Looking for pointers on my Tank AR/Sniper build

[Richter]

Hi everyone.

Here is the build : http://underrail.info.tm/build/?HggDAwoNAwbCoMKKAAAAAABIAAAAa3ZMS1UALcKfRkwAYwEmKztQFU9KwodJYyozS37CtcKkVcKtwpzipI4B4qe-CuKxlgTfvw

I plan to play it on DOMINATING. It is my very first time with AR or/and sniper.

Playstyle :
Out of combat : Persuasion and mercantile are not negotiable here. Lockpickin does not interest me that much (I will play with classic mode, but I guess it would still be OK with oddities) while hacking has some really interesting checks here and there (in Expedition for example)

In combat : kinda simple, sniper are loud, so I might attract a lot of ennemies and I want to be able to resist them. AR bursts, Grenades and/or Premeditation+TD+aimed shot should be enough for CC. I will be able to kite ennemies from afar with my sniper while still being powerful at close range with my rifle. PTC brings me to a total of 72 AP which is enough for 2 bursts or 3 sniper's shots. Psychokinesis also gives me some options.

Planned gear :

Weapons : Spearhead with RR and AA-scope for high criticals bonuses and 3 shots/turn with PTA specialized / Hornet 9mm with RR and muzzle brake (2 bursts)
Armor : Full tungsten armor with regenerative vest for very high mechanial DR/DT and the first half of the game, Full SS one I've finished EXPEDITION (that I plan to do before DC) thanks to 150 mercantile checks to get filthy rich. OC I may not be able to carry both at the same time...
Headgear : for switch high quality seeker googles but I don't plan to use them a lot...
Belts : bullet strap belt and lifting belt for switch.
Shield : Electronics seems high and I know about the low quality single LOW shield perks for a TIN CAN, but endgame High/High shield  might be useful against some factions I plan to fight

Problems:

I really want to be tanky, so Ambush, Snipe, Blindsiding, etc. are irrelevant here. My problem is I have nothing to compensate the lack of critical chances. and because PER isn't maximized I fear the lack of precision for long range fights on High evasion ennemies (Ambush does halve the ennemy evasion and I don't have it here). I don't think SI would be that great because it would make me far less resilient and I may not find myself naturally under <30% most of the time.

Questions :
1) Is shooting spree enough to get Aimed shot at least once every two turn and OFTEN one every turn?

2) Is my assault rifle powerful enough or should I do everything to get more crit chances ?

3) Is 8 STR 15 PER a good choice instead of 7 STR 16 PER so I can wear tungsten with rathound BBQ or wear SS set without it ?

4) Should I take Pack Rathound or not or will inventory management not be as much as an hassle that I fear.

5) Will I be able to reliably shot ennemies with "low" PER ?

THANKS A LOT.

[DerivativeZero]

Hi Richter,

I've played both a ThermoD non crit sniper and a Blitz/PSI crit sniper on dominating, so here's my two cents:

1) Your build will play as an AR for most of the game and has all the right feats for it in the beginning.

2) Sniping damage of Spearhead is very low until you get to Crit Power and have specced it about 4+ times, so level 24 for you? Before that, forget about sniping. Dominating features a lot of hit points and while you can force one crit with aimed shot, the rest of your two sniper shots per round will likely not kill the enemy. This means shooting spree is not that relevant in my experience.

3) If you want to snipe earlier, take crit power earlier and spec it after speccing the haste feat. But without snipe and high crit chance, you'll probably see that just using your very powerful AR is just plain better.

4) My non crit sniper with PSI really worked because of high WIL and locus of control, so I'm not sure that without decent crowd control, a lot of shots with the Spearhead will be fun/viable. It may work as an opener, but without stealth and in strong armour, you are not very mobile to play hide and seek with enemies and use the sniper rifle more often.

5) I can't really comment on the armor issues (usually nimble and armor-sloping help to be a bit more mobile, but i don't see space to squeeze them in in your build. sprint, too, so your build looks very stationary to me)

6) PER should be more than ok, you might want to turn on nightvision crit googles in some places. But again, most of the time this should be in the context of using your AR.

7) With high STR pack rathound might not be necessary, if you were to switch to a Hornet or Marauder with 7.62mm you could synergize a bit on ammo weight, and the spearhead would likely feed off W2C 7.62, so not a big issue of cannibalizing your ammo.

In my experience, the crit sniper and crit AR build gets much more fun damage, but I agree that it might conflict too much with the tankiness you aim for.

Hope this helps!

[Richter]

Hi DerivativeZero,

You're totally right about this build being more an AR build than anything else...

I don't see how to stack critical chances without renouncing to my tankiness as you've just said and I've already played a lot of "lucky" (high critical chances relying) squeashy characters (Ambush crossbows, high dexterity SI energy pistols, SI psychosis psion) I've recently completed a tungsten hammer wizard run where I discoverd the perks of being a tin can and I want to be one again but being a long range fighter this time. This new playthrough is meant to be "quick" and easy.

The lack of mobility is NOT an issue at all, I'm aware of that. Playing hide and seek kinda got old for me and I found that crowd control using nades/psionic abilities and health management to be more entertaining for me (at least for now).

Because I don't plan to use Survival instincts, the only thing I could add would be recklessness concerning the feats. Concerning gears of course infused rathound is out of question, but seekers may be used now and then, yeah.

If I am lucky, i could stack 20 (seekers) + 7 (recklessness) + 7 (scrutinous) + [3 (Body horror)] + 5 (hardcore chips) + 15 (focus stim) for a total of 57 base crit. For an AR, it would be 62, which might be enough maybe to consider replacing my 9mm muzzled rapid hornet with a 8.6 AA scoped rapid Chimera ? (I'm a bit too lazy to do this simple math right now, and morevover i'm not really sure of the law that the damage variable obeys, is it uniform ?)

The sniper feats were there indeed for opening fights with a big crowd (during beach invasion, natives' fight on their island, Balor's camp) and slaying tankiest bosses (I would like so much to one shot/overkill the last boss at least once not being a Pure Psi but I'm pretty sure it won't be the case without Snipe though).
Maybe the issue here, is not my lack of critical chances but my poor choice of weapon for the use it is attended for here and I would be better off with a 12.7mm RR (AA-)scoped Corsair. I would OS an ennemy with Aimed Shot, then have 72% to OS (maybe more if he's not at full health) a second one and use Aimed Shot again the next turn. Or am I totally missing something here?

What do you think?

) My non crit sniper with PSI really worked because of high WIL and locus of control

I'll look for it on the forum. But if it is not on here, could you link it to me? I'm really interested in the concept.


Also thank you very much for your answer.

[Shredded Cheddar]

So I did a build based off of this thread: https://underrail.com/forums/index.php?topic=4619.msg25477#msg25477

Basically I did something similar but with more con, juggernaut whatever.... and I found that even with 10 will 10 per my psi and AR later in the game were more than enough to kill almost everything instantly.

With adrenaline & PTC I could get off 3x27AP burst for 9 shots each plus once something dies another ar burst for free + 9 ap from commando specialization. Basically if you bring the right bullets, everything is deader than dead.  You have enough ap for a nade or psi power after as well and this is just the first turn... Basically with 15 per I wouldn't worry too much. A lot of the time you want your accuracy to be lower than optimal so your burst spreads around and kills everyone.

[DerivativeZero]

The sniper feats were there indeed for opening fights with a big crowd (during beach invasion, natives' fight on their island, Balor's camp) and slaying tankiest bosses (I would like so much to one shot/overkill the last boss at least once not being a Pure Psi but I'm pretty sure it won't be the case without Snipe though).
Maybe the issue here, is not my lack of critical chances but my poor choice of weapon for the use it is attended for here and I would be better off with a 12.7mm RR (AA-)scoped Corsair. I would OS an ennemy with Aimed Shot, then have 72% to OS (maybe more if he's not at full health) a second one and use Aimed Shot again the next turn. Or am I totally missing something here?

What do you think?

) My non crit sniper with PSI really worked because of high WIL and locus of control

I'll look for it on the forum. But if it is not on here, could you link it to me? I'm really interested in the concept.

Yeah, bigger sniper rifle and premeditated ThermoD opener might work better than reliance on Spearhead for your build. Not sure crit.chance stacking via Focus stim is realistic though, people keep mentioning it but it requires a bit of harvesting of stuff and I never found a lot of resources to have lots of Focus stims, so it was always rather hypothetical. And I don't think you can buy them anywhere.

I can't comment on AR, I usually use 7.62 Hornet/Marauder on a crit build and Chimera for the free burst. I think AP economy is key for you, damage should be fine for all. As Shredded Cheddar says, you want to burst a lot and spread your bullet-form love.

PSI/Sniper has so many hits on the forum, you should be fine. My take on it in a nutshell is this:

Abilities 6/3/3/3/10/10/5 +INT+PER for the rest. Feats (in order): Aimed Shot, Opportunist, Recklessness, Nimble, Premeditation, Snipe, Shooting Spree, Temporal Acc (Spec 4times a.s.a.p), Crit Power (Spec 10 times), Locus of Control, Sharpshooter(Spec 1x), Ambush, Blindsiding, Expertise (for Silent SMG), Scrutinous, PER+2,

Up until Crit-Power, Sniper Rifles are underwhelming but with full skill investment in Thought Control you get by. Later, 3 shots with rapid spearhead, always something to premeditate: either premed+LoC+Breakdown to pick off enemies at leisure, or premed+ThermoD for DaBomb or premed+LoC+Enrage for the usual cheese. But as a non-crit build, the Spearhead crits 1 out of three shots roughly, so it's really touch and go with three shots, then decision on what to premeditate depending on how the sniping went (obviously ambush and snipe help with this!). Fun to play from LoC onwards, before it no real sniper feeling.

[Richter]

So I did a build based off of this thread: https://underrail.com/forums/index.php?topic=4619.msg25477#msg25477

Basically I did something similar but with more con, juggernaut whatever.... and I found that even with 10 will 10 per my psi and AR later in the game were more than enough to kill almost everything instantly.

With adrenaline & PTC I could get off 3x27AP burst for 9 shots each plus once something dies another ar burst for free + 9 ap from commando specialization. Basically if you bring the right bullets, everything is deader than dead.  You have enough ap for a nade or psi power after as well and this is just the first turn... Basically with 15 per I wouldn't worry too much. A lot of the time you want your accuracy to be lower than optimal so your burst spreads around and kills everyone.

Hi there. First of all, thank you for your reply. The build linked is interesting since I've played a lot of underrail and I'm looking for an out of the ordinary build which cumulates a lot of options (sacrifying "optimal" results for some). A no reload run is what I aim for now, not for the next playthough, I'm just experimenting with heavy guns here.

Thanks for the info about the perk of a non 95% precise burst and the feedback on non optimized AR still being able to cull many things. It is important for me to know that.

Not sure crit.chance stacking via Focus stim is realistic though, people keep mentioning it but it requires a bit of harvesting of stuff and I never found a lot of resources to have lots of Focus stims, so it was always rather hypothetical. And I don't think you can buy them anywhere.

From my experience, it is not difficult to harvest around 15/20 focus stims with minimal investment in the beggining if you kill every rathounds you naturally encounter before  or just after junkyard (on your way toward GMS, for the knife quest in Junkyard, and just after finding the drill on you way to camp Harthor and Rathound king lair, you will potentially loot around 30 hearts 15 adrenaline glands and up to 10 intestine... Then there are some rathounds here and there to kill around foundry and RC if you don't skip them with Rathound regalia and finally on DOMINATING adrenaline glands are dropped by bladelings killed during the Beast battle).

But it would be time consuming to craft more and so 15 to 20 would pretty much be all you'll get in a normal playthrough...

I can't comment on AR, I usually use 7.62 Hornet/Marauder on a crit build and Chimera for the free burst. I think AP economy is key for you, damage should be fine for all. As Shredded Cheddar says, you want to burst a lot and spread your bullet-form love.

I've seen elsewhere someone [EDIT: wait it was Shredded Cheddar, I must have been half asleep while redacting this message] mentionning the Commando specialization + PTA spec. would bring us to 81 points : at 27 AP per burst a 7.62mm RR muzzled Hornet can be used 3 times and then enable a 4th burst with an 9mm AA-scoped muzzled Chimera... I might try.

If I stick with a bigger sniper rifle, I might be fine with no points in sharpshooter and just 8 in Critical power or even less if I want to put them on Full Auto.

I also hesitate to put one point from PER into STR for the sole confort of wearing a Tungsten set (for higher mechanial DT) with no food.

My take on it in a nutshell is this:

Thank you for the build and the commentary. Before a month ago, I would not have imagined taking LoC on anything else than a pure psion but I'm getting more and more into the idea of doing so, because obviously TC is by far the more potent way to control big crowd and it might synergize very well with other strategies by sacrifying a bit of damage output. I could not put it in this particular build because I really wanted to be a tin can. But yeah, i need to try it at least once.

[Richter]

Alright,

I tried my build on normal in order to test it quickly, and indeed the spearhead damage are underwhelming withouth a critical hit.

Moreover, ARs are clearly more potent with one in both hands (because of magasine limitation if you want to use RR and muzzle break, which you obviously should for maximum damage output), so I decided to change my build for a more orthodox one.

Still, the first post build may be one of the most noob friendly ever, just putting 1 point from PER to STR to wear a tungsten suit it is quickly OP in normal and kinda crush the entire game. While the damage output is not optimized, it is enough for Normal and the ability to kite Though Controllers/psionics is especially soothing after a melee run.

For dominating, it is another story, and I think this one is more or less totally optimized :

http://underrail.info.tm/build/?HggDAwoNAwbCoMKKAAAAAABIAAAAa3dMS1UALcKeRkwAYyZiOytPFSpKwodJY0skRVXCtcKkMcKcwq3in6IF4qeqA-KnvgPisZYE378

The strategy would be to start with a Psionic tactical vest before turning to Tichrome / SS armor,  to increase early chemisty and biology early on to access gas grenade then chemistry mecanics and tayloring for MK IV hand grenades, incendiary ones and tactical vests/ stealth gear (before Rathound regalia which would be my endgame stealth armor because of its many other advantages for exploring the game, looting, etc.)

Weapons would be : one Rapid Muzzled 7.62mm Hornet and a AA scope Muzzled 9mm Chimera (I'm not sure about the last one caliber, because economy on DOMINATING is something else and 9mm ammo are not as current as 8.6mm seems to be, and they are heavier)

Armor: As recommended by DerivativeZero I would wear Seeker Nightvision google, SS armor (AP decreased by Armor Sloping) and stiders for maximum mobility. I may sacrifice PER to put 3 points in AGI and get Sprint, but I don't see which other feat I would sacrifice and it would decrease my damage a bit too much I guess... I won't exchange 3 point in INT for 3 point in AGI though, because Armor sloping is better than sprint once you've started to craft (it gives you less MP but it gives it every single turn) and you also get Premeditation this way.
Aside from the AP reduction perk/MP bonuses of stiders and the advantage of seekers over an helmet, I will still have a shadded SS helmet and SS reinforced boot for the pleasure of running with 95% mechanical reduction in some situations.

Well, it turned out far less original than I intended to. But whatever.


For merchants choice : I think Praetorians' one is far too usefull for us. He gives us a mid game armor, he accepts to buy firearms and does have interesting components (firearms' one but also ballistic panels, carrier vests, striders), then Protectorate (the only advantage of FD are with padding, but it is not that crucial for us to have a very high quality one for our boots, and the helmet will mostly be there for some situations where a shadded visor may be usefull) and of course Pirates if I ever want to craft some endgame drugs I wouldn't ever bother to get the ingredients any other way... But I'm not sure about this, because beach assaults may be really pleasant with such a build.

I don't see any cons to this build, except probably the high ressource consumption problem : repairs kits and ammo may be lacking in DC and/or BS...

It will be my LAST RUN ever, so I want everything to be "perfect"... I might want to try a zero/mininal number of reloads run.



Hesitations:
-I'm not sure about my investment on MT. If I put it down to 70 I would get enough points to get every lockpicking checks with an eel sandwich, jacknife and lemurian suit. So for an oddity run it might be better. But I have not decided for the XP system yet, and eventhough leveling would be a bit slower without lockpicking it would not be that much of an issue I think. But everything else is optimized. Maybe I could put points in traps but it got old after several runs with heavy investment in it. So I have nowhere to put my points in.
-Last feats may be permutated
-Spec. points go to Commando first THEN PyschoTemporal Acceleration but then... I'm not really sure if I go with full auto (which would benefits every bursts) or Crititcal power (which benefits only one burst per turn) or even opportunist... I think my repartition is a good compromise. (It is not just about damage total output but also about the way you can distibute it during one turn, I need some advise here from a more experienced player with ARs on DOMINATING)
- Expertise does not work on critical hits, but it may be helpful for the first half of the run and latter still gives us around 18*20= 360 damage/turn. While it is not a lot, it is still quite OK for one single feat I think. Or am I wrong?


Is there anything I'm not doing "optimally" here or any problematic I'm missing?


Thanks again btw, answers so far have been of great help.

BONUS : Here is a version with no psionic power (for fun / self limitation / RP) : http://underrail.info.tm/build/?HggDAwoNAwbCoMKKAAAAAABIUABTa3dMS1UAAAAATG5jJg5iOxVPSmNJSzEkRVXCpMK1d8Kcwq3in6IF4qeqA-Knvgffvw

Trap skills are meant to be used endgame against Natives. Intimidation is just there for the checks/ for fun.

About Doctor instead of Fast Metabolism: it is better (mostly for QoL and since you don't get a psi pool) as long as you don't use Regenerative Vest, otherwise the latter is better.

[DerivativeZero]

Definitely looks interesting and the whole Commando spec and three bursts AR is very cool. Out of curiosity: would 3x Rapid Muzzled Hornet outdamage the 2x AA  Muzzled Hornet burst with maxed Crit Power/Crit.Chance optimization? In terms of having three bursts (plus Commando) versus two powerful bursts (plus Commando) per round, the former probably offers more versatility, but I'd be interested what the damage comparison is. Expertise on AR, I don't know though, I also don't think it makes a big difference in early-game as the damage of the AR is high compared to the Expertise boost. Have never tried it though.

[Sat]

Build is very balanced and not much to add.

If you plan to use seeker, it may be better to side with Coretech. The quality is much higher than at occulus (Quality at 150+ are very often popping granting a +18% crit chance). For frames, other merchants will sell. The equipment that you will not find at the same quality is sturdy vest (difference will be 10-15 health points).

9mm is a very good choice of caliber for free burst as you can load it with acid bullets.

For skills points, you could raise Lockpicking versus other stats like persuasion, throwing or electronics. Methatermics is not a bad investment.You may want to add a couple of points to Biology for SS drug as you are not very far from crafting it.

For traps, 0 point is far enough as you can use simple bear traps and caltrops for CC.

Personal opinion, not being a fan of expertise > You are going to have high crit chance and expertise is adding little damage at early level. I would swap it for recklessness or remove it completely. You can easily reach 70% chance after depot a with focus stim.

For veteran points, you may check the difference between investing in critical power and full auto. I am really not sure that investing in full auto is better than critical power. You have invested for extra action points and, if it gives an extra burst, then very good calculation and choice

Have a nice run