Spear Throw: Action Points Change

[ClickClickBoom]

Hello Underrail overlords!

Firstly congratulations on the Expedition release, while challenging I've been having a ball with all the new content and changes both in the new areas and old. I've especially been enjoying the new weapons, mainly the spears which added a whole new feel and mechanic as a weapon.
Compared to the other weapon types, one that could be used as melee and ranged felt really dynamic and flexible. It really feels like a lot of thought and care has gone into both spears overall and the spear throw feat.

What I really enjoyed most was the nice progress and increase in power than the spear weapon had, much like assault rifle, smg, psi they have powerful late game abilities like Commando/Spec Ops and more than really boost and add powerful tools to their toolkit. For spear users this came in the form of the Spear Throw: Action Points specialisation.
While useful until level 18 Spear Throw has limitation due to the high AP cost and of course the disadvantages of throwing your weapon away.
After 18, spears, like assault rifles with Commando truly came alive allowing you do throw your spear prior to closing, pick it up and attack twice.

Unfortunately this is no longer they case. 

I know it's been a couple of weeks since the change and I did give a fair go trying to make use of it still but found I almost never used the ability due to it's costs.

The more I think about it the more I think this particular change should be reversed for the following reasons:

• At the high cost of 16 it is more expensive than easily available Plasma Grenades (or other high end grenades at level 18) which...
  
  • Grenades are:
    
    • Are AoE and do much more effective damage on multiple targets
    • On a 4-2 turn cooldown
    • Will rarely miss (with appriate skill)
    • Requires very low throwing investment requirement
    • Optional Grenadier feat to throw more often
    • 15 AP cost
    • Available to all weapon types
    
    
  • Spear throw is:
    
    • Single target, resisted quite heavy by mechanical resistance and a miss means 0 damage
    • 1 turn cooldown
    • Miss chance influenced by evasion/light level
    • Requires very high throwing investment to be accurate
    • Requires Spear Throw feat to become available
    • 16 AP cost
    
    
  • Under most circumstances it is far wiser to use a grenade for reliable effect and have usable AP to spare rather than spend even more AP to potentially do nothing
  • With a cost of 10 Spear Throw was more attractive options and more importantly usable with your basic attacks
  
  
• Almost all weapons in Underrail have some form of progression where they can be either by feats or stats or items...
  
  • Use abilities for free
    
    • SMG/AR with Commando
    • Xbow with Special Tactics
    • PSI with Premeditation
    
    
  • Increase number of attacked
    
    • Pistol with Point Shot/Rapid Fire
    • Xbow with Bolt Quiver
    • Chem Pistol with Advanced Catalyzing Belt
    • Sledge Hammer with Lifting Belt and Pummel Feat
    • Unnarmed with Lightning Punches
    • Pistols/Unarmed/Knives with Dexterity
    • Machete with Flurry
    
    
  • Or gain powerful feats that massive boost the build significantly
    
    • Chem Pistols with Cooked Shot
    • PSI with Locus of Control
    • Sledgehammer with Super Slam
    • etc too many to mention
    
    
  • While sniper rifles also have no AP reduction on a per hit basis it hits extremely hard, commonly able to take out enemies in a single show at range every turn which spears cannot boast.
  • In the case of spears there is no AP reduction and no real growth of the weapon itself as this was solely provided by Spear Throw and its specialisation
    
    • In addition unlike all the other feats/items/etc spear throw requires the significant cost of a high skill investment in throwing and 3+ specialisation points to achieve at level 18 is quite late game.

   
And before anyone says it I know I know, I was having a ball with a fun build and it got broken and I'm bummed out about it. You are 100% correct but I still think its work a shot getting this tweak put back. Was a great new weapon with a novel and interesting mechanic which sadly I can no longer fit into my play style.

Anyway I hope you guys give it a some thought, and maybe give my little southerner a new lease on life.

Have a good one. 

[Faeren]

You can still do this, but it requires using a TiChrome spear with Tabis, giving you an AP cost per attack of 17, leaving 16 for a throw after two attacks, or vice versa. While I guess this is a tad restrictive, it's a similar niche to TiChrome sledgehammers, which can hit thrice when used alongside Tabis and the Lifting Belt.

[ciox]

Pretty much agree with OP's reasoning here.

[ClickClickBoom]

You can still do this, but it requires using a TiChrome spear with Tabis, giving you an AP cost per attack of 17, leaving 16 for a throw after two attacks, or vice versa. While I guess this is a tad restrictive, it's a similar niche to TiChrome sledgehammers, which can hit thrice when used alongside Tabis and the Lifting Belt.

I'm not sure eliminating almost all spears from use in order to use a single feat with 3 spec points is practical, it even increases the penalty of trying to use it by forcing the use of tabi boots in addition to already significant cost of using it effectively.

This is further exaggerated by the fact sledges hit a fair chunk harder than spears, not counting feats like Super Slam. This is especially true as of Expedition where a sledge hammer user can use Balor's hammer easier than ever for truly massive attacks without the need of adrenaline making the tabi+tichrome set-up ultimately not required late game, spear users do not have any such option.

P.s. The super soldier drug buyable from shops is kind of insulting to crafters imo but thats a different story.

[Styg]

Thank you for the analysis. I'll look into spear throw specializations again for sure in the near future.

I also don't particularly like the tiChrome+tabi changing the number of attacks per turn for medium and heavy melee weapons, so I might do something about that as well.

[newageofpower]

Thank you for the analysis. I'll look into spear throw specializations again for sure in the near future.

I also don't particularly like the tiChrome+tabi changing the number of attacks per turn for medium and heavy melee weapons, so I might do something about that as well.

Eh? But I really liked it, gave those items a unique flavor... Gives non-dodge/evade characters reasons to wear Tabi; and even then the optimal choice isn't always Tabi.

[ClickClickBoom]

Thank you for the analysis. I'll look into spear throw specializations again for sure in the near future.

I also don't particularly like the tiChrome+tabi changing the number of attacks per turn for medium and heavy melee weapons, so I might do something about that as well.

Thank you! Looking forward to see what happens with it, I really loved the feat since the moment I saw it.

Thank you for the analysis. I'll look into spear throw specializations again for sure in the near future.

I also don't particularly like the tiChrome+tabi changing the number of attacks per turn for medium and heavy melee weapons, so I might do something about that as well.

Eh? But I really liked it, gave those items a unique flavor... Gives non-dodge/evade characters reasons to wear Tabi; and even then the optimal choice isn't always Tabi.

I think it was more having a look at how people are essentially forced to use ti-chrome and tabi if they want more attacks per turn.

Will be interesting. 

[MirddinEmris]

Thank you for the analysis. I'll look into spear throw specializations again for sure in the near future.

I also don't particularly like the tiChrome+tabi changing the number of attacks per turn for medium and heavy melee weapons, so I might do something about that as well.

Thank you! Looking forward to see what happens with it, I really loved the feat since the moment I saw it.

Thank you for the analysis. I'll look into spear throw specializations again for sure in the near future.

I also don't particularly like the tiChrome+tabi changing the number of attacks per turn for medium and heavy melee weapons, so I might do something about that as well.

Eh? But I really liked it, gave those items a unique flavor... Gives non-dodge/evade characters reasons to wear Tabi; and even then the optimal choice isn't always Tabi.

I think it was more having a look at how people are essentially forced to use ti-chrome and tabi if they want more attacks per turn.

Will be interesting. 

If the tichrome doesn't give more attacks then it's kinda pointless.  Otehrwise it's weaker than the rest of metals.

[MirddinEmris]

P.s. The super soldier drug buyable from shops is kind of insulting to crafters imo but thats a different story.

Not really, you can buy a lot of drugs if you are lucky on the draw. Besides, the only way to craft the thing is in the final area, meaning that it's usefullness was very limited to the points that even with crafters who could do that i rarely bothered to. Basically it's there to help you kill the boss, maybe iris too and that's it. Now you have the chance to sue it in normal gameplay and only in limited numbers, so the rarity is still there.

[MirddinEmris]

Thank you for the analysis. I'll look into spear throw specializations again for sure in the near future.

I also don't particularly like the tiChrome+tabi changing the number of attacks per turn for medium and heavy melee weapons, so I might do something about that as well.

Again, what would be the actual advantage of even using TiChrome if it doesn't help with action economy. As it is now, you need to heavily invest into that, in terms of restricting your gear and putting spec points, to actually get an additional attack (and it's a throw, not regular attack).  And you get lower stats on your weapon compared to reast of the metals, even simple steel.