Super high avoidance Precognition build?

[CyberneticSaturn]

Hey everyone,

I've been trying to figure out how to make a character with the highest possible amount of avoidance - I know before expedition avoidance wasn't really that great, but now with Precog and its additive bonus I figure there must be a way to get most enemies in the game below 20% chance to hit, but it doesn't seem like anyone has focused on making a build like that. 

I know if you get TM to around 450 you should get 40% added avoidance - what kind of build would work that could incorporate dodge and evasion to push that up to super high levels?  I assume it would need high willpower to make TM super high, so I guess a psi build that does its damage mostly using TM and maybe some stuff like distortion & cryostasis, but I'm having some issues balancing crafting, willpower, and agility to get it to work out.

http://underrail.info.tm/build/?HgMDBQYDEAoAAAAAeMKRAFBfAABGUB48Rkt9N8KgMgBBJFArP8KGFCpkwoghwocoZycKcsKKwrfCnWzipoYF4rGMCt-_

This is what I've got so far, but I'm not sure if it would even work without points in stealth - do dodge and evasion work when you don't have initiative? 

[CyberneticSaturn]

http://underrail.info.tm/build/?HgMDCgMDEAgAAAAAQcKgVS0eAMKgUFoARlBLRjLCoDwAACskKD_ChhQqZEchOcKHCsKIQcK3csKKwp1s4p20A-KitQLisYwK378

Got rid of mercantile, dropped con and increased agi - reduced psycho below the implosion cap to increase traps to make up for the ultra low con.  Evasion is much higher, dodge is still kinda low though.  Seems like this would work better than the first one. 

[harperfan7]

high agility (10+)
nimble
infused siphoner leather armor
infused siphoner tabis
temporal manipulation headband
precognition
jumping bean
adrenaline
deflection + melee skill
boxing gloves
cloaking device
yell
crippling strike
cave ear poison
several new veteran feats

[Eximus]

Sprint + Evasive Manuevers + TM Contraction gives you 225 effective evasion for 1 turn. Which is significant if you add in other bonuses from food/armor/cloak.

Issues with super high avoidance is that it only works on difficulties easier than dominating, and it's really not reliable enough to depend on it. IE you'll still be spending your yellow action on breaking los against snipers, this really doesn't let you sit there because you are still going to get 1 shot from time to time with 3 con.

So to fully build a character around it is kinda futile imo, you'll still have to play like a 3 con character anyway because you will die from bursts, get 1 shot from tk punch and insta-die to grenades.

The point of sprint + evasive is when there isn't any cover and you're expecting to get hit from a sniper.

Only reliable avoidance is uncanny dodge, which unless you're making a non-psi melee character, can be left at 40, since psi user has no issue CCing enemies at close range, and uncanny dodge is 100% reliable for desperate situations.

Psi characters also do not need traps for the above reason. cryostasis,stasis,mental breakdown, and fear is plenty CC, especially with locus.

What the build really lacks is a source of reliable CC outside of cryostasis/stasis, and burst damage. TM can kill but it's just not bursty enough on demand.

Pretty much I would change this into a psychosis build and drop lock/hack/traps since the loot you get from those isn't really needed and the good loot is behind much higher gates in expedition.

http://underrail.info.tm/build/?HgMDCgMDEAgAAAAAZMKgVQAAAABQWgBGUEvCoMKgwqA8AAArJDksFEEPZcKIZiEKwocqV8KdbHLCt8KK4qK0AeKitQLirIMC4qyMCt-_

Higher telekinetic also is major because disruptive field is very very good at what it does, in that the AI often wont even attempt to make ranged attacks since their chance to hit is so low.

Blitz is not very important because your limiting resource will always be psi, and contraction already gives you all the action points you'd ever want or need. Cyrokinetic orb makes paranoid also kinda useless since it's the ultimate stealth-sweeper. So this build lets you have incredible dodge/evasion when you really need it (active instead of passive which is what psi-avoidance excells at), and much much better damage potential. Why bother min-maxing evasion build when you can just 1 shot snipers with mania'd tk punch and entire groups of mooks with orb

[harperfan7]

I played a dodge/evasion character in the expedition beta on DOMINATING, and I noticed that once I got my dodge/evasion into the 400's, natives would miss me more often than not, and by the 600's, they had a minimal hit chance. 

With snipers, you shouldn't ever let them have a clean shot at you.  Give them some cave ear poison, rush up in their face, hit them with crippling strike, yell, whatever.  But dodge/evasion can keep you alive against the trash mobs while you focus on the tough ones.  Bosses will still hit you pretty much no matter what.

[CyberneticSaturn]

I played a dodge/evasion character in the expedition beta on DOMINATING, and I noticed that once I got my dodge/evasion into the 400's, natives would miss me more often than not, and by the 600's, they had a minimal hit chance. 

With snipers, you shouldn't ever let them have a clean shot at you.  Give them some cave ear poison, rush up in their face, hit them with crippling strike, yell, whatever.  But dodge/evasion can keep you alive against the trash mobs while you focus on the tough ones.  Bosses will still hit you pretty much no matter what.

Was that with or without super high Temporal Manipulation?  From what I've read it's an additive bonus to the final chance to hit, which would mean if you could get enemies down to about 50-60% chance to hit, 450 in TM would drop your chance to be hit to around 10% by a sizeable amount of enemies.   If bosses are still hitting you no matter what then it might not be worth the 3 con hassle and points in Dodge/Evasion

[CyberneticSaturn]

Sprint + Evasive Manuevers + TM Contraction gives you 225 effective evasion for 1 turn. Which is significant if you add in other bonuses from food/armor/cloak.

Issues with super high avoidance is that it only works on difficulties easier than dominating, and it's really not reliable enough to depend on it. IE you'll still be spending your yellow action on breaking los against snipers, this really doesn't let you sit there because you are still going to get 1 shot from time to time with 3 con.

So to fully build a character around it is kinda futile imo, you'll still have to play like a 3 con character anyway because you will die from bursts, get 1 shot from tk punch and insta-die to grenades.

The point of sprint + evasive is when there isn't any cover and you're expecting to get hit from a sniper.

Only reliable avoidance is uncanny dodge, which unless you're making a non-psi melee character, can be left at 40, since psi user has no issue CCing enemies at close range, and uncanny dodge is 100% reliable for desperate situations.

Psi characters also do not need traps for the above reason. cryostasis,stasis,mental breakdown, and fear is plenty CC, especially with locus.

What the build really lacks is a source of reliable CC outside of cryostasis/stasis, and burst damage. TM can kill but it's just not bursty enough on demand.

Pretty much I would change this into a psychosis build and drop lock/hack/traps since the loot you get from those isn't really needed and the good loot is behind much higher gates in expedition.

http://underrail.info.tm/build/?HgMDCgMDEAgAAAAAZMKgVQAAAABQWgBGUEvCoMKgwqA8AAArJDksFEEPZcKIZiEKwocqV8KdbHLCt8KK4qK0AeKitQLirIMC4qyMCt-_

Higher telekinetic also is major because disruptive field is very very good at what it does, in that the AI often wont even attempt to make ranged attacks since their chance to hit is so low.

Blitz is not very important because your limiting resource will always be psi, and contraction already gives you all the action points you'd ever want or need. Cyrokinetic orb makes paranoid also kinda useless since it's the ultimate stealth-sweeper. So this build lets you have incredible dodge/evasion when you really need it (active instead of passive which is what psi-avoidance excells at), and much much better damage potential. Why bother min-maxing evasion build when you can just 1 shot snipers with mania'd tk punch and entire groups of mooks with orb

I got traps since 3 con and no perception seemed like it would really suck in terms of getting blown to smithereens by every trap I see.  Does evasion not effect grenades, or is the damage from grenades even with evasion end up so high that you're still getting detonated in one hit at 3 con? 

Paranoia was there to reduce crits since i have low con and also wanted to see traps more effectively - sounds like reloading is the main way of dealing with getting crit though. 

I didn't take metathermics super high because I used it a year or two ago, just one shot everything and killed what was left while it runs in circles burning.  Made it to level 16 iirc, but didn't beat the game, but I don't want to just shoot fireballs at everything again.  I originally had the psycho a lot higher, but dropped it so I (hopefully) wouldn't die to traps constantly with 3 con.  Is taking metathermics that high worth it for the cryo shield?  50% isn't super reliable, but it's another nice layered defense against getting one shot I guess.

I like to play with oddity mode - do you get enough exp without lockpick and hacking in that mode?  I remember you got a lot of your exp from that before the expansion came out.

Last question - I'd have imagined that stacking high dodge with high TM precog would have been quite effective due to the additive reduction on dodge chance - as long as you can get the tohit chance to 60ish from evasion and dodge you should be able to floor it with precog and like 400 TM skill, or am I misunderstanding how the ability works?

[harperfan7]

Was that with or without super high Temporal Manipulation?  From what I've read it's an additive bonus to the final chance to hit, which would mean if you could get enemies down to about 50-60% chance to hit, 450 in TM would drop your chance to be hit to around 10% by a sizeable amount of enemies.   If bosses are still hitting you no matter what then it might not be worth the 3 con hassle and points in Dodge/Evasion

With maxed temp manip skill, 3 will, temp psi headband.  I think my dodge/evasion alone had them down to minimal hit chance, and precog has its own miss chance. Bosses have such insane high attack skills that you just can't avoid their attacks outside of uncanny dodge or evasive maneuvers, so you just have to make sure they dont attack you. 

[harperfan7]

I got traps since 3 con and no perception seemed like it would really suck in terms of getting blown to smithereens by every trap I see.  Does evasion not effect grenades, or is the damage from grenades even with evasion end up so high that you're still getting detonated in one hit at 3 con? 

Paranoia was there to reduce crits since i have low con and also wanted to see traps more effectively - sounds like reloading is the main way of dealing with getting crit though. 

I like to play with oddity mode - do you get enough exp without lockpick and hacking in that mode?  I remember you got a lot of your exp from that before the expansion came out.

Last question - I'd have imagined that stacking high dodge with high TM precog would have been quite effective due to the additive reduction on dodge chance - as long as you can get the tohit chance to 60ish from evasion and dodge you should be able to floor it with precog and like 400 TM skill, or am I misunderstanding how the ability works?

Traps for detection is a good idea.  Escape artist is a fantastic feat in the expansion.  Evasion works wonderfully against explosions; with I think 350 evasion you take minimal damage (15%; easily blocked by even leather armor, albeit infused, as well as energy shields).  You get enough exp without locks/hax.  Precognition has its own miss chance; it doesn't stack with dodge/evasion; it's in addition to.  Can't speak for metathermics.

[Fenix]

So with Precognition you have two checks for calculating if you was hit - first from skill, and Precognition acting as second chance?

[CyberneticSaturn]

I'm not sure yet either.  The way the wiki is written says it has one check, but this thread says it's two. 

Presumably, it would be stronger vs strong enemies if they directly stack, and stronger against masses of enemies if they don't directly stack (i.e. two checks) since anything with floored tohit chance would actually end up having a 5% chance to hit. 

I just made it out of depot A, so I'll update when I get precognition and enough TM skill for a good test.