Are firearm pistol builds really that bad?

[Ymiraku]

I've been reading everywhere that firearm pistol builds are terrible, is this still the case? I have been playing an smg build using stealth but I feel incredibly squishy. I would really prefer a
stealth type pistol character which does alot of damage with pistols but uses grenades and traps well also. Everything im reading about smg builds etc. says to dump constitution down to 3? ive been doing this but man im just getting wrecked. Have been playing on normal but just deleted my character so im going to start again.

Advice would be most welcome.

[TheAverageGortsby]

I wouldn't call them terrible, but they're probably the weakest "real" build in UnderRail.  By this I mean of course you can make a worse build, but you have to deliberately limit yourself - like a throwing-only build, or some sort of just-for-the-laughs joke build.  On the other hand, there aren't many feats for firearm pistols only, so if you can fit it into your build concept, you can add in energy and chemical pistols - all using the same optimizing stats of Perception and Dexterity - and you can come up with a very viable build that way.  It's still a pistol build, just not "firearm pistols only".  Firearm pistols only is going to be pretty tough in some parts, but you can do it.  Enough W2C, and you can kill anything =)

[Ymiraku]

Thanks for the response. So chem pistols are the way to go then? what sort of stat spread should i be focusing on? will this do?
3 str
10 dex
7 agility
3 const
10 per
3 will
4 intel

And would i choose all the same talents as a regular firearm pistol build? or do i need to specialise into psionics also?

[TheAverageGortsby]

You never need to spec into psionics, unless obviously you're a psi build

You're going to need some more Int for a chem pistol build, but other than that your stats look good.  If you intend for chem pistols to be your primary weapons, then you really sort of do need Mad Chemist and Cooked Shot.  You can get by with 8 Per, at least early on, if you want to pull points from there for Int.  And yes, you mostly take the same feats for chem/energy pistol builds that you'd use for firearm pistol builds - you still want your Aimed Shot, Execute (good lord, the plasma Execute crits), Point Shot, Kneecap shot.  You just also probably need to make room for Mad Chemist and Cooked Shot.

You're not really going to have a viable chem pistol build without making your own, though. (Yes, I know XAL is good enough to use forever, but getting to XAL without your own crafted pistols will make you want to gouge your own eyes out)  So be prepared to sink some points into Crafting.

If the reason you've got 7 Agi is for Interloper, I'd like to close out by mentioning that if you're crafting your own armor, you'll be able to get enough move speed from Infused Hopper Leather Armor and good tabis that Interloper won't be necessary at all anywhere ever.  If you have it for Hit & Run, though, you probably do need to keep that 7.

[chimaera]

Thanks for the response. So chem pistols are the way to go then? what sort of stat spread should i be focusing on? will this do?
3 str
10 dex
7 agility
3 const
10 per
3 will
4 intel

And would i choose all the same talents as a regular firearm pistol build? or do i need to specialise into psionics also?

I think if you are feeling squishy on an smg build, you will feel even squishier with 3 con on a chemical pistol build. On normal difficulty you don't need to min-max like that, and can go with a less "optimal" stat spread with higher constitution, just to get a few hps more.

I'd actually consider going with energy weapons and high intelligence (instead of dexterity). Base cost of a laser pistol shot is 15 ap now, so that is 3 shots per turn. But you can get more with temporal psi & adrenaline. Psycho-temporal contraction is a psi ability that provides an additional 15 ap for 2 turns, or if you take the psycho-temporal acceleration feat this increases to 20 ap for 3 turns. And this buff stacks with adrenaline, for a total of 90 ap for 3 turns. That is 6 shots with a laser pistol or 3 shots with an electroshock. At the same time, if you go for high intelligence and take the high technicalities feat asap, your base damage of energy weapons will be higher, and so will be your damage output. And if you take the psi pill for temporal, you might as well invest 35 points in methathermics and 45 in psychokinesis to get more crowd control (cryostasis, force field, electrokinesis, electrokinetic imprint).

For example:
str 3, dex 6 (for the grenadier feat), agi 3 (you can sneak even with 3 agi, because stealth is easy to raise with items), con 6 (for the fast metabolism feat), per 10, will 3, int 9
Use your level up stat points to raise per to 12 and and int to 13. 

This is by no means an optimal build. But I think going that way (instead of the classic high dex, 3 con build) might be easier if you feel the issue is that your character is too squishy. Psi provides crowd control, while high intelligence will make all crafting easy to raise (so you can craft yourself both mkv frag grenades and mkiii plasma). The ridiculous damage output on critical hits with plasma pistol will make one-shotting certain tough enemies easy. And if you invest in mercantile - you will likely become the richest person in Underrail.

[Ad Astra]

Thanks for the response. So chem pistols are the way to go then? what sort of stat spread should i be focusing on? will this do?
3 str
10 dex
7 agility
3 const
10 per
3 will
4 intel

And would i choose all the same talents as a regular firearm pistol build? or do i need to specialise into psionics also?

I think if you are feeling squishy on an smg build, you will feel even squishier with 3 con on a chemical pistol build. On normal difficulty you don't need to min-max like that, and can go with a less "optimal" stat spread with higher constitution, just to get a few hps more.

I'd actually consider going with energy weapons and high intelligence (instead of dexterity). Base cost of a laser pistol shot is 15 ap now, so that is 3 shots per turn. But you can get more with temporal psi & adrenaline. Psycho-temporal contraction is a psi ability that provides an additional 15 ap for 2 turns, or if you take the psycho-temporal acceleration feat this increases to 20 ap for 3 turns. And this buff stacks with adrenaline, for a total of 90 ap for 3 turns. That is 6 shots with a laser pistol or 3 shots with an electroshock. At the same time, if you go for high intelligence and take the high technicalities feat asap, your base damage of energy weapons will be higher, and so will be your damage output. And if you take the psi pill for temporal, you might as well invest 35 points in methathermics and 45 in psychokinesis to get more crowd control (cryostasis, force field, electrokinesis, electrokinetic imprint).

For example:
str 3, dex 6 (for the grenadier feat), agi 3 (you can sneak even with 3 agi, because stealth is easy to raise with items), con 6 (for the fast metabolism feat), per 10, will 3, int 9
Use your level up stat points to raise per to 12 and and int to 13. 

This is by no means an optimal build. But I think going that way (instead of the classic high dex, 3 con build) might be easier if you feel the issue is that your character is too squishy. Psi provides crowd control, while high intelligence will make all crafting easy to raise (so you can craft yourself both mkv frag grenades and mkiii plasma). The ridiculous damage output on critical hits with plasma pistol will make one-shotting certain tough enemies easy. And if you invest in mercantile - you will likely become the richest person in Underrail.

Just wanted to share similar build, which i'm currently playing.
It's like yours, but i take this 3 points from dex (you wont needed grenadier with this build) and put it to con, so you have around 100% crit even without ambush:
6% from pistol
30% from SI
15% from googles
10% from infused rathound
5% from hardcore chips
15% from focus steam
7% from recklessness
7% from scrutinous
total 95% garanteed crit in any circumstances, and, since you have premed electrokinesis, you can take PE for 100%, or just spec for 5 in recklessness. And in very tough encounters you can just have your full 9con health (around 400 on high levels hard+) in regen supersteel riot armor, with total 55% of crit (more if PE/spec Recklessnes route was chosen).

also i think you dont need 12 in per, 11 will be enough, so you can take scrutinous. You will have 16 int in the end, it's like more 110% total damage from specced high technicalities, which with 100% crit and around 800% crit damage will be enough to oneshot everything with laser shots. 14ap attacks from cyclone xbow is still better due to shock bolts stun, but you'll have little more damage (and it's energy damage), and psi with occasional flashbangs will cover all CC you need.

(a little bonus from 16 int - you will have so much skill points, so you can have all craft, hacking and mercantile, and also can afford utility psy, pesuasion and even evasion - this build is very skillpoint rich).

[chimaera]

@Ad Astra

My build is just theoretical, but yours sounds like lots of fun. The Gilbert Bates of Underrail.