Blackmoor's Money Suggestions

[blackmoor]

Would it be possible to implement any of these suggestions?

- Completing quests for merchants cause them to give you better deals--OR--if you save the town merchants like you more.

- When you pickpocket a merchant, you can steal the amount of cash they have in their barter window (the amount dynamically updates).

- Characters with skilled bartering or intimidation can use dialogue challenges to win discounts with merchants.

- Major story quests grant you more money, plus bonus items if you do a really good job (note: 500 is not enough to restock on supplies).

- Locked chests contain money (currently none of them have cash in them).


Note: I really like the difficulty in the game (it's a big part of the appeal), but I think the economy could be improved.

[LazyMonk]

How far in the game are you, blackmoor?
Money stops being an issue, for most players, after the GMS compound quest.
Characters that are more dependent on equipment may have a rougher time at the beginning of the game, but overall the economy isn't too harsh on the player.

[blackmoor]

How far in the game are you, blackmoor?
Money stops being an issue, for most players, after the GMS compound quest.
Characters that are more dependent on equipment may have a rougher time at the beginning of the game, but overall the economy isn't too harsh on the player.

Hello, LazyMonk.

I'm at the end of the Alpha main plot with a jack-of-all-trades, meaning my characters needs to do a lot of shopping in addition to basic survival supplies. I realize the game is about being smart with resources and not taking a single hypo or bullet for granted. In my experience money isn't any easier to get later in the game, but that's a matter of opinion. This thread is merely a collection of suggestions I thought of during my play through.

Being able to steal money or items back was one of the funnest bartering mechanics from Planescape Torment, Baldur's Gate and Fallout. These classic RPGs are the giant shoulders that Underrail stands on. I merely leave this thread as a reminder and hope that the monetary system as a whole is expanded and has added depth in the future.

[UnLimiTeD]

Interesting that your character costs so much. 
By the time I'm in the Junkyard, and I haven't yet ever even gotten that rotor circuit board or whatever, I'm normally carrying above 1000 stygian coins with me.
Most get hellish expensive afterwards. Nonetheless, there's some merit to some of those suggestions.

[Eliasfrost]

The degradation of equipment introduced an immense money sink, with the additional repair cost, you spend at least 4 times the money you did before, that's why money is a slight issue in late game, I had to trade like 5 -10 rifles/pistols, 10+ armor sets along with ammo and junk to afford a few repair kits, that's mental.

[blackmoor]

The degradation of equipment introduced an immense money sink, with the additional repair cost, you spend at least 4 times the money you did before, that's why money is a slight issue in late game, I had to trade like 5 -10 rifles/pistols, 10+ armor sets along with ammo and junk to afford a few repair kits, that's mental.

That's exactly my experience as well, nackidno.

As I understand it, there will be changes to the economy coming up which will help. But I also think it would be great to be able to use cleverness or skill to make bartering advantageous. At the very least, there should be more opportunities to make money and not have to spend a fortune on bullets, repair kits and other essential supplies.

[UnLimiTeD]

I still haven't found out how you use up that much money.
As for a skill to get more money, use junkyard surprise until you have +3 Int.

[blackmoor]

I still haven't found out how you use up that much money.
As for a skill to get more money, use junkyard surprise until you have +3 Int.

My character does a lot of shopping. Believe it or not, shopping is a core appeal of RPG games which is probably why it's so extensive and complicated in this game as well. I think we can agree that there are some difficulties with money in the game, mostly because it's still in Alpha. But I'd like to keep discussing how to expand the current monetary system to increase immersion, role-playing and overall fun.

[LazyMonk]

I believe we, can only all, agree about credits being scarce at the beginning of the game. And that's just the very beginning.

Economy is a fragile things in cRPGs, and its usually a matter of time before it breaks and money becomes irrelevant.
Underrail inst in need of more measures to make the games economy easier for the player. Its more the other way around.
Back at version 0.1.6.0 you would hit the end of the alpha with more Stygian coins than you could count. Things are much better now
since you have now to rationalize your credits to keep your gear in good condition. Adding measures that would bring us back to something similar to the 0.1.6.0. scenario, doesn't make much sense considering that the game's economy inst very hard. right now.

Have you checked the crafting skills? Some of them like tailoring are quite useful on boosting your savings.

[Eliasfrost]

I think it depends on what playstyle you have, I played a melee character with heavy armor and lockpick/hacking, he used the rechargable sledges. That's a lot of management, lockpicks and haxxors, batteries for the sledgehammer, repaircosts because the enemies get close enough to hit every blow, along with degradable weapons. If you play a sneaky dude with only lockpicks and a sniperrifle. you only need repairs and lockpicks, so the difference from class to class, playstyle to playstyle, is quite immense.

[UnLimiTeD]

I found that playing a melee dude is about the cheapest playstyle you can get, short of shroomhead.
You don't always need to charge the Hammer, you can kill weak enemies with fists (armour barely degrades at all), and running back to the doctor after every encounter is just part of the game.
Of course, mechanics or tailoring are a must. It's the only way to get good armour, anyway.
Admittedly, right now with melee weapons degrading on a miss it's still harsh, but that's already been confirmed to change.

[blackmoor]

Economy is a fragile things in cRPGs, and its usually a matter of time before it breaks and money becomes irrelevant.

That will never happen in this game because of item degradation, energy/ammo and the need for medical supplies. At the very least you'll always need to buy repair kits, hypos and energy cells (among other things) no matter how advanced your character becomes.

Underrail isn't in need of more measures to make the games economy easier for the player.

LazyMonk, you know I'm not saying the game should be easy. In fact, I've said difficult RPGs are better because they force players to make good decisions. What I'm suggesting are ways to expand the monetary system in Underrail, so it has complexity comparable to classic RPGs like Torment and Fallout. You don't have to agree with that, but I feel pretty strongly about it.

Have you checked the crafting skills? Some of them like tailoring are quite useful on boosting your savings.

Crafting is another reason why I do a lot of shopping (and therefore why I think the money system could be expanded).

@UnLimiTeD
For me, running to the doctor after every encounter would be too time consuming, so I just buy the medical supplies.

@nackidno
I agree with you very much.

[LazyMonk]

I am on my 4th character so far and yes the costs change a lot from build to build.
I also did a melee guy with a heavy armor. I didn't had much trouble with cash other than the beginning.
Managed to build a quite decent Shock Tungsten Steel Sledgehammer (value 9923) and still had 411 Stygian coins left.

That will never happen in this game because of item degradation, energy/ammo and the need for medical supplies. At the very least you'll always need to buy repair kits, hypos and energy cells (among other things) no matter how advanced your character becomes.

We don't know that. S.T.A.L.K.E.R. had item durability + ammo + medical supplies + food and its economy still became meaningless.

LazyMonk, you know I'm not saying the game should be easy. In fact, I've said difficult RPGs are better because they force players to make good decisions. What I'm suggesting are ways to expand the monetary system in Underrail, so it has complexity comparable to classic RPGs like Torment and Fallout. You don't have to agree with that, but I feel pretty strongly about it.

blackmoor, you have to agree that most of the suggestion you have made would lead to an easier time for the player.
I agree with rewards from quests if you manage to do some optional objectives in a quest, but those are already in the game.
Tanner pays you more if you manage to find more than 3 outposts and you get a free hypos/pair of boots/a functional smg if you manage to find the old man's watch.
There are dialogue lines based on the barter skill that get you better deals.
The game is still short and i am sure more of these will find their way in the full version.

Fallout steal mechanic was overpowered to the point of being ridicule. Being able to walk into a store and shove and entire shelf of goods to your pocket was ludicrous. And so was pick-pocketing back the 1023 coins you used earlier buy that laser pistol.
Pick-pocketing should only work on small amounts of cash and small objects like keys.
Fallout had many great things, but stealing a bozar from the back of a guard without him noticing it, was not one of them. 

[blackmoor]

LazyMonk, you know I'm not saying the game should be easy. In fact, I've said difficult RPGs are better because they force players to make good decisions. What I'm suggesting are ways to expand the monetary system in Underrail, so it has complexity comparable to classic RPGs like Torment and Fallout. You don't have to agree with that, but I feel pretty strongly about it.

blackmoor, you have to agree that most of the suggestion you have made would lead to an easier time for the player.

My suggestions would provide more options only and I'll explain why.

Depth and complexity are what make and RPG great, and the more opportunities for choice the better. For example, you said you found a playing style that allows you to make a comfortable amount money and that's great. But I don't have the same playing style and therefore I'll make different choices. Just because there is the option to steal doesn't mean every player will do it. Just because there is the option to do a favor for a merchant and get 25% discount doesn't mean everyone will do it. Role-playing games are about making the right decision for your character, not doing everything available.

RPG games need a lot of options, because players make different choices according to the role they are playing.

I agree with rewards from quests if you manage to do some optional objectives in a quest, but those are already in the game.

And I'm suggesting expanding on what is already available and providing more depth. Options, depth and role-playing.

Fallout had many great things

The original Fallout was one of the best games ever made. The fact that it had lots of options is what made it great.

[joejoefine]

I feel like, at the very least, the option to steal more expensive weapons should be available to the dedicated pickpocket (as well as more money).

Lazymonk does make a good point in that stealing a bozar from the guard in F2 did seem a bit unfair. For me it resulted in save scumming to get a really good item, then selling it for enough money to buy my favorite weapon, the .223 pistol. But I strongly believe that that type of gameplay can be very fun if done in a fairer way - so for a person who invests a lot of points into pickpocket and stealth, they should have the option to steal heavier weaponry, and would be able to succeed in stealing it.

The same should go for money - as you become a better pickpocket, you are capable of stealing progressively more and more money from merchants that an ordinary thief couldn't get away with.

Currently I dislike the dynamic of filling up a bar and not being able to steal anymore, simply because it seems quite unrealistic. But I understand that something like it is necessary to prevent stealing from being either overpowered, or leading to save scumming.

I feel like a more reasonable approach, might be to allow the player to only steal a certain amount from the merchant (or other NPC). After that experience, the NPC will become more guarded, and his remaining items will be harder to steal. So only after you invest more points, will you have the option to steal those items available again, in addition to any larger items in his/her inventory. Since most characters will only have 4-5 items on them (where an item could also be a stack of money/ammo/etc.), I feel like this inventory categorization wouldn't take too much time.

Either way I hope Styg finds a way to incorporate an interesting but fair pickpocketing system into the game, which is hopefully a bit more realistic and allows for more progression as a pickpocket, so you could go back to older areas and still use the skill.

- - -

I like the suggestions for improvement on money in general, certainly with the locked chests at least. Also I am all favor of more skill-related quests.

Money is definitely hard to come by. I'm not even sure what its like to play a character that doesn't invest as many points into barter with each new level; I shudder to think at how difficult it would be to even buy one or two repair kits. Thankfully now degradation rates are reduced so its probably not as hellish as I imagine