Author Topic: Calling all psionics  (Read 9016 times)

Styg

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Calling all psionics
« on: February 12, 2020, 11:03:53 am »
Hey, guys, I'm doing a little harmless experiment. Could you share your psi wizard saves for the sake of science?

I'm especially interested in optimized overpowered psi generalists, for no particular reason.

edit: use dropbox or some such
« Last Edit: February 12, 2020, 11:06:39 am by Styg »

Tamior

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Re: Calling all psionics
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2020, 04:28:57 pm »
Welp, lvl 20 psion on DOMINATING. Not hyper-optimized or max level, but can still face-tank Curnifex (by crafting riot gear) and all the jazz.

Also, got to lvl 20 without using force field or thermodynamic destab (because both are OP as hell). Or dying.
Btw, NERF FORCE FIELD. There, I said it.


Anyway, as far as I can tell, this should work:
http://ge.tt/4fGdIF13

Do tell me if it somehow does NOT work, Styg.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2020, 09:45:42 pm by Tamior »

Liondude

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Re: Calling all psionics
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2020, 04:34:03 pm »
Here's a SI Psychosis build I abandoned after completing expedition for the first time (IIRC it's around level 27). I think it's pretty optimized, but YMMV.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=170Qs6Fgr49XM7e22iRQG0c0j8NMeyN-l

kosherman

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Re: Calling all psionics
« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2020, 04:42:02 pm »
Here's a level 26 pisonicist on Hard, psychosis too I think.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/xx8meg1581k9m5r/PreDC.zip?dl=0

TheAverageGortsby

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Re: Calling all psionics
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2020, 05:57:07 pm »
Hey, guys, I'm doing a little harmless experiment.

Tamior

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Re: Calling all psionics
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2020, 09:39:18 pm »
doubt.png
INB4, next patch notes:
Fixed a bug with most areas not having active airborne black dragon toxin dispensers.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2020, 09:42:11 pm by Tamior »

TheAverageGortsby

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Re: Calling all psionics
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2020, 09:59:43 pm »
INB4, next patch notes:
Fixed a bug with most areas not having active airborne black dragon toxin dispensers.
Why do you give Styg ideas?  You know he is not a merciful Godman.

Notice how he asked about overpowered psi generalists?  My money is on cross-school penalties, like global accruing cooldowns or cumulative cost increases.
Patch notes: Fixed a bug where it was possible to complete the game as a full psi character.

Tamior

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Re: Calling all psionics
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2020, 10:47:10 pm »
INB4, next patch notes:
Fixed a bug with most areas not having active airborne black dragon toxin dispensers.
Why do you give Styg ideas?  You know he is not a merciful Godman.

Notice how he asked about overpowered psi generalists?  My money is on cross-school penalties, like global accruing cooldowns or cumulative cost increases.
Patch notes: Fixed a bug where it was possible to complete the game as a full psi character.
Good, good.
Also, nerf force field.
Did I mention nerfing force field? (And thermodynamic destab, for that matter.)

TheAverageGortsby

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Re: Calling all psionics
« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2020, 11:29:01 pm »
Also, nerf force field.
Did I mention nerfing force field? (And thermodynamic destab, for that matter.)
Months ago Styg said he was considering giving Force Field blocks a hit point value so they could be destroyed.  If the AI would go after the field, that would be a pretty good nerf.  I'd probably still take Force User though on every psi build for the extra punchiness.  A ThermoD fix would require addressing the big bugbear of psi, in order to be a graceful fix and not just a quick kludge - the fact that psi scales too high with the combination of flat-% results as well as scaled numbers, and can then apply those to multiple targets.  Like, TK Proxy -> Implosion -> TK Punch.  Double percents, then double scaled values on the tiny fraction that remains.  That's just too much.  But if Implosion and TK Punch shared a cooldown?  Or if triggering one put, say, a 2-turn cooldown on the other (so you couldn't just LTI it away)? Well, that might make things more interesting.  Similarly, ThermoD does scaled % damage (and allows you to pick the highest-health target you can subsequently kill, meaning it actually double-scales the percentage) to uncapped targets, meaning its multiplier is whatever number of enemies you can group up - and, as much as I love the game, the AI isn't world-class.  You can group the entire Lunatic Mall in a tight ball with one bear trap and a flashbang.  So you'd probably need to decouple the ThermoD damage potential from its target potential.  If its damage was divided across targets, instead of copied to them, well that might make it more interesting.  If damage fell away with distance from source and then spread, ThermoD might not be any more powerful than a well-placed grenade, while still retaining a uniqueness.  And of course, you could fix all that all day and I could still faceroll the game by dodging robots then LoC+Enraging everything else, everywhere, every time  :P

Still, I've always been of the opinion that games should have an easymode, and I don't mean an Easy setting.  Psi is way more interesting than tin can AR or sledge juggernaut; it would be a shame to make the easiest option one of the least varied.  I can always limit myself if I want a challenge when playing psi - tuning the game to be relentlessly hard is the best way to drive away a big portion of potential player base.

Underground Wanderer

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Re: Calling all psionics
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2020, 05:43:03 am »
Styg please no! I know what your thinking and please don't do it! I am an avid psion player and I like it just as it is.

harperfan7

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*eurobeat intensifies*

Tamior

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Re: Calling all psionics
« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2020, 07:20:13 am »
<...>
As you've correctly identified, the problem with force field is that it's completely non-interactive.  Which makes it 100% reliable and fool-proof. Which, in turn, allows for dozens of other super-cheesy tactics. I don't have a problem with rathound of siphoner being unable (or effectively unable) to destroy the force field, but someone with equal or greater skill in psychokinesis should be able to dismiss about as easily as it was created.
Thermodynamic destab, as also you've correctly identified, is just too good as a multiplier. Proxy + Implosion + TK punch is sure strong, but at least it's single-target with long CD. ThermoD increasing that damage 3x and then ALSO making it AOE is just ridiculous.

As for LoC + engare, it's not nearly as bad without force field. Simply because enraged enemies might still attack the player, so it's not fool-proof. But I would definitely support if LoC had extra cost or some kind of penalty for extra targets being effected. 

TheAverageGortsby

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Re: Calling all psionics
« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2020, 03:25:17 pm »
As for LoC + engare, it's not nearly as bad without force field. Simply because enraged enemies might still attack the player, so it's not fool-proof.
It might just be a difference in how we use the term, but I think Enrage is just as bad without FF, it just takes a tiny bit more set-up to be as bad.  An enraged enemy that can see a friend nearby and can't see you is almost never going to come attack you.  At least, in hundreds of times using it, I've never been attacked by an enraged enemy that's out of LOS or at the very edge of LOS while other targets are right near by it.  So you Premeditate for the extra range, LoC+Enrage, then since you're psi anyway you psi haste and GTFO.  It might not be theoretically perfect but in practice it's always going to be safe.

In the few cases where you're right in the scrum, running to the edge and tossing a flashbang to get you your ideal positioning during the incap will almost always do the trick.  If it's a combo of organic and robotic enemy targets, well...flashbang and EMP are on different cooldown timers, anyway  ;D

ciox

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Re: Calling all psionics
« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2020, 09:52:24 am »
That type of Forcefield nerf would be truly hilarious, a total switch in how it works after 7 years, just for the hell of it. It really should be put to a vote or something, because I'm pretty sure the majority of players would consider it a random and stupid change, and would prefer effort put in to provide psi balance that doesn't destroy the old metagame, instead of some kind of hilarious troll in the guise of a patch.

Tamior

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Re: Calling all psionics
« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2020, 11:57:39 am »
As for LoC + engare, it's not nearly as bad without force field. Simply because enraged enemies might still attack the player, so it's not fool-proof.
It might just be a difference in how we use the term, but I think Enrage is just as bad without FF, it just takes a tiny bit more set-up to be as bad.  An enraged enemy that can see a friend nearby and can't see you is almost never going to come attack you.  At least, in hundreds of times using it, I've never been attacked by an enraged enemy that's out of LOS or at the very edge of LOS while other targets are right near by it.  So you Premeditate for the extra range, LoC+Enrage, then since you're psi anyway you psi haste and GTFO.  It might not be theoretically perfect but in practice it's always going to be safe.

In the few cases where you're right in the scrum, running to the edge and tossing a flashbang to get you your ideal positioning during the incap will almost always do the trick.  If it's a combo of organic and robotic enemy targets, well...flashbang and EMP are on different cooldown timers, anyway  ;D
I would agree with you if enemies were always packed tight enough to be effected by one LoC.
However, as soon as some enemies are out of LoC AOE, those unaffected still chase the player (even if line if sight was broken), thus preventing player from disengaging. And often also making their enraged buddies chase them instead of killing each other ("instead of" because they use their AP chasing, not attacking).
Also, LoC is lvl 14 feat. So it requires a feat point and lvl 14+. While force field is available at lvl 2-3, and reaches full power with lvl 4 feat.
Anyway, I still agree that LoC is pretty overpowered, and that at least some penalty/extra cost for multiply targets being effected is warranted.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2020, 12:01:00 pm by Tamior »