Is Psi Empathy worth it on a melee Machete person?

[zion563]

As topic states-is it worth taking on a melee character with good trap skill? If so-around when would it be worth the 25% Health loss?

[harperfan7]

psi is the strongest "build" in the game
even if just for temporal manipulation, yes it's worth it

[destroyor]

With the release of expansion, I would say the balance of power is now tip so far toward psi all build should integrated at minimum 45 base skill point investment on Psychokinesis, 35 base skill point investment on Metathermics, 70 base skill point investment on Temporal Manipulation.

Quick Tinkering (QT) used to be one of the main power equalizer between psi and non-psi build: easy to use (2 turn cooldown, no AP cost), versatile w/ many different traps, so it's a great defensive and great offense feat. Psi build usually don't spec toward DEX so QT was usually used in non-psi build.
Of course that's why QT deserved to be nerfed to the ground. /s

Seriously psi hybrid *any* build is now the meta of the game. I would note many build should not aim for Locus of Control due to the high WIL requirement. On the other hand you should try your hardest to get Premeditation (INT 6 requirement).

[chimaera]

Yeah, playing a stealthy thief with psi now, and temporal is frankly about powergaming. Psychotemporal contraction is basicaly adrenaline, but without the fatigue effect, while limited temporal increment reduces cooldowns on everything. And future orientation & psychotemporal acc don't even have a stat requirement, so they're very easy to get.

[zion563]

I sort of experimented with taking Psi Empathy and JUST Temporal Manipulation with the Temporal Distortion, Limited Temporal Increment and Psycho-temporal Dilation skills from Ethan and frankly I couldn't figure out whether I should debuff a few times or just go slashing with machete. I used some Psi beetles to try it out. I was confused by a new set of abilities how to mesh them in with a Melee Sword. Also the lower health pool wasn't great.
Any advice for how and if I should integrate this skillset? I have been putting points into TM (only TM in that tree)

[TheAverageGortsby]

I sort of experimented with taking Psi Empathy and JUST Temporal Manipulation with the Temporal Distortion, Limited Temporal Increment and Psycho-temporal Dilation skills from Ethan and frankly I couldn't figure out whether I should debuff a few times or just go slashing with machete. I used some Psi beetles to try it out. I was confused by a new set of abilities how to mesh them in with a Melee Sword. Also the lower health pool wasn't great.
Any advice for how and if I should integrate this skillset? I have been putting points into TM (only TM in that tree)

Just buff up. Psi haste and go. More attacks == more damage.  Got a few AP left over at the end of the turn? LTI.  Psi slow is situational - you'll know when you use it.  It'll be when someone with a giant hammer is trying to catch you as you run away screaming, waiting for the hypo cooldown to tick.

[destroyor]

I sort of experimented with taking Psi Empathy and JUST Temporal Manipulation with the Temporal Distortion, Limited Temporal Increment and Psycho-temporal Dilation skills from Ethan and frankly I couldn't figure out whether I should debuff a few times or just go slashing with machete. I used some Psi beetles to try it out. I was confused by a new set of abilities how to mesh them in with a Melee Sword. Also the lower health pool wasn't great.
Any advice for how and if I should integrate this skillset? I have been putting points into TM (only TM in that tree)

Psi is a package deal. It's sub-optimal to JUST invest in TM at the cost of 25% health.
Psychokinesis:
25 Force field - always useful when you need to block or separate enemies or wait out cooldown
30 Electrokinesis - guarantee stun unless target is immune to stun at a high AP cost and makes a lot of noise
45 Electrokinetic Imprint - psi trap that stun for 1 turn
Metathermics:
35 Cryostasis - freeze target from 2 to 5 turns at high psi cost. *important* it's silent
Temporal Manipulation - just want to comment Stasis is very useful to turn yourself as bait in order to waste enemies' special attack such as flashbang (8 turn cooldown), Mental Breakdown (8 turn cooldown), throwing net (4 turn cooldown, make sure you eat rathound BBQ + take adrenaline before entering stasis). It's also useful to wait out cooldown

All of the above are invaluable crowd control skills. You should get them all or avoid psi altogether. I don't know about your build but psi hybrid usually will have 6 INT in order to get Premediation.

[chimaera]

Maybe on the highest difficulty setting, but when I've tried a psi hybrid with psychokinesis & temporal on hard, I ended up never using psychokinesis. Grenadier with lti when you can craft high level grenades is already too much. 90 ap for three turns.

Felt a bit too cheesy, tbh. Imo the temporal feats should have some stat requirements.

[zion563]

I sort of experimented with taking Psi Empathy and JUST Temporal Manipulation with the Temporal Distortion, Limited Temporal Increment and Psycho-temporal Dilation skills from Ethan and frankly I couldn't figure out whether I should debuff a few times or just go slashing with machete. I used some Psi beetles to try it out. I was confused by a new set of abilities how to mesh them in with a Melee Sword. Also the lower health pool wasn't great.
Any advice for how and if I should integrate this skillset? I have been putting points into TM (only TM in that tree)

Psi is a package deal. It's sub-optimal to JUST invest in TM at the cost of 25% health.
Psychokinesis:
25 Force field - always useful when you need to block or separate enemies or wait out cooldown
30 Electrokinesis - guarantee stun unless target is immune to stun at a high AP cost and makes a lot of noise
45 Electrokinetic Imprint - psi trap that stun for 1 turn
Metathermics:
35 Cryostasis - freeze target from 2 to 5 turns at high psi cost. *important* it's silent
Temporal Manipulation - just want to comment Stasis is very useful to turn yourself as bait in order to waste enemies' special attack such as flashbang (8 turn cooldown), Mental Breakdown (8 turn cooldown), throwing net (4 turn cooldown, make sure you eat rathound BBQ + take adrenaline before entering stasis). It's also useful to wait out cooldown

All of the above are invaluable crowd control skills. You should get them all or avoid psi altogether. I don't know about your build but psi hybrid usually will have 6 INT in order to get Premediation.

Thanks I'll try it then-I have 6 Intelligence

[zion563]

Maybe on the highest difficulty setting, but when I've tried a psi hybrid with psychokinesis & temporal on hard, I ended up never using psychokinesis. Grenadier with lti when you can craft high level grenades is already too much. 90 ap for three turns.

Felt a bit too cheesy, tbh. Imo the temporal feats should have some stat requirements.

Sorry what is LTI?

[chimaera]

Limited temporal increment, you can buy it from Ethan if you have 25 temporal psi. So you can now throw one grenade in the first turn > LTI, and if you have grenadier that means you can throw another in the second turn.

I should clarify that the "90 ap for three turns" refers to psychotemporal contraction with the psychotemporal acceleration feat and combined with adrenaline.
To me it seems like temporal psi was designed with the dominating difficulty in mind, with the result that it's overpowered on lower difficulties.

[TheAverageGortsby]

To me it seems like temporal psi was designed with the dominating difficulty in mind, with the result that it's overpowered on lower difficulties.

It always seemed to me like it was an effort to bridge the power gap between psi builds and everything else.  The result of course was that full psi got nonlinearly even more powerful compared to other builds, but adding in Temporal Manipulation on a 3 Will build with only 60-70 points to spare does get you somewhere near the power of a pre-expansion tri-school psi build.

Probably it would have been better in the sense of general build balance to make Temporal Manipulation somehow something other than psi - sort of like in Tales of Maj'Eyal how there are mutually exclusive special ability sources, if TM had been somehow designed to not work well with the main three psi schools, then there might be be less whining from the "psi is too OP" crowd.  But what it really does, really well, is allow non-psi builds to exchange a little bit of health for a whole lot of power and utility.  You get a lot of increased build potential for very little cost in skill points, no cost in stat points, and a small cost in health points and vulnerability to psionic inhibition.

[chimaera]

To me it seems like temporal psi was designed with the dominating difficulty in mind, with the result that it's overpowered on lower difficulties.

It always seemed to me like it was an effort to bridge the power gap between psi builds and everything else.

But why then the recent change to yet again weaken quick tinkering (and therefore builds that use traps)? Doesn't make sense.

I think adding these new effects via a non-psi way would be more interesting. E.g. you could have a new bunch of medicines that are not well tolerated by psi users, maybe they cause psi inhibition, or even cannot be used by psi.

[TheAverageGortsby]

But why then the recent change to yet again weaken quick tinkering (and therefore builds that use traps)? Doesn't make sense.

Well, "traps" isn't a build. I'm sure someone probably made a joke build that only used traps, but really, really edge cases round to zero.  Traps don't make a build, they augment an existing build.  Low-Will TM also isn't a build, it augments an existing build.  And low-Will TM plus Quick Tinkering and Future Orientation meant instant traps every turn.  That's why QT got nerfed - because there's no reason not to go into TM to LTI, and that was too much.  It's why LTI was nerfed, too, before release; it was too much.  Makes perfect sense.

[chimaera]

That's where we disagree. Should every feat or ability or item that is overpowered when combined with temporal psi get nerfed? Like grenadier with lti for example. Or adrenaline with ptc.

The result of such "balancing" is that psi-utilizing builds get more powerful at the cost of non-psi builds. So no, it doesn't make sense to me.