Protectorate vs Free Drones from RP perspective? (Spoilers)

[Richter]

I think the topic is pretty rich and interesting, so if I may...

There is a THEORY (which I don't necessarily hold for true) which is that Anastasia's condition is actually the result of the CAU methods. More precisely, we do not see any Drones employ chemical weaponery during their questline and it seems to be fairly rare (to the point that the acid puddles near Terry Baker's corpse is a strong enough clue for your character to suspect Cornell and his gang and accuse him during your conversation with him eventhough other conversations may point to his responsability as well : at first we do NOT know about the Baker's involvement concerning the Cube) and Anastasia refuse to express her opinion on the CAU.

They may be two main reasons for this :
- The first one, maybe not the most likely but still worth mentionning, is that it is actually the CAU's strikeback during the Free Drones' train assault that has caused her injuries ;
- The second one may be that she disapproves CAU methods because of her own condition eventhough CAU holds no responsabiliy in it.

The second point is the most likely, but it reminds us that most Union citizens and most Protectorate soldiers we have the opportunity to speak with strongly disapprove such methods except some xenophobic military members such as Fraser. It is something to seize power but it is another matter to keep it, and for the latter people's approval seems vital. CAU sure don't give Protectorate a good publicity and indeed the Free Drones demise or rather the methods employed are not made public as we can see receiving our paiement from Fraser. So it may backlash on them at some point.

Most of the plot, but maybe I did misinterpret the author's intention, points out that either Protectorate's brutal methods and Free Drones' fanatism derive were bound to happen. Eiden tells us that Free Drones respond to an essential human need and would reappear on another form if they were eradicated while Tanner explains that an organisation such as the Protectorate had to exist at some points. The more we explore the game, the more we're told that we have to see through the veil of our own physical limitations so the truth mostly concerning the Godmen and another "plane" of existence should be our main concern.

But still, I would side with the Protectorate, were it inherently evil, and were meant to be reformed or dislocated latter, would it nevertheless permits the construction of some sort of civilized and secure nation has we can assume from the multiple sources of information about the North. So maybe CAU has to be seen as the lesser evil regarding Underrail geopolitical context.

[Tayon]

The best answer to this question is in the dialogues of Marcus and Ladelman. Just get to the Expedition and listen. You will learn a lot about the differences in living standards, child mortality and many other factors between the North (which is under the control of the Protectorate) and the South. The best illustration of what southern freedom worth.
Not to mention the situation with the raiders. Balor is besieging the second largest and richest city in South Underrail, and for a long time. The Railway Crossroads is threatened with death under bandit hordes. Nevertheless, trains run between these settlements, and it is very easy to transfer reinforcements to them. The only problem is that there is no organization that could send them. Each city of South Underrail stands (or dies) alone.

It's not like the Protectorate is good. Rather, he is a lesser evil.

[Vokial]

CAU is something that is fundamentally evil, in it's essence there can never be a good use of it. Even if there's a land that is currently being inhabited by "bad people" in their terms, there's nothing wrong with the land on it's own. That can be put to good use later. But Protectorate being so selfish, if they encounter a territory that they can't seize, they are even willing to intentionally make another Depot A out of it. If they can't have it, nobody can, not even it's original residents. Think of the message that carries. No sane government should offer somthing like that, for it is not a deal but a threat. And certainly not offer it on foreign territory.
Stepping into areas that already have their own problems and be the laughing third, offering security to one side in exchange for complete power over them. That is not help - that's exploitation. This should always be rejected and fought against. Freedom before everything, if there's a way to solve an unstable situation, solution should always be something that leaves freedom, otherwise it doesn't worth it and can lead to being oppressed under something much worse than some petty bandits, something that has more control and fighting against it will be a lot more difficult - for there won't be fighters anymore, only slaves. And then it might be too late.
The lands own fighters are what the Protectorate goes up against. Either disarming them by diplomatic means (Rail Crossing, Junkyard) or force (Free Drones). You want to help, that's great. Get to know the area, meet the people. See the leaders - some are bandits trying to taking advantage of the chaos and abuse power, some are sensible people wishing for a peaceful and sustainable prosperity. Pick some and just support THOSE if you so want to interfere. But not by means of military force. Don't make a third side and try to outgun and outsource the others and take control profiting from the chaos and helplessness.

"But they are the lesser evil" - that's EXACTLY what they want you to make your choice based on. They want you to acknowledge their evil and recieve it while agreeing with it, convincing yourself that it is the right way. From that point, you give up the control over you and they are free to exploit you however they want. And if you end up not liking it, you'll be untrustworthy and unresponsible, biting the hand that feeds, being treated way too good for your own sake and deserve punishment. That's the scenario they're speculating, not supporting or making you get stronger yourself, but demonizing the other options, installing fear while making you believe that they are your only choice so you willingly accept their terms, position yourself under them and bend over. Are they evil? Then they're just another threat. Sure they're the lesser? I'm not even convinced about that.
Free Drones doesn't offer a future, but they never said they are and that's not even their purpose in their current state. They just realized the danger earlier than others and now fully focus their attention on solving only that - alone and against all odds. Understood that proper restructuring can only come afterwards when it's not done while having to constantly holding against the invaders. And it's not like they can just rise from underground and join hands with SGS (who were stupid and snobbish enough to leave Junkyard to the tin cans being afraid to be on the same page of even a local gang despite those being the only organization there) or some other local commune that are somewhat sensibly governed. Nobody would accept FD for by doing so would invoke the wrath of the Protectorate. And they are being present everywhere. Deploying soldiers are the first thing they want in exchange for any assistance as it is displayed in several examples through the game. But some doesn't want their troops in, is that a problem? Don't even want to help now? If you're so nice as you say, just give them supplies what's the problem? You don't want them being strong on their own, in their own country? Nooooo, that's the least thing they ever want.

Free Drones are a group that are willing to defend their right of freedom by their guns if needed and for that, they are considered terrorists, in their own country, labeled by the invaders from another. Treated as anarchists, but who said that FD wants chaos, or even to get rid of the oppressors in the favor of the bandits? Are they work on their behalf? Hell no. They want the same thing as the people, just not under Protectorate rule, not by their vile methods and certainly not for the price they ask.

[Tayon]

CAU is something that is fundamentally evil, in it's essence there can never be a good use of it. Even if there's a land that is currently being inhabited by "bad people" in their terms, there's nothing wrong with the land on it's own. That can be put to good use later.

Did anyone even talk about the task of "taking the land"? Underrail is full of unclaimed land. The task was to destroy Free Drones by any means with minimal losses. And it was done.

But Protectorate being so selfish, if they encounter a territory that they can't seize, they are even willing to intentionally make another Depot A out of it. If they can't have it, nobody can, not even it's original residents. Think of the message that carries. No sane government should offer somthing like that, for it is not a deal but a threat.

Should I remind you of the nuclear present for Hiroshima and Nagasaki in real history? Does it make America "evil"?
From my point of view, somehow not. It is normal for a country, any country, to do anything to protect the interests of itself and its citizens.
Of course, such actions cannot be considered acceptable in our time. But then they simply corresponded to the cruelty of the era. And the current era of Underrail is no less cruel. Sad but true.

And certainly not offer it on foreign territory.

There is no "foreign territory" outside the boundaries of cities in South Underrail. It does not belong to anyone, and this is the whole problem. No one cares about raiders until they are so impudent that they raid settlements. No one controls the number of mutants.
If the cities of southern Underrail had come to an agreement and established some kind of ranger structure, at least half of the need for the Protectorate would have disappeared. Or maybe there would be no need for it at all.

The message that this intimidation action contained could not be intended for any specific South Underdale force. It is more likely for the people as a whole. "Do not dare to act against us or face the same fate."
Even the choice of weapons of execution was not a matter of effectiveness. It was a matter of impression.
I read somewhere that executions in the Middle Ages were so spectacular because people were used to death. The usual death was not to scare them. The people of Underrail are the same ... but this shit should even get through them.

And yes, of course, this is hideous. What did you expect? Politics at any time is shit, but the politics of people with a medieval mentality and weapons of mass destruction is a huge deep shitty swamp. In your opinion, was the demolition of the fortress something better?

Free Drones doesn't offer a future, but they never said they are and that's not even their purpose in their current state. They just realized the danger earlier than others and now fully focus their attention on solving only that - alone and against all odds.

You romanticize them. They are just a bunch of nihilists that just want to destroy the current structure and do not offer anything to replace it.
Yes, they have damn good reasons, I don't argue. If they were guys like Gorsky, who, despite all the hatred for the Protectorate, are building something of their own, I would love to join them. But they are not.

As for life without a power structure, I will again refer you to the conversations of Marcus and Ladelman. Ladelman almost brags a sister who works as a whore since adolescence. Seriously, the most hideous thing here is not the situation itself, but the routine with which Ladelman perceives it. His sister sells her body for survival - and that's fine. Most Junkyard women live like that. Ladelman's mom was no exception.
Also add pratically absent medicine, child mortality, deaths from illness, food poisoning (barrel soup, you know) and starvation... And raiders with mutants outside the settlements, just like a cherry on a cake.

You know, if I really lived in Underrail, I would have sold my soul even to Leviathan so that my friends, family, and even acquaintances would not live like that. What? I just need to assist the authoritarian government in the small genocide of political opponents with the help of non-conventional toxic substances? Sounds like a great deal.

You want to help, that's great. Get to know the area, meet the people. See the leaders - some are bandits trying to taking advantage of the chaos and abuse power, some are sensible people wishing for a peaceful and sustainable prosperity. Pick some and just support THOSE if you so want to interfere. But not by means of military force. Don't make a third side and try to outgun and outsource the others and take control profiting from the chaos and helplessness.

Nobody ever said that the Protectorate is a charitable organization, but for some reason you think that they must act as one in order to be acceptable. This is somehow naive. Everyone in Underrail is pursuing their own gain and no one is hiding it. Yes, a Protectorate can be literally tyrannical. But the price of independence is known (see above), and my character is ready for almost anything to stop paying it.

[Vokial]

Did anyone even talk about the task of "taking the land"? Underrail is full of unclaimed land. The task was to destroy Free Drones by any means with minimal losses. And it was done.

Geez, do you really believe that anyone thought that the Protectorate was literally after the land which houses the base of the FD? They want to take over the south. With all the harbours, cities, mines and infrastructure. Those already belong to the people who occupy it, it's not no man's land. FD stood in their path of conquest, just like some indian tribe defending their land. And you say they have to be dealth with "by any means NECASSARY"? How was gassing and making mutants out of them really necessary? You're sure there was no other way?

Should I remind you of the nuclear present for Hiroshima and Nagasaki in real history? Does it make America "evil"?
From my point of view, somehow not. It is normal for a country, any country, to do anything to protect the interests of itself and its citizens. Of course, such actions cannot be considered acceptable in our time. But then they simply corresponded to the cruelty of the era. And the current era of Underrail is no less cruel. Sad but true.

So dropping the A-bomb is not evil according to you. Even using it against soldiers is completely against the rules of engagement, here they dropped it on cities populated by innocent people having nothing to do with the war, just happen to born and live there. How can you say it's not evil? How can you say that that was any way justified? Was it really to protect the citizens of America? Who are actually on the other side of the ocean and the planet, not under any kind of threat? Did the people of Hiroshima or Nagasaki posed any danger to any citizen in the US? This kind of genocide that plagued the land for generations after stood out and were on par with the most gruesome acts of WWII including what the nazis did in their camps. And those were not corresponded to the cruelty of the era either. It was the utmost evil thing in human history.
And did FD endangered Protectorate territory, did they went against the people of the north? No. So who does the self-defense here? The Protectorate did the incursion, they were the threat to the south, no harmful action was justified from their side against people who were simply defending their space and especially not bio terrorism.

There is no "foreign territory" outside the boundaries of cities in South Underrail. It does not belong to anyone, and this is the whole problem. No one cares about raiders until they are so impudent that they raid settlements. No one controls the number of mutants.
If the cities of southern Underrail had come to an agreement and established some kind of ranger structure, at least half of the need for the Protectorate would have disappeared. Or maybe there would be no need for it at all.
Politics at any time is shit, but the politics of people with a medieval mentality and weapons of mass destruction is a huge deep shitty swamp.

Wrong again. South belong to the people who are already in there. Protectorate came from the north, it's irrational to say that they have the same right to another land than the people who are already living there. Also, please do not call FD raiders, they did not raid any settlement. South don't need any help from the outside. Never did. Why does Protectorate think that if no one establish a structure that appeals them then THEY HAVE to do it? Nobody ever asked their help, they even faced resistance. Isn't that a clear sign of "no thanks"? Anything after this is them forcing their way and thus qualifies as oppression. I don't know where you're from or what education you have, but politics are not necessarily dirty and foul play is not part of the trade. It never should be and Protectorate has no place to even engage in ANY kind politics outside their OWN country, let alone dirty politics.

Nobody ever said that the Protectorate is a charitable organization, but for some reason you think that they must act as one in order to be acceptable. This is somehow naive. Everyone in Underrail is pursuing their own gain and no one is hiding it. Yes, a Protectorate can be literally tyrannical. But the price of independence is known (see above), and my character is ready for almost anything to stop paying it.

Charity organisation? On the turf of other people, the Protectorate should be either that, or nothing. They don't have anything to do over there in the first place. Be tyrannical on your own place, don't trouble others. They have no justification to act any other way in a land where they can only be guests at best. And if it's indipendence, then no price is high enough. Even if some people are acting poorly and abuse this freedom, taking away independence (or self willingly going to slavery) is not the way to deal with it. That's like threating them as children. And also being lazy, as it cleary shows that you don't want to work on the problem. A region should develop their people, educate them, make them more mature in mind and if there are some idiots (there are always some in every group), society should just deal with them individually. Never by penalizing a whole nation that are doing just fine, carving down the benefits of their civilization that they accuired through slow and hard work. That's a damage way more immense than what any raider can do.

[sapient fungus]

. They know exactly how volatile and dangerous the mutagen is, yet they choose this weapon to attempt to destroy the drones, despite the risk it poses to civilians in Underrail. Why would you put civilians at risk (the drones hideout is right next to Rail Crossing, from what I remember), when a few dreadnoughts would do the same job? And the CAU don't even manage to finish the job properly, because you will meet FD mutants afterwards, which means some survived. (Now wouldn't it be ironic if someone in the FD would end up with the same mutation as Wyatt in the junkyard?)

I can't imagine Cathcart would ever approve gassing Drones. Storm their lair through main entrance or better send "one man army" to eradicate them, but not gassing.

CAU is not equal to Protectorate ruling elite, they are just very useful and efficient  psychopaths.

Drones base is not next to Rail Crossing, it's actually far and under the station, D5 mutagen gas is obviously heavier than air, so there is no danger of contaminating rail tunnel, only Underpassages, already full of all kind of undesireables, so who cares? I found CAU's plan pretty sound. They not just cleaned "roach nest" but also send a signal to all remaining FD around. Mareth  loves to incite terror, I imagine a long list of warcrimes they are proud of, and gassing is probably not the most hideous one.

[Rubric Sorcerer]

I think it's a fair assessment to make that the CAU are dangerous psychopaths, but they're dangerous psychopaths that serve a specific purpose to the leadership of the Protectorate. Shock troopers, terror troopers, whatever term you might like in regards to them. They exist in the same way that WMDs might, but also in the same vein as something far more expendable, and far more easily laden with blame.

From the general backgrounds you have of them, none of them are mentally stable individuals. One of them is even a murderer, and it can be healthily assumed from the rather lawful structure of the Protectorate that their assignment to the CAU was intended as a punishment that would benefit the state and ensure that their life wouldn't go to waste. In this general vernacular, you could even argue that Captain Mareth is little more than a tard wrangler whose gotten too involved with his subjects.

[Sykar]

Except that they didn't wipe the drones out completely. Mutants aren't some mindless creatures, as shown in the expedition; they are capable of organizing themselves and - obviously - fighting. Who knows what exactly survived that attack - after all, the main feature of the mutagen is that it's so unpredicatable. So yes, the CAU is incompetent.

By exactly the same logic, ANY way of dealing with FD has potential to backfire. But as a matter-of-fact, it hasn't. So CAU HAS achieved their immediate goal.

And what message does this action send to the civilians of Underrail, pray do tell? We've managed to destroy the drone hideout. Btw, the Underrail passages are now inhabited not only by random gangs of various lowlife, but also by dangerous mutants. You're welcome.

As if CAU views infestation of non-allied territories with dangerous mutants as a BAD thing. Hint: they don't.

As for lacking any real knowledge about the protectorate, this goes for the CAU too. You can try to explain their existance through the drones, but the protectorate could be lying through their teeth about the extent of CAU's activitites and targets, and you wouldn't know any better. It might be that the drones are not even their main target. What are the experiments on the mutant bodies in the junkyard for, for example?

No matter how bad Protectorate is at it's core, actions of FD legitimize the existence e of CAU.

No, it does not and to excuse the CAU means that I have to consider you to be at least to some degree at least totalitarian if not outright a fascist.

[Tamior]

No, it does not and to excuse the CAU means that I have to consider you to be at least to some degree at least totalitarian if not outright a fascist.

It matters not what you or I think about CAU from ethical standpoint.
In the eyes of Protectorate, FD's actions further legitimize existence of CAU.
That's simply how it work. You or I can personally believe that within our moral framework "nothing can legitimize CAU" all we want. However, Protectorate clearly does not share that sentiment.
Also, you seem to be rather confused what "totalitarian" or "fascist" actually means. An absolutely morally bankrupt government with full blown "might makes right" attitude may very well be neither of those things.

[Sykar]

No, it does not and to excuse the CAU means that I have to consider you to be at least to some degree at least totalitarian if not outright a fascist.

It matters not what you or I think about CAU from ethical standpoint.
In the eyes of Protectorate, FD's actions further legitimize existence of CAU.
That's simply how it work. You or I can personally believe that within our moral framework "nothing can legitimize CAU" all we want. However, Protectorate clearly does not share that sentiment.
Also, you seem to be rather confused what "totalitarian" or "fascist" actually means. An absolutely morally bankrupt government with full blown "might makes right" attitude may very well be neither of those things.

It is completely irrelevant what they think. The German Nazis thought that the atrocities they commited were for the betterment of humanity. Hint, again irrelevant, they were still fanatical bigoted genocidal maniacs.

[Tamior]

No, it does not and to excuse the CAU means that I have to consider you to be at least to some degree at least totalitarian if not outright a fascist.

It matters not what you or I think about CAU from ethical standpoint.
In the eyes of Protectorate, FD's actions further legitimize existence of CAU.
That's simply how it work. You or I can personally believe that within our moral framework "nothing can legitimize CAU" all we want. However, Protectorate clearly does not share that sentiment.
Also, you seem to be rather confused what "totalitarian" or "fascist" actually means. An absolutely morally bankrupt government with full blown "might makes right" attitude may very well be neither of those things.

It is completely irrelevant what they think. The German Nazis thought that the atrocities they commited were for the betterment of humanity. Hint, again irrelevant, they were still fanatical bigoted genocidal maniacs.

And?
There are plenty of fanatical bigoted genocidal maniacs throughout history that existed with at least moderate success for dozens if not hundreds of years.
And while they exist, violent terror campaigns that target civilians (what FD are effectively up to) usually only strengthen their rule.

[Sykar]

No, it does not and to excuse the CAU means that I have to consider you to be at least to some degree at least totalitarian if not outright a fascist.

It matters not what you or I think about CAU from ethical standpoint.
In the eyes of Protectorate, FD's actions further legitimize existence of CAU.
That's simply how it work. You or I can personally believe that within our moral framework "nothing can legitimize CAU" all we want. However, Protectorate clearly does not share that sentiment.
Also, you seem to be rather confused what "totalitarian" or "fascist" actually means. An absolutely morally bankrupt government with full blown "might makes right" attitude may very well be neither of those things.

It is completely irrelevant what they think. The German Nazis thought that the atrocities they commited were for the betterment of humanity. Hint, again irrelevant, they were still fanatical bigoted genocidal maniacs.

And?
There are plenty of fanatical bigoted genocidal maniacs throughout history that existed with at least moderate success for dozens if not hundreds of years.
And while they exist, violent terror campaigns that target civilians (what FD are effectively up to) usually only strengthen their rule.

The FD does not target civilians specifically. They are a picking exclusively targets who are either Protectorate or collaborators. You can spin it however you want. The CAU has no grounds for existing outside of fascistic rationalizations. You can easily do the same with elite commandos who just give you a quick death. The CAU is excessively vile and flat out evil. Not much else compares in Underrail. They are akin to the Dirlewanger brigade, just more sophisticated.
What strengthens a dictatorship more than anything is apathy. Going by your logic any kind of freedom movement should be prohibited because it might cause totalitarian regimes to "justify" horrendous extermination and/or terror units.

[Tamior]

No, it does not and to excuse the CAU means that I have to consider you to be at least to some degree at least totalitarian if not outright a fascist.

It matters not what you or I think about CAU from ethical standpoint.
In the eyes of Protectorate, FD's actions further legitimize existence of CAU.
That's simply how it work. You or I can personally believe that within our moral framework "nothing can legitimize CAU" all we want. However, Protectorate clearly does not share that sentiment.
Also, you seem to be rather confused what "totalitarian" or "fascist" actually means. An absolutely morally bankrupt government with full blown "might makes right" attitude may very well be neither of those things.

It is completely irrelevant what they think. The German Nazis thought that the atrocities they commited were for the betterment of humanity. Hint, again irrelevant, they were still fanatical bigoted genocidal maniacs.

And?
There are plenty of fanatical bigoted genocidal maniacs throughout history that existed with at least moderate success for dozens if not hundreds of years.
And while they exist, violent terror campaigns that target civilians (what FD are effectively up to) usually only strengthen their rule.

The FD does not target civilians specifically. They are a picking exclusively targets who are either Protectorate or collaborators.

So are citizens of Rail Crossing "collaborators" or "Protectorate"?