Author Topic: crossbow/shotgun build advice  (Read 9009 times)

Elouen

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crossbow/shotgun build advice
« on: October 31, 2019, 06:26:14 pm »
hello there,

I want to make a build  with shotgun and crossbow to use. with some stealth and if its possible some traps  and if i take traps i think i want opportunist. i wantto craft a lot by the way
i want to play it on hard

Lv1

Strengh -5 for shotgun (should i put it to 6?)
Dex        -5 for marksman and maybe other stuff
agility     -7 for going fast and maybe some perks but i am not really sure
Con        -3 for points
Per         -10 for touching something
Will         -3  for not killing everyone with the sheer tremendous forces of our brain on pills
intel        -7  for making weapons of war with the sheer tremendous creativity of our brain

Going for marksman and opportunist

is those stats okay?

Should i go with versatility? or should i go with 160 with both stats? and if i go versatility wich one should i go main?

Should i upgrade tailoring and biology?

i think throw is not usefull for my char, if it is how much should i up it?

what are some important feats you think are good with that build?

Any other thought?

thanks by the way for your awnsers

Apostrophe

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Re: crossbow/shotgun build advice
« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2019, 01:24:28 am »
Have no experience with shotguns so take this with a grain of salt.

You can drop agility to 3 if you go 55 in Temporal Manipulation. Raise DEX to 7 for Grenadier and Quick Thinkering. Last two points probably into STR for Full-auto (not sure how good auto shotguns are).

You are just going to use special bolts with the crossbow and I don't think elemental damage scales with weapon skill, so you should be fine with Versatility and maxed guns skill if you don't attack from far away so accuracy becomes an issue. You still need 75 crossbow skill for feats.

You don't really need tailoring, you can buy great tabi boots and use Rathound/Phantom Dancer armor. Only go tailoring if you want a 100% crit chance with CON 9 and SI. You can safely skip biology with this build.

Trowing is always useful, place as much as you can up to, if I remember correctly, 123 effective skill for 90% accuracy 10 titles away.

Quick thinking, Grenadier, Premeditation, Increase Perception, Psycho-Temporal acceleration, and Versatility
For crossbow - Deadly snares, Marksman, Elemental Bolts and Critical power are core feats, Bowyer another great damage increase if you have free feats. Special Tactics is also really nice, you can stun 2 enemies with it and Premeditation+Electrokinesis for free. You can skip Aimed Shot.

No experience with shotguns so can't help you there. You probably need high volume, big spread shotgun to take care of spiders and similar enemies that can't be trapped or to finish up groups softened with grenades.

You also have some melee options like Expose weakness
« Last Edit: November 01, 2019, 01:37:04 am by Apostrophe »

cypherusuh

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Re: crossbow/shotgun build advice
« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2019, 01:49:42 am »
Agree with apostrophe. Auto shotgun is the way, ultra strong compared to normal shotgun. For primary skills, I think maxing crossbow and getting enough Guns for shortty perk is better. Crossbow has pretty bad accuracy overall, while shotgun will make due with Leading Shot, and even if it's missed your main target, it'll hit someone behind it

destroyor

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Re: crossbow/shotgun build advice
« Reply #3 on: November 01, 2019, 05:01:30 am »
Sorry this is going to be a very long post because this build pique my interest. I'm actually playing this exact build on dominating right now, with DC and expedition content untouched but done pretty much everything else.

First my build:
http://underrail.info.tm/build/?HgUFCwMNAwbCoEoPAADCoFMAAAAAfMKLMFp6AC1GRgAAUCs5wqMiwrAqJkcewo_ClsKYSzHCkMKkwrHCpeKnvgrit7AF378

Why 5 STR and not 7 STR?
I'm not using shotgun burst and I'm not getting Full-auto. 5 STR so I could use Vindicator shotgun

Why 5 DEX and not 6 DEX for Grenadier?
I suppose you could lower PER to 12 and drop a feat of your choice to get Grenadier. This is personal preference really. While playing my build I rarely have the chance or the need to use the same type of grenade twice. The battle is already over before grenade cooldown come into play.

Why AGI at 13? What's the point?
You need every last bit of MP to shell everyone in the face. Expert Sprint = 10 extra AP which is always useful for either an extra shell or an extra psi CC or pop medicine at 10 AP since I'm using bolt Quiver.

Con 3? Die a lot? Reload often?
Not really, I do die quite a few time to Death Stalkers but I considered that a given. Sometimes I do die when I play just a bit too aggressively (avoidable if I played it safe but I'm impatient sometimes). But I played the game so many times I would say I'm a veteran player. I will admit this is a glass cannon and newbie unfriendly build. If you want to use my build for your first run please play at normal or below and be prepare to abuse the reload button.

Psi hybrid at WIL 3?
That's fine as most of the psi abilities are use for crowd control (CC) and not for damage. ThermoD gets the job done at WIL 3 with only 70 base Metathermics along with shotgun shell damage.


Gear
Vindicator shotgun (short barrel, forward grip)
note: long barrel offer less damage + higher precision + narrower spread angle, not worth it because precision is great when you shell someone in the face at near melee range even when using short barrel. A wider spread angle is not a bad thing because that means more enemies are now under your shotgun's cone of fire. Shotgun Tube Extension - not bad but not great. Shotgun Choke = bad due to the exact same reasons as long barrel. Forward grip = great for non-combat shotgun as it lower 5AP per shot
Not using combat shotgun?
I'll explain this in more details below.

Scoped Pneumatic Cyclon Crossbow
Bolt Quiver
Infused Rathound Leather armor (mid ~ end game +11% crit chance)
Seeker googles (mid ~ end game, +18% or more crit chance, depends on your luck on component RNG roll)
Infused cave hopper tabi


On Dominating the first 9 level or so is a struggle because I couldn't afford a shotgun. For early game, Temporal distortion/grenade/SMG single shot will be your main damage output. This build really starts to get strong once you have enough money for a proper shotgun + ammo. At mid ~ late game it'll be one shot - one kill/multiple kills.


Why versatility?
Versatility is most effective when you can combine chem pistols w/ some other class (incendiary pistol for 2 turn fear, acid pistol for entanglement, Cooked shot ignore evasion and is AOE). However, my build doesn't have enough ability points for DEX to use chem pistols effectively. Crossbow is a great choice w/ shotgun for 1 turn stun using Shock bolt (MKIII) with no cooldown, and incapacitation using tranquilizer darts. Incendiary bolt seems great on paper but in my experience the fire and its fear effect doesn't proc often enough to justify the lost utility slot.
I took 15 base Crossbow skill for Marksman. Around mid game I was able to fire my crossbow @14 AP (Scoped Pneumatic Cyclon Crossbow, bolt quiver) - you don't really care about crossbow damage; you just want the special bolt to hit using as little AP as possible.


Psi setup explanation:
0 Thought Control - WIL is too low to use TC
45 Psychokinesis - Force Field, Electrokinesis, Disruptive Field, Electrokinetic Imprint are all important CC skills
70 Metathermics - Cryokinesis extreme range sniping + incendiary grenade area denial is a lifesaver early game (you'll eventually abandon this tactic once you have a proper shotgun). Cryostasis is a very important CC skill because it's silent and works on enemy under second wind (stun immune). Thermodynamic Destabilization (ThermoD) is one of my main damage dealer, more on this later. Cryo-shield is very good against melee (annoying dogs, pit bulls, crawlers, death crawlers, knifers) and can put out the fire when you are burning. Exothermic Aura is pretty much mandatory against expedition spiders. My shotgun build need every last bit of mobility and you can't afford to be webbed (immune to webbed for 4 turns).
70 Temporal Manipulation - LTI and Psycho-temporal Contraction (PTC) is pretty standard and require no explanation. Stasis is a great CC, offensive and defensive skill all in one. You can use Stasis to take one enemy out of the fight for 2 turns. You can Stasis an enemy w/ Pseudo-spatial Projection (PSP) and strip it of PSP while it's under stasis. You can net/EMP a stasis enemy (95% chance too regardless of target's evasion provided you have high enough effective throwing). PTC lasts 2 turns and adrenaline shot lasts 3 turns. On the turn when PTC is about to expire you can use every last bit of AP until you have 15 AP left, Stasis yourself, wait 2 turns and extend your max AP by another turn. The enemies are usually group around you for a convenience ThermoD finish too. Important skill/psi ability is on cooldown and can't be use? LTI + Stasis. What I'm trying to say is Stasis is worth it for the extra 15 skill points investment.


Why Kneecap shot?
Mostly for use around early ~ mid game when your shotgun shot isn't powerful enough yet for 1 shot = 1 kill without the powerup from Sixth Shot. Shock bolt + melee range Kneecap shot = 1 dead enemy standing. Late game you can use this to kite tough melee enemy (Balor, any sledgehammer npc using metal armor, Burrower warrior, etc.), allowing you to ignore them while you concentrate on other enemies.


Comments on Shotgun feats:
Sixth Shot is the most powerful shotgun feats, period. With max specialization your sixth shot now gain 200% BONUS damage on top of the original, usually critical damage

Why take Barrel Stare and Leading Shot together? Aren't they mutually exclusive?
No they are not. At least for my build it's not. Barrel Stare is to ensure a shotgun shell to the face at melee range is lethal. Leading Shot is use to deal w/ high evasion enemies and to help trigger ThermoD.

Why no burst feat like Full Auto?
You don't need to use burst. Combat Shotgun burst = 50AP and while it does delete enemies it's not really AP efficient. One single 20p Shotgun Shell shot from a Vindicator shotgun (short barrel, forward grip) is like a mini burst at mid range and only cost 20AP. At close to melee range one shell is usually enough to delete a single target provided you choose the correct shell loadout.

What's the correct shell loadout?
20p is the prefer shell choice because each individual pellet has its own chance to hit and crit. More pellet = more chance to hit/crit. Also Vindicator is the shotgun with the lowest min damage and highest max damage. More pellet = higher chance of at least one pellet reaching max damage. 20p is weak against heavily armor target (read: high mech resist, mech threshold is usually not a problem when you have high crit chance + bonus crit damage).

12p is my least favorite ammo as it fire less pellets than 20p while doesn't really offer any significant advantage.

6p is my prefer choice of ammo against heavily armor target because 1. you can buy this in bulk 2. It ignore 30% of mech damage resist which is usually good enough already. 3. it fires more pellet than 3p, see above on why more pellet = better.

3p does have its use but it's rare, expensive, and heavy. It can proc daze (1st shot), and stun (2nd shot on dazed target) but I rarely use them. You should use this against the final boss tho as it ignore 50% mech resist.

Update: now that I've tackle expedition, you should use 3p against crabs and strongman.

Math-wise you can see the damage difference too:
20p = 20 pellets * 6% shotgun damage = 120% shotgun damage
12p = 12 pellets * 9% shotgun damage = 108% shotgun damage
6p = 6 pellets * 15% shotgun damage = 90% shotgun damage
3p = 3 pellets * 25% shotgun damage = 75% shotgun damage
Of course this is only referencing the raw damage before mech threshold/resist calculation but it's also an important data point to consider.

As a side note my build can also use leper poison/corrosive acid bolt to lower a target's mech resist.

Fragmented Chaos - great, must have for all shotgun build along w/ Sixth Shot

Pellet Mayhem - very good feat because you must remember each pellets has its own individual chance to crit. When using 20p shell you'll notice your crit chance directly translate to number of pellets criting. This is also why Body horror is actually a good feat for 3 WIL shotgun build.

Perfect Scattering - absolutely useless in my opinion. Even at 2 points of damage using 20P shell that's only 40 extra damage. Even if it's add to the base damage, which I'm not sure it's, w/ a crit chance of say, 50%, and a crit damage bonus of say, 175% and at sixth shell (200% bonus damage) the extra damage is only (20+20*275%)300% = 225 damage for a precious feat slot. Worst case scenario: 3p, 1 points of damage per pellet, no sixth shot bonus = (2+1*275%) = 5 extra damage.  There are many other better feats out there. I would recommend avoiding it.



How to use:
I have around 47% critical chance (from gear) starting from mid game without using any food or drugs. Hardcore chip +5% crit chance. Body horror +3% crit chance. Focus stim +15% crit chance. Total crit chance = 70% + (3% ~ 12% from pellet mayhem). My first shell to the face using 20p usually deal around 400 damage (after mech threshold/resist/miss calculations) to a target. Once Six Shell buff is up I have seen as high as 1.7k damage. You see a crowd, thermoD, stand 4 tiles away from the target (with 3 tile of empty space between you and the target. You can check and see you need 30MP to move and stand besides the target). 1 or 2 shotgun shells should blow up the target. Follow up w/ grenade if required. This build has shit load of psi CC options so you do need to watch out and manage your psi pool. Stasis + Force Field are your panic buttons. Abuse line of sight. You can trigger a mini burst per shell when you stand 1 tile away from your closest target but you'll lose the barrel stare bonus. I find this build is pretty strong and perform the same, if not better, than my 5AP per punch psi-monk build. Only my pure psi builds are undeniably stronger than this build.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2019, 11:34:14 pm by destroyor »

Elouen

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Re: crossbow/shotgun build advice
« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2019, 03:11:53 pm »
thanks for everyone for their helps, i think im gonna enjoy this, and wow what a build!

wanted to ask you, what do you think about having 160 in crossbow and then versatility for shotgun? could you still use the shotgun or it would be  usseless

 i love that use of methathermics, i think im gonna drop my Xbow and take that build.  by the way, you got something like no lockpicking nor hacking, yet i would like to (since its my first playthroug ) but it looks really fun, if im in hard i will probably drop mercantil and get some hack on the way^^

by the way, were could i get a shotgun early on the game?

destroyor

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Re: crossbow/shotgun build advice
« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2019, 09:37:48 pm »
Marksman only need 15 crossbow.
Sixth Shell need 20 guns; Barrel Stare need 50 guns; Leading shot need 35 guns; Fragment chaos need 70 guns; Pallet Mayhem needs 40 guns.

So no I wouldn't recommend you max crossbow and versatility guns. The only benefit would be a slightly easier early game where you could rely on your crossbow but you need to spend (70 - 15 =) 55 more skill points, plus your shotgun shell will do less damage due to a lower effective guns skill.

To get a shotgun early game would be to hunt for shotgun components from Junkyard + SGS vendors. Game at lower difficulty might be more forgiving so that you could afford both the shotgun and its shells.

Shredded Cheddar

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Re: crossbow/shotgun build advice
« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2019, 10:54:09 pm »
Hi Destroyer

I thought about making a build very similar to this just minus the crossbow parts, in order to get off 2 combat shotgun bursts per turn, for 2 turns. However, in practice, 1 shotgun burst on dominating, plus 2 shots from a regular shotgun tends to do the job just fine, and in the early game I simply use small-medium caliber smgs for unarmored targets and kiting / temporal distortion to deal with armored enemies. This saves you tons of money in the early game, and you can basically get to junkyard using very minimal supplies.

Also, due to leading shot I don't see why on your build you would want to drop 1 per, +1 dex and grab grenadier. That double nade the first two turns is ridiculously powerful with crafted nades. And if you decide to drop agi down to a reasonable 6 for sprint only, you could do something like have 10 con, or have 18 per, or whatever the hell else you wanted. It's just really hard for me to justify having agi at 13 just like its hard for me to justify con 12 - they unlock some pretty sweet expert feats, but over the course of the game the extra points elsewhere are just going to be so much more impactful. If you know what you're doing (and I know you do) you won't be taking much damage or evading anyway because you can alpha strike/disable basically everything anyway. And between sprint, tabi, PtC, jumping bean, you have more than enough mobility to shell everyone you need....

destroyor

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Re: crossbow/shotgun build advice
« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2019, 12:22:06 am »
@Shredded Cheddar
Yes I agree It's a perfectly viable choice to drop 1 PER, +1 DEX and grab grenadier, and double nade first two turns (with LTI) is ridiculously powerful w/ grenadier. However like I said earlier this is a personal choice for me - usually I don't really need that second nade to finish the fight as ThermoD already taken the role of a second nade already in turn 1.

Re: AGI 13 and combat shotgun burst - I have played so many burst (AR, SMG) and Survival Instinct (SI) builds I sort of want to go a different approach with this shotgun play through. From a pure damage perspective it is objectively better to go 9 or even 10 CON for Survival Instinct and scout every map under stealth (due to always at or below 30% health) for alpha strike by manually starting combat. To be honest I'm a bit tired of that style of gameplay. With 13 AGI and max evasion I can skip the scouting part and just charge in + play very aggressively (0 use of traps except for that fight in Foundry and early game/caltrops, go for kill instead of using AP to disable unless I absolutely have to). I can now just charge in, prioritize killing psi, melee and snipers while knowing I'm safe from SMG, AR and grenades. It's sort of refreshing to not have to think too much on how to alpha strike/control everyone and everything. With so much MP I can shell everyone in the face and still have enough MP to run back and hide behind a corner/terrain. It's nice I can stand out in the open and still know I'm safe from range attack due to my max evasion and running outside their weapon's optimal range.

TL:DR - my shotgun build is the way it's because I want to try to play in a different style. I'm not saying my way is "the" way or the "best" way but I can confidently say it's viable on dominating.

cypherusuh

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Re: crossbow/shotgun build advice
« Reply #8 on: November 02, 2019, 09:11:57 am »
Bit late, but earliest shotgun you could get is from Armory's weapon persuasion. Need 20 effective for shoddy shotgun. Crafting your own shotgun is pretty damn expensive,  I think it was around 800-1200 SGS credit, it also need quite a high mechanic

Elouen

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Re: crossbow/shotgun build advice
« Reply #9 on: November 02, 2019, 09:41:59 pm »
i got one last question for yoour build, is evasion a must have for hard?

destroyor

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Re: crossbow/shotgun build advice
« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2019, 11:08:32 pm »
No it's not a must but it's sort of a waste not to w/ AGI 13.

If you don't want evasion, here's a more conventional build w/ lockpicking and hacking:
http://underrail.info.tm/build/?HgUGBgkLAwbCoEUPAAAAZ05DAAB8woswWnoALUZGAABQKznCoyIWKsKwHsKPwpZiS8KYMcKQwqTCtcKH4qe-CuK3sAXfvw

This version gain a huge critical chance=damage buff from Survival Instinct compare to the AGI 13 version but you have to stay at or below 30% health for this bonus. Another feature of this version is Grenadier meaning one damage (Frag/HE, usually Frag) per turn for the first two turn if you use LTI. Ideally you should scout the area under stealth to get a rough idea of terrain layout and enemies' location before manually starting combat. You should play more defensively due less MP and no evasion. Abuse line of sight, hide behind doors/corner/force field and make enemies come to you instead of straight charging in. MP is much, much lower so make sure you craft and use jumping bean along w/ sprint, PTC and high grade tabi. The last feat Psycho-temporal acceleration (PTA) is just icing on the cake and could be switch w/ Opportunist. PTA = more lasting power; Opportunist = 25% additional damage to stunned/incapaciated enemy + 15% slow (kneecap shot) enemy.

Enchat

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Re: crossbow/shotgun build advice
« Reply #11 on: November 09, 2019, 11:56:30 am »
Hey Destroyor, have you tried your build on dominationg? It looks interesting, but it seems to me that you have too low skill on a crossbow and for most targets, there will be a chance of hitting around 60%.

Fenix

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Re: crossbow/shotgun build advice
« Reply #12 on: November 09, 2019, 05:56:32 pm »
Quote
Why take Barrel Stare and Leading Shot together? Aren't they mutually exclusive?
No they are not. At least for my build it's not. Barrel Stare is to ensure a shotgun shell to the face at melee range is lethal. Leading Shot is use to deal w/ high evasion enemies and to help trigger ThermoD.

Well, if you get +20% damage and lose 20% thc then net oucome is 0 as I understand. And on Dominating it could be more than 20% thc.

destroyor

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Re: crossbow/shotgun build advice
« Reply #13 on: November 09, 2019, 08:02:07 pm »
Hey Destroyor, have you tried your build on dominationg? It looks interesting, but it seems to me that you have too low skill on a crossbow and for most targets, there will be a chance of hitting around 60%.

Yes like I said I'm playing it on dominating right now. My crossbow hit chance when focused (shoot before moving) is around 8x ~ 9x%. It's true I only get around 6x ~ 7x% crossbow THC when not focused.


Quote
Why take Barrel Stare and Leading Shot together? Aren't they mutually exclusive?
No they are not. At least for my build it's not. Barrel Stare is to ensure a shotgun shell to the face at melee range is lethal. Leading Shot is use to deal w/ high evasion enemies and to help trigger ThermoD.

Well, if you get +20% damage and lose 20% thc then net oucome is 0 as I understand. And on Dominating it could be more than 20% thc.

It's not as straightforward as that. For low evasion enemies (metal armor npc, crab, industrial bot, etc) it's not an auto -20% THC at close to melee range. Even when you shell a high evasion enemy in the face the missed pellets will usually hit some other enemies behind your main target. Barrel Stare is well worth the extra feat slot even when you have Leading Shot.

Fenix

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Re: crossbow/shotgun build advice
« Reply #14 on: November 10, 2019, 03:51:43 pm »
Well, if only for those without evasion.
I'm not impressed by it to be honest.
Feels situational.