/index.php?title=Blueprint:_Hand_Grenade
4&5) See above  (edit: if you want to go in 20 points really early for the SGS benefits, that makes sense - but if not, then don't bother going into Mercantile until you've cleared the Depot, unless you really want TiChrome before you go in, in which case you need a few dozen points to unlock Blaine's inventory so you get an RNG chance for him to have a bar in stock)
6) Yep, you're right.  Temporal Manipulation.  Getting that early will be a huge help for you.  The basic ability will get you safely through the Retake The Outposts quest; the LTI and psi slow will just be very useful in general, and once you've cleared the Depot you'll get some really, really nice abilities.  So try to pick up some TM early if you can - no point in getting any more crafting than you need, until you need it.

[HulkOSaurus]

1) Not really.  You play on DOMINATING, right? You're going to need to break enemy resolve, and I usually recommend an effective TC of 200 or so for that.  If you were playing 16 Will and multi-school psi, you could get there with 75 points in TC, but I think you need all of them to make sure you clear resolve.  If you plan to use it regularly, don't give the enemies any more chance to resist your TC abilities than you have to.
2)Yeah. Three Pointer isn't reliable even with a dedicated throwing build, so I don't like it much.  Personal bias aside, it can be tough to recommend it - it's only good with high Throwing, but it's not good enough to be the only reason you go deep into Throwing.  If all you want is to reliably place grenades, you can do that with 50-60 effective skill.
3)When in doubt, go to the wiki:  https://www.underrail.com/wiki/index.php?title=Blueprint:_Hand_Grenade
4&5) See above  (edit: if you want to go in 20 points really early for the SGS benefits, that makes sense - but if not, then don't bother going into Mercantile until you've cleared the Depot, unless you really want TiChrome before you go in, in which case you need a few dozen points to unlock Blaine's inventory so you get an RNG chance for him to have a bar in stock)
6) Yep, you're right.  Temporal Manipulation.  Getting that early will be a huge help for you.  The basic ability will get you safely through the Retake The Outposts quest; the LTI and psi slow will just be very useful in general, and once you've cleared the Depot you'll get some really, really nice abilities.  So try to pick up some TM early if you can - no point in getting any more crafting than you need, until you need it.

Yeah, that's correct - it will be DOMINATING, but it will be Classic XP. I just don't feel like searching for those things again . But that will make it easier to an extent.

Yes, I am not that sold on Three-Pointer. You can see a crit or two when you use it with frags, and it's generally helpful the more grenades you fling. All in all I think Pack Rathound might be a better option.

So I looked some of the stuff up and here's what I came up with:

lvl 1:
http://underrail.info.tm/build/?AQYHAwQGCAYPDwAAAAAAAAAACgoADwAKDw8AAAAADybCgyvfvw

lvl 2:
http://underrail.info.tm/build/?AgYHAwQGCAYUDwAAAAAAAAAACgoAFAAKFBQADwAAFCbCgys7378

lvl 4:
http://underrail.info.tm/build/?BAYHAwQHCAYeFAAAAAAAAAAAGQoAHgAKHhkAHgAAHibCgys7MN-_

lvl 6:
http://underrail.info.tm/build/?BgYHAwQHCAYoHgAACgAAAAAAGQoAKAAKKCMAKAAAKCbCgys7MBbfvw

lvl 8:
http://underrail.info.tm/build/?CAYHAwQHCQYyIwAAGQAAAAAAGQoAMgAKMi0AMgAAMibCgys7MBYU378 - this is where I will aim to do depot A. I believe it will be ok.

lvl 10:
http://underrail.info.tm/build/?CgYHAwQHCQY8LQAAHgAAAAAAGQ8PMgAPPDIANwAAPCbCgys7MBYUKt-_

lvl 12:
http://underrail.info.tm/build/?DAYHAwQHCgZGRgAAHgAAAAAAGQ8PMgUPRkYANwAARibCgys7MBYUKk7fvw

lvl 14:
http://underrail.info.tm/build/?DgYHAwQHCgZQRgAAHgAAAAAAGR4eMg8ZUEYANwAAUCbCgys7MBYUKk4h378

lvl 16:
http://underrail.info.tm/build/?EAYHAwQICgZaUAAAHgAAAAAAGSgoMhkjWkYANwAAWibCgys7MBYUKk4hSd-_

From that point on it's just maxing Thought Control and Guns, and raising Crafting, Throwing and Stealth so that there is some juice left for Deep Caverns .

Specialization points will be applied on Trigger Happy and Locus of Control Cooldown by taking turns.

It seems I can pull 14 points from Mercantile, though, and use those for Crafting. Intelligence chems and Underpie will make sure that all high tier shops are open.

[TheAverageGortsby]

Specialization points will be applied on Trigger Happy and Locus of Control Cooldown by taking turns.

My first character in Expedition specced into LoC cooldown, and I won't do it again.  The reason is that even with 5/5 and using LTI on cooldown, you're going to need seven turns between LoCs.  It's actually kind of difficult to drag a fight out that long unless you're in the arena (in which case there aren't enough targets to justify LoC) or fearbouncing entire Rathound packs (in which case, they're rathounds, and don't really require LoC).  Even the Balor fight at a reasonable character level only really lasts 5-6 turns.  So I found that unless I really went out of my way to prolong fights, I wasn't getting use out of those specialization points.  Still, if you go that route, I'd be interested about your feedback on it to hear if it was worth it for you.

You should really find 2 points for Premeditation cooldown spec.  That you will benefit from, almost every single fight.

[HulkOSaurus]

Specialization points will be applied on Trigger Happy and Locus of Control Cooldown by taking turns.

My first character in Expedition specced into LoC cooldown, and I won't do it again.  The reason is that even with 5/5 and using LTI on cooldown, you're going to need seven turns between LoCs.  It's actually kind of difficult to drag a fight out that long unless you're in the arena (in which case there aren't enough targets to justify LoC) or fearbouncing entire Rathound packs (in which case, they're rathounds, and don't really require LoC).  Even the Balor fight at a reasonable character level only really lasts 5-6 turns.  So I found that unless I really went out of my way to prolong fights, I wasn't getting use out of those specialization points.  Still, if you go that route, I'd be interested about your feedback on it to hear if it was worth it for you.

You should really find 2 points for Premeditation cooldown spec.  That you will benefit from, almost every single fight.

My first Expedition Character(the one I botched the run with) - a Psi all-rounder with Throwing, Quick Tinkering and Melee had no problems doing exactly that. Enemies spend 4 turns in Rage, and you spend 4 turns behind force wall. In addition there are flashbangs, the psi trap, nets, Quick Tinkering traps, caltrops, various other psi cc, so in short getting two Locus of Control per battle, provided something survives the first combo, is easy. The Lunatics at the mall is one example. On the other hand I don't see a point in going Premediation cooldown because by the time I need it for Locus of Control/Rage combo it will be down anyways. The Premediation/Locus of Control/Rage setup pretty much shuts them down and makes even unaffected enemies fight the berserking ones. You may have to pay attention to something that might attack you, but Thought Control Psi builds have so much single target cc so you won't be short on options. The initial combo ensures that you have the Psi points for that. 

BTW, I started the build already . I spent the initial cash for Hand Grenade imprint and crafted five Frags. That was quick 5 outposts. I took Grenadier at 4 to make the Newton beetles easy. The drones at the GMS were a bit problematic, but only because I was too lazy to go back and get some EMPs or wait for MKII Frags. Already passed Depot A and it's looking good. At the Depot I could already loop a doorway with Quick Tinkering traps, nets, four turns Force Fields and the MKIII Frags and cooldown reductions were cleaning house. Your feedback about Temporal Manipulation was invaluable as it really helped against robots and the turret. Particularly slowing down the Plasma Sentry.

[TheAverageGortsby]

so in short getting two Locus of Control per battle, provided something survives the first combo, is easy.

That was always the difficulty for me - nothing ever survived the Enrage 

On the other hand I don't see a point in going Premediation cooldown because by the time I need it for Locus of Control/Rage combo it will be down anyways.

TC abilities are generally high cost and short range.  Premeditation fixes both of those things.  Plus TM abilities tend to be high-cost and near-instant so you can end up dumping a lot of psi points in a turn; Premeditation help with that too.  You'll get by without Premeditation spec, same as you'd get by without LoC spec.  If you really don't think you'd use it, no harm - but me, I use Premeditation on cooldown, every cooldown, every fight, every time.  Even if all I've got for it is Premed + LTI, I'm hitting it on cooldown.  Seems far more useful than 2 more points of Initiative, but of course it would come down to play style.

[HulkOSaurus]

so in short getting two Locus of Control per battle, provided something survives the first combo, is easy.

That was always the difficulty for me - nothing ever survived the Enrage 

On the other hand I don't see a point in going Premediation cooldown because by the time I need it for Locus of Control/Rage combo it will be down anyways.

TC abilities are generally high cost and short range.  Premeditation fixes both of those things.  Plus TM abilities tend to be high-cost and near-instant so you can end up dumping a lot of psi points in a turn; Premeditation help with that too.  You'll get by without Premeditation spec, same as you'd get by without LoC spec.  If you really don't think you'd use it, no harm - but me, I use Premeditation on cooldown, every cooldown, every fight, every time.  Even if all I've got for it is Premed + LTI, I'm hitting it on cooldown.  Seems far more useful than 2 more points of Initiative, but of course it would come down to play style.

That's not at all an unfair comment. The way I imagine it is Escape Artist and Premediation both enable mass Rage. So I will be able to use it more liberally without trying to set enemies up too much. After that I begin doing the build's thing, and later on when enemies are all set up I have the combo again. But no pain, no gain, I guess . I am not saying it's the best way to do things. For me using Premediation as soon as it's ready means that I may not have it when I need it, if that makes sense.

I also value Initiative highly. For me it's a core stat of the build that allows you to act right after Force Barrier wears off just when all the enemies are grouped up together. That's why I will try to always have Root Soda on.

[TheAverageGortsby]

For me using Premediation as soon as it's ready means that I may not have it when I need it, if that makes sense.

I also value Initiative highly. For me it's a core stat of the build that allows you to act right after Force Barrier wears off just when all the enemies are grouped up together. That's why I will try to always have Root Soda on.

It does make sense.  Sometimes to avoid that exact situation I'll hit Premed while I'm cowering behind a Force Field regenning psi as long as I have only 1 or 2 turns left on the field, and do nothing so that the cooldown starts but the ability is still active when the field drops so I can put it immediately to use, then again 1-2 turns later (with LTI).

I guess I cheese initiative too much - I'm accustomed to manually starting combat almost every time (there are only like three fights outside of the Arena where you just can't manually start combat, and at least one of those can be avoided by coming in to the map through a different entrance).  Manually starting combat puts you first always.  It might get nerfed fixed some day but until then, I find it both easy and natural to simply avoid the initiative mechanic entirely.

[Ploluap]

  Manually starting combat puts you first always.  It might get nerfed fixed some day but until then, I find it both easy and natural to simply avoid the initiative mechanic entirely.

Really ? i see no reason for a "nerf", it's a core mechanic of the game.

[TheAverageGortsby]

i see no reason for a "nerf", it's a core mechanic of the game.

Well, it allows players to completely nullify all the disadvantages of a low-initiative build.  Since it applies equally to all builds, I don't see a need to nerf it, but if you want a reason, there it is.  Initiative - and thus turn sequencing - is one of the core mechanics of a turn-based game, and manually starting combat without an initiative roll allows the player to fully skip that mechanic and all its considerations.

[HulkOSaurus]

I'm accustomed to manually starting combat almost every time

I do that from time to time, but I generally don't know the exact position of enemies. If I know there are enemies in the area, I will check around corners or outside of doors in combat mode to gain the upper hand, but there have been plenty of situations for me when high initiative has been crucial. Sometimes I pop combat mode to check around, then end combat only to have a patrolling enemy stride around another corner, sometimes I don't notice an enemy spawning somewhere on the screen, high initiative has helped me against Death Stalkers, at times enemies notice me from around corners. I think it's generally a good stat to have. 

[HulkOSaurus]

So the build is coming along nicely.

One thing about playing such a build is that the game progression tied with it feels like an accomplishment. At the moment she's sitting at level 17 and I still don't have enough points in crafting to make the gear I want. I generally avoid larger encounters, and am still not confident enough to confront Balor, for example. On the other hand I was able to finish De Pacino and Jookhela pretty much as soon as I opened the global map. I think the Warehouse - that is, the last quest with the Praetorian Guard, will be very difficult, and will aim to finish it at level 20 at which point I will buy all the benches and finally craft everything I need. The Rathound King and all the Burrowers were a piece of cake, though. 

I think I will put one more point in Strength and take Full Auto on 20 and Pack Rathound on 22.