Protectorate vs Free Drones from RP perspective? (Spoilers)

[harperfan7]

Oppressive rule with Iron fist but alive, relatively safe and fed.

If they don't kill you.  They kill a lot of innocent people.  And some people would rather be dead than slaves.  The protectorate exists just a train ride north; if people fear for their lives in the south they can move up and join it.  Or go to the embassy or apogee; maybe they'd guarantee safety on the way north to join. 

[destroyor]

I'm pretty sure you don't just "move up and join the north" when you are a commoner. Just like in real life, a commoner living in one of the ex-Soviet bloc country don't just move up and join USA/Canada/Western European country/wherever.

Protectorate would kill anyone they consider a threat, true. But I'm sure the dead count isn't low due to FD's reckless methods and collateral damage. I can see at least some positive outcome if the player decided to change Protectorate from within. However, if the player (which is really a one-man army tipping the scale of balance heavily) help FD win by topping Protectorate I can foresee massive amount of bloodshed - from the conflict/revolution between Protectorate/FD; endless opportunistic raids by bandits; famine and social disorders due to collapse of Protectorate; internal struggle for power between any remaining ex-Protectorate force; struggle for dominance for any power consider themselves the successor for Protectorate, etc, etc. Basically a repeat of BioCorp's collapse - only this time it's not a slow decline but a sudden, violent one which is much worst.

Of course charming comrades, fighting for a cause and sticking it to the man beat all that, right?

[harperfan7]

People move from town to town in the south all the time.  I don't think there's any berlin wall kind of situation.

[chimaera]

Oppressive rule with Iron fist but alive, relatively safe and fed.

I'm interested to see evidence of CAU being incompetent. I always get the impressive from talking to npc within Fort Apogee that CAU is effective but outright evil.

Living under an iron fist regime is not safe. You just don't hear about the evil that happens unless it happens to you or someone close to you, because the information flow is tighly controlled and censored, so most of it you learn by word of mouth. (I'm from the Eastern bloc myself and old enough to have experienced both communism and democracy.)

And the protectorate quest shows that they don't give a damn about the safety of UR citizens either. They know exactly how volatile and dangerous the mutagen is, yet they choose this weapon to attempt to destroy the drones, despite the risk it poses to civilians in Underrail. Why would you put civilians at risk (the drones hideout is right next to Rail Crossing, from what I remember), when a few dreadnoughts would do the same job? And the CAU don't even manage to finish the job properly, because you will meet FD mutants afterwards, which means some survived. (Now wouldn't it be ironic if someone in the FD would end up with the same mutation as Wyatt in the junkyard?)
So yes, that's being incompetent in my book.


edit: corrections, because English isn't my first language and
is not always easy to communicate what I mean, sorry

[Tamior]

Protectorate is just a government. As any government, they have both authoritarian and more democratic tendencies. However, what you really need to understand here, is that the *really bad* tendencies in protectorate (i.e. chemical assault unit) exist and flourish specifically because free drones exist and do what they do. Essentially, free drones are the reason for chemical assault units continued existence.

Consider how incompetent the CAU is I doubt it. I find it more likely they try to be the next biocorp, but they lack the brainpower to achieve this.

Protectorate isn't trying to be biocorp. Like, at all. They formed and exist literally as an internal rebellion against second biocorp.

[Tamior]

Oppressive rule with Iron fist but alive, relatively safe and fed.

I'm interested to see evidence of CAU being incompetent. I always get the impressive from talking to npc within Fort Apogee that CAU is effective but outright evil.

Living under an iron fist regime is not safe. You just don't hear about the evil that happens unless it happens to you or someone close to you, because the information flow is tighly controlled and censored, so most of it you learn by word of mouth. (I'm from the Eastern bloc myself and old enough to have experienced both communism and democracy.)

And the protectorate quest shows that they don't give a damn about the safety of UR citizens either. They know exactly how volatile and dangerous the mutagen is, yet they choose this weapon to attempt to destroy the drones, despite the risk it poses to civilians in Underrail. Why would you put civilians at risk (the drones hideout is right next to Rail Crossing, from what I remember), when a few dreadnoughts would do the same job? And the CAU don't even manage to finish the job properly, because you will meet FD mutants afterwards, which means some survived. (Now wouldn't it be ironic if someone in the FD would end up with the same mutation as Wyatt in the junkyard?)
So yes, that's being incompetent in my book.

CAU achieved exactly what they wanted too: completely wiped out FD cell in a way that "sends a message". Collateral damage to non-protectorate assets and personal was never an issue.
Thus, no, they are not incompetent. They did exactly what they were sent to do.

And, again, CAU draws it's legitimacy from the actions of FD themselves. The two literally enable each other via their methods.

As for Protectorate being "iron fist regime that's not really safe ", that's just an unverified assumption without some actual statistical data comparing protectorate-run territories to their neighbors.

[chimaera]

CAU achieved exactly what they wanted too: completely wiped out FD cell in a way that "sends a message". Collateral damage to non-protectorate assets and personal was never an issue.
Thus, no, they are not incompetent. They did exactly what they were sent to do.

And, again, CAU draws it's legitimacy from the actions of FD themselves. The two literally enable each other via their methods.

As for Protectorate being "iron fist regime that's not really safe ", that's just an unverified assumption without some actual statistical data comparing protectorate-run territories to their neighbors.

Except that they didn't wipe the drones out completely. Mutants aren't some mindless creatures, as shown in the expedition; they are capable of organizing themselves and - obviously - fighting. Who knows what exactly survived that attack - after all, the main feature of the mutagen is that it's so unpredicatable. So yes, the CAU is incompetent.

And what message does this action send to the civilians of Underrail, pray do tell? We've managed to destroy the drone hideout. Btw, the Underrail passages are now inhabited not only by random gangs of various lowlife, but also by dangerous mutants. You're welcome.

As for lacking any real knowledge about the protectorate, this goes for the CAU too. You can try to explain their existance through the drones, but the protectorate could be lying through their teeth about the extent of CAU's activitites and targets, and you wouldn't know any better. It might be that the drones are not even their main target. What are the experiments on the mutant bodies in the junkyard for, for example?

[Exterminator]

Protectorate isn't trying to be biocorp. Like, at all. They formed and exist literally as an internal rebellion against second biocorp.

Protectorate doesn't shy from the traditions of the good ol' Biocorp, though.
Like gassing people with dangerous mutagens.

[Tamior]

Except that they didn't wipe the drones out completely. Mutants aren't some mindless creatures, as shown in the expedition; they are capable of organizing themselves and - obviously - fighting. Who knows what exactly survived that attack - after all, the main feature of the mutagen is that it's so unpredicatable. So yes, the CAU is incompetent.

By exactly the same logic, ANY way of dealing with FD has potential to backfire. But as a matter-of-fact, it hasn't. So CAU HAS achieved their immediate goal.

And what message does this action send to the civilians of Underrail, pray do tell? We've managed to destroy the drone hideout. Btw, the Underrail passages are now inhabited not only by random gangs of various lowlife, but also by dangerous mutants. You're welcome.

As if CAU views infestation of non-allied territories with dangerous mutants as a BAD thing. Hint: they don't.

As for lacking any real knowledge about the protectorate, this goes for the CAU too. You can try to explain their existance through the drones, but the protectorate could be lying through their teeth about the extent of CAU's activitites and targets, and you wouldn't know any better. It might be that the drones are not even their main target. What are the experiments on the mutant bodies in the junkyard for, for example?

No matter how bad Protectorate is at it's core, actions of FD legitimize the existence e of CAU.

[chimaera]

Except that they didn't wipe the drones out completely. Mutants aren't some mindless creatures, as shown in the expedition; they are capable of organizing themselves and - obviously - fighting. Who knows what exactly survived that attack - after all, the main feature of the mutagen is that it's so unpredicatable. So yes, the CAU is incompetent.

By exactly the same logic, ANY way of dealing with FD has potential to backfire. But as a matter-of-fact, it hasn't. So CAU HAS achieved their immediate goal.

No, it doesn't, because conventional weaponry doesn't carry the same risk as mutagen usage. It's literally an unpredictable weapon; you don't know what comes out crawling when you use it. If you talk to the protectorate doctor in the oh-so-secret junkyard hideout, their research into the mutagen seems very basic and nowhere near the biocorp level. It's possible they don't even know that someone like Wyatt can be the result.
You might consider this achieving a goal, I consider this being incompetent.

I also disagree this is all about the drones. No government stockpiles dangerous biological weaponry because of some terrorist groups. They all stockpile it to use against each other.

usage of propaganda to pit factions against one another (did you people notice how many P. propaganda listings are there in Omega station?).

How the hell did this never occur to me?

There is another small tidbit concering the oddities. The ones that you find in the first quest (border guard orders) talk of a bounty placed specifically on Gorsky by the omega leadership. And during the eels vs. scrappers showdown Gorsky  tells you that he has been to the north and that the protectorate would kill him (and likely Ezra) if they could.

[Vokial]

No matter how bad Protectorate is at it's core, actions of FD legitimize the existence e of CAU.

Siding with the Protectorate on this purely for roleplaying as a sadist nazi-evil scientist or whatever is fine I guess, but please don't masquarade this as the choice of the good guys.
That can never be proper reasoning, for if FD were not legit before, CAU hereby legitimize them. That step is the one they have to avoid at all cost. They should do it by the book, with tools of order and the ideology they want to represent. And that was totally an option. Instead they employ methods of ruthless bio-terrorism that's not just way over the point, but completely unnecessary. Having the option to choose weaponry that only affect FD, they intentionally go for the mutagen and corrupt the whole land and civil population. It's not even collateral damage, it was their well thought out choice out of all available options. They are like children desperate to look for oppurtunities to try out their new toys (that should not even exist), just because they can. Pitiful. Weapons like this should never be in the hands of completely unresponsible people that use them for the sake of being able to use them.
And the ordacity to explain this as just actions, blame it on FD while it was them who decided to do things the worst way is atrocious. Explain that to the innocent who fell victim, they surely did not get killed by FD, but the Protectorate, always posing as the saviors of civilisation. Still, what baffles me the most is that there are people who can be fooled by this. IRL. Having proper education, living in relative prosperity and in the 21st century.

[Tamior]

No, it doesn't, because conventional weaponry doesn't carry the same risk as mutagen usage.

Conventional weaponry also wouldn't have allowed to wipe FD hideout without any direct combat.
As an added benefit, anyone who comes later to investigate what happen at the hideout is ALSO likely to get killed/mutated.
So using mutagen against FD had both potential positive and negative sides to it.
Anyway, at the end of the day, you have to show how the use of mutagen has actually backfired against CAU/Protectorate directly. Now how it "could have" backfired.
And not how it "backfires in the long run". Because that's just "more work for CAU" --  something CAU is only too happy about.

[Tamior]

No matter how bad Protectorate is at it's core, actions of FD legitimize the existence e of CAU.

Siding with the Protectorate on this purely for roleplaying as a sadist nazi-evil scientist or whatever is fine I guess, but please don't masquarade this as the choice of the good guys.
That can never be proper reasoning, for if FD were not legit before, CAU hereby legitimize them. That step is the one they have to avoid at all cost.

That's exactly what I'm saying: CAU and FD legitimize each other via their methods. It's a vicious circle, if you will.
Both sides are equally bad for using such methods. If you want to be technical, FD were the first to strike (against civilian) when they destroyed Epione lab.
Also, you seem to imply that Protectorate is a unified entity with no special interest groups within. That's not the case: CAU (and special services in general) actually WANT to operate in a way allows them to report "a job well done" on the surface of it, but actually proliferates the existence of organization like FD in the long-term. Because the more of these there are, the more funding/power CAU (and special services in general) get.

[Vokial]

They not legitimizes each other at all. How can CAU legitimize them killing civilians with FD? "Sorry, I know you're innocent, but let me execute you because the existence of some other group you have nothing to do with" - that's rich. Also, while Protectorate is posing as protectors of civilisation, FD are at least has an honest approach. The attack on the lab fits into their agenda, while the CAU is against everything what the Protectorate tries to resemble towards the public.
And I have to come back to the reasoning of my previous post, Protectorate had all the means of defeating FD with legitim ways without civilian causalties and nobody would've question their PR machine. Yet they choose to try out mutagen on the public. The fact that both would result in victory yet they went for the option that involves unnecessary massacre, clearly says how much they care about the people.
FD and Protectorate could only legitimize each other if the latter was only rivals, but essentially the same kind of group as FD. Protectorate however decieves the public, pose as a helping hand then betrays them and kill them. In a way, FD was more useful for them then a setback as antagonizing FD certainly helps pushing their false propaganda through. They could blame them as the root of all evil, even the ones themselves are causing. Zero responsibility.

[Tamior]

They not legitimizes each other at all. How can CAU legitimize them killing civilians with FD? "Sorry, I know you're innocent, but let me execute you because the existence of some other group you have nothing to do with" - that's rich.

Let me stop you right there: what "civilians" exactly were killed by CAU?