Stealth Rework

[Lakstoties]

There's a few bits about Stealth and sneaking around that need to be reworked a bit to make the skill a bit more functional.  As it stand right now, it's full potential is held back and loses value at higher skill ratings.

1.  Hostile actions shouldn't immediately put you out of stealth mode.  As it stands any hostile action puts you immediately out of stealth mode, even for things that shouldn't.  If I have a high stealth, stealthily open a door, and pitch a grenade into a room of unsuspecting people...  They shouldn't immediately know where I am at.  After the effects of the grenade, they should start immediately looking to try to find where it come from.  Depending on the attack and maybe some perception checks, they should get a hint as to where the attack came.  This would allow them to go into a search mode to find you and give them very high bonuses to their ability to detect you since they are on high alert.  And further hostile actions towards them will grant them even more bonuses in finding you.  This would effectively put most low level, low stealth skill characters out of stealth.  But for those who dedicate skill points to Stealth, they'd get the benefit of being able to do a few attacks without immediately being detected.

2.  Instead of the binary "Hidden/Not Hidden" mechanic, there needs to be degrees of stealth.  The awareness "Eye" icons should indicate the tier of penalty being applied to all actions when in stealth: Green = No Penalty, Yellow = Minor Penalty, Orange = Moderate Penalty, and Red = Major Penalty.  This creates a more "Press Your Luck" mechanic that puts player more on the edge.  It allows more opportunity for various stealth actions with the balance that you can be technically detected at any time by a bad roll.

3.  Stealth awareness "Eye" levels need a drain down.  As it stands right now, Stealth awareness is a cumulative mechanic.  If the changes above are made, a drain down should be added.  This would account for when NPCs move away from the player character, NPCs get distracted, or, depending on the player's feats, reputation, or high stealth skill, NPC's start to not pay the player that much attention.

4.  The Stealth Mode cooldown should be removed.  What's the problem with trying to hide whenever you can?

[neonesis]

Good post Lakstoties.

From my side, I'd like to add a few things:
- Flashbangs+stealth actually has given me nothing. I threw the flashbang, went into stealth mode, and was detected right away in the next turn. The flashbang should really work for a little more, at least 2 turns.

- Also, other problem, you cannot use any computer consoles during combat. I tried to defeat the raiders in GMS compound by first engaging the turret, then disengaging it, then luring the rest of the Raiders out of the cantina-sort-of-room, and engaging the turret again. Imagine my rage when it turned out I cannot engage it, because I'm in combat. That should definitely be changed. (I am writing about this here, because I don't think every single suggestion deserves another thread.)

[Koschey]

Concerning 3, I'm pretty sure I saw awareness levels sink gradually without blocking the direct line of sight to an enemy.

Also, yeah, I concur with neonesis second point, the hostages stayed in captivity in my melee/subterfuge/crafter playthrough, because I was too weak for a direct confrontation and there was no proper stealthy way to terminate the raider leader (though I guess had I focused on crossbows instead of melee, Snipe would have made short work of him ). Perhaps add a flag to determine wether dialogue initiation with an object is possible during combat?
Alternatively, add a second, more difficult hack check, with which to exempt yourself from the turrets feasible targets.

[neonesis]

Concerning 3, I'm pretty sure I saw awareness levels sink gradually without blocking the direct line of sight to an enemy.

Also, yeah, I concur with neonesis second point, the hostages stayed in captivity in my melee/subterfuge/crafter playthrough, because I was too weak for a direct confrontation and there was no proper stealthy way to terminate the raider leader (though I guess had I focused on crossbows instead of melee, Snipe would have made short work of him ). Perhaps add a flag to determine wether dialogue initiation with an object is possible during combat?
Alternatively, add a second, more difficult hack check, with which to exempt yourself from the turrets feasible targets.

Well, it became the easiest thing on earth with Sniper Rifle - it oneshots most enemies, with Snipe feat also the Raider Leader.

I think it's another issue - the low amount of health that PC and NPCs have compared to overall damage output. I often find that who shoots first generally wins the battle, and that one lucky/unlucky roll can turn the tide of the battle.

EDIT: (to avoid doubleposting)

I also feel that Stealth is currently not fitting its role very well. It's like Stealth is somewhat useful to every type of character, just to be constantly in Stealth Mode, to be the first one who shoots (as it more often than not grants you win). After this first shot, all your Stealth becomes useless.

I just would like to be (at some point) able to "dance in the shadows". With my knife, and nothing else. Leon The Professional-style. Deal damage, and vanish, deal damage and vanish. Put a poison in there, that kind of things.

[Lakstoties]

Another aspect to stealth is also subterfuge.  It might be an interesting mechanic for players to purposely reveal themselves briefly and then retreat the to shadows to lure NPCs out from safety or to distract them.  You could in a turn off Stealth Mode, move a bit, then re-engage stealth mode.  The NPC AI would then be drawn to attack/charge/move in that direction, while the player circles around to attack them from behind or just gets around them.  A feat to have to capitalize on this would be "Phantom Trace".  Instead of having to risk full exposure that comes from deactivating stealth mode, an ability could allow a player to create a "false positive" on the NPC AI that is convincing enough for them to attack.  Only a successful perception or detection check with a penalty based on the player's Stealth ability would allow the NPC AI to realize that it's nothing.

And to keep game balance, I wouldn't limit tactics like this to just the player.  This would open up for some pretty creatively mean enemies.

[wastedswan]

Some general suggestions on stealth mechanics

- Give npc's a cone of vision rather than a 360 degree sphere.
- Instead of the awareness eye having to reach red to spot, have them make a spot check every turn or every few seconds if out of combat.
- Have the awareness eye change their behavior and give them a positive spot modifier.
    green -  +10% to spot
    yellow - stop (if moving) and look towards player +20% to spot
    red - move to where they last had line of sight (los) with player and actively search +50% to spot
- Have a 100% spot chance and short distance
- Light levels effect stealth

- Perhaps add in a sound mechanic

shooting from stealth with a stealthy weapon should put the target and any npc with los on the target into red awareness as above but not unstealth you. the npc's should search in the general direction of where the shot came from. this would add a nice tactical element. maybe have a chance of an npc begin firing at you with a 90% penalty to hit representing them freaking out because they just got splashed with their buddy's brains and just start blasting in your general direction.

the next question is when, if ever, would they go back into a relaxed state? after getting shot and all.

[joejoefine]

Also noise should play a factor. So hopefully if silencers make it into the game, they can be used to reduce the chances of being noticed by enemy NPCs, assuming they aren't right next to the person that dies.

[JeffTheShark]

oh yeah, people now can get a few thousand SGS credits before level 2 by stealing from a few choice areas, like a mad dash before they are fully discovered. namely, engineering, medbay, a few others too.

[JediaKyrol]

I agree with the awareness cone needing to be reduced from 360degrees to maybe 90(cone of sight) or 180(include peripheral vision).  Hearing could account for some of the spotting you while dead-behind them...but a lot of the areas have large fans and other machinery.  That should give them some negative to hearing you.
A spotter cooldown would also be a welcome change.  If I'm sneaking past a guy and bring him up to yellow, then quit moving and he doesn't start walking towards me, his alertness should drop.  I figure hitting "focused" while in stealth should cause a slow alertness degrade in people not looking directly at you or already in combat.
Now...for the NPC's that are actually high level psychics, I can see them having 360 perception and the ability to alert everyone instantly without making a sound as to exactly where you are and what you are doing.  Though you should be able to counter that with your own psychic power.