Author Topic: Please finish developing the JKK questline (***SPOILERS***)  (Read 3357 times)

Vokial

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SPOILERS BELOW, read at your own discretion















Each quest starts out strong but ends in the most half-@assed way possible. Literally none of the 3 missions with Vivian get any explanation. Her introduction and being a more developed personality with the first mission being really interesting won me over. A reliable veteran agent suddenly goes completely nuts? There could have been so many reasons and not giving one is such a wasted oppurtunity. There could've been some drug addiction, or him forced to go undercover while trying to root out an inner spy, so you're sent after him by Vivian to neutralize him, before he gets his evidence published to JKK? Instead what've we got? We find this agent and he's just hostile from the start, we kill him and nothing is explained. There's nothing in his room, a diary in his desk or on his body where his writing gets more derailed due to his mind being slowly consumed thanks to the deprivation of a certain drug that made him that effective to earn his status among JKK. So now that he lost his supplier or whatever, knowing what is to come, he choose exile and slowly gone mad.
Or an even better route that connects more to the plot: details of him being choosed to discreetly perform an inside investigation, as Edstrom was led to think that there might be a possible double agent among the company. Eventually he got busted in front of the double agent too early, overstepped his authority by doing something that's against the morals of the company getting him formally fired within the company, or with his cover blown, making him and his employer conclude that returning to HQ or even going out in public with now Coretech being after him was a bad idea (while being secretly still in contact with Edstrom). During his investigation, an oppurtunity arised, but with a steep price of loosing his cover, crippling the whole operation... But he took the risk and managed to uncover something that might provide enough evidence against the agent's agenda. After tracking him down, he could inform you about his suspicion on her and you could choose to eliminate him without coversation or hear him out and eventually let him go. Later upon Vivian's disappearance, On the way out, we could meeet Ola (assigned to keep an eye on you being such a sudden freshman in these times and getting along surprisingly well with Vivian) who would suggest to keep this confidential until they gather further details and waiting for the perfect time to make their move.
Later, Ola could've included the reports of this missing agent in his explanation to the player after the 3rd mission, so at least we could have something. Instead of nothing. Would that be too much to ask? Literally it's nothing more, than just adding a few dialogue lines... but the difference it would make would be huge. Then Ola just adds on to the player's frustration when he has the ordacity of getting all upset for being asked to provide at least some explanation. And that's what made me frustrated, it's not just that things turned to the worse, you just have to accept that you're not even get filled in on the details. We've never know why the agent turned batshit, who's the guy he was fighting with at the bar (a possible counter agent from Coretech set to tail then neutralize him and steal any evidence he gathered) and for what reason and what made him change so suddenly from a focused veteran agent to a crazed up maniac attacking everyone on sight.
Why start a questline, building up interest, when you're not going to develop it further than it's beginning? Because that's what the first quest have. Just a start and nothing more. It ends without a warning or explanation and in it's current state, it meets the requirement of being just barely functionable, so the player can move on to the next one. Such a waste.

No explanation on the second either. Who are the kidnappers, who were the hostages, nothing. At least I was not as interested in those questions, if that makes it better or worse, that's another question. Also, why any of this is JKK related? I thought we're gonna have a betting heist, or some arena beast breakout... I mean their main profile is Arena matches and it's broadcasting. Why it's them doing the rescue? When there's a hostage situation, the law enforcement's special team gets in. That would've be Praetorians. If JKK got contacted by a general in command of the rescue operation to ask for disabling the security security of the complex so hat they could move in, that would've made sense. They found out that with it, there's a formidable opposition and in order to avoid unnecessary casualties, they had to resort employing outside assistance - from JKK who know a thing or two about broadcasting and also surveillance, also happen to be in for the easy money. You could even totally drop the hostage rescue idea and say that they don't say much, but for what is known, a warehouse got stormed by an unknown mercenary organisation... So you could totally link some quests together and say that the building is the warehouse where the third quest happens for the Praetorian Security. Minds would've been blown for people in their second playthrough. And again, zero programming required, all it would take is just changing the dialogue and the quest would suddenly make sense.

Third one is just to make the players mad. A sick joke. Suddenly you are presented with a character that's actually surprisingly developed compared to what you've ssen recently, actually had a backstory, fun dialogue, everything. It made you feel that yes, devs can do good writing with enough effort. Only to have that shattered in the most sadistic way possible - cutting off the flow with an event happening outside the players view. I know it might be a little self centered to complain about this, but seriously, how could you do such a grand build up, making us partake in interesting and fun interactions which leads the player to a mission that the two attend together (which is basically what everyone wanted at that point), engaging in conversations about each other and sealing it with a promise. Literally everything is done so that the ending can be as frustrating as possible. Really a huge middle finger from the devs.



Now let's forget that we're here as gamers first and foremost, and inspect Vivian from a different perspective. I'm not working on HR, but I know as much that people like Vivian are fun to have around in workplaces. This type of personality can be annoying when it feels forced or falsely acted, usually when it's used in occasions when it seems out of context or when as a tool in order to achieve something.
But if it's genuine, effortless and without any intentions while not being overused, even if the person is downright ugly, these kind of people can be major reasons for other coworkers to return back to their work every day, especially in such places like police, ambulance or retail. Even if things get busy and stressful, they can make the day easy and workers can leave with energy from the fun they had. Especially when it get's tough, the harmless positivity they radiate can forge work relationships, exactly because after a certain point, these connections can only get stronger in giving and receiving reliability and humour in times of hardship.
Vivian was that person, and it's a shame they erased her out of the game the way they did. If the devs want to destroy her so much okay, then she should've just betray the player in the third mission, making it seem like she actually lured you into a trap, plotting on you falling down to be eaten by mutants and revealing her true identity through well written lines on the radio aterwards when you ask for her help. Saying that she found out how your meeting with Bogdan really turned out who might eventually got tracked down by Coretech slightly before you finding him. Already late to save him, before death he tells you the password of his safe that he kept from the enemy with the real evidence. So she knew he had to find a way to eliminate you so she made this trap. She's indeed the spy, this whole setup would fit well with that. Of course, against her efforts you fix the elevator, climb back up only to be facing her crossbow - leading to her demise while with her dying breath she admits that she was not all happy that things lead to this... Some players would still be heartbroken, but that would've been a proper goodbye to an NPC, that at least had run it's short, but full course.



This questline had so much potential and if you think about it, making it one of the most memorable one in the game wouldn't take much effort at all, mostly just writing some additional dialogue lines. Too bad they just made it one, if not the worst and most undeveloped quest in the game leaving the player hollow and cheated.
Sorry if my criticism seems kinda harsh, but I tried to back it up with valid reasons and providing possible solutions to the best of my ability.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2020, 02:36:22 pm by Vokial »

nosaM

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Re: Please finish developing the JKK questline (***SPOILERS***)
« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2020, 02:10:25 pm »

 So she knew he had to find a way to eliminate you so he made this trap. She's a spy, this whole setup would fit well with that. Of course, against her efforts you fix the elevator, climb back up only to be facing her crossbow - leading to her demise while she admits that she ws not all happy that things lead to this... That would've been a proper goodbye to an NPC, that at least had run it's short, but full course.

If they were to rework the questline in such way there could probably be a persuasion, intimidation or maybe even a thought control skill check. After they finish infusion they might come back and rework, this game or who knows they might just port the base game to the updated engine with a few reworks, but right now the base game probably is not the priority to receive any more major updates after the next one. But if all of this was to happen it would probably be soonTM. Stupid unsupported characters cutting off my post!

This questline had so much potential and if you think about it, making it one of the most memorable one in the game wouldn't take much effort at all, mostly just writing some additional dialogue lines. Too bad, they just made it one, if not the worst and most undeveloped quest in the game leaving the player hollow and cheated.
Sorry if my criticism seems kinda harsh, but I tried to back it up with valid reasons and providing possible solutions to the best of my ability.

While I do agree that the JKK questline is undeveloped, and should be reworked. I'd have to disagree about the ending it was uniquely bitter as Styg Probably intended, and it should stay like that. Also keep in mind not all art is made to provoke good emotions.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2020, 02:28:47 pm by squirrelsforimprovisedbeating »

Vokial

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Re: Please finish developing the JKK questline (***SPOILERS***)
« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2020, 02:45:05 pm »
While I do agree that the JKK questline is undeveloped, and should be reworked. I'd have to disagree about the ending it was uniquely bitter as Styg Probably intended, and it should stay like that. Also keep in mind not all art is made to provoke good emotions.

As I mentioned above on more than one occasion, I don't have any problem with sad endings if they're fitting. The frustration comes from the fact that even after the first appearance of this quest, and many updates later (one actually named "Factions"), they never finished developing this questline and it feels like it was left in a pre-alpha abandoned state. Where they already decided that there will be 3 quests for each faction, programize the first and last panels of each and then move on to work on different parts of the game, finish those and release a product with a certain area that they completely forgot to finish. Realizing this 10 minutes before launch, they get angry at themselves, literally type out their annoyment in Ola's dialogue at the end, and call it a day. And the questline that fell victim is the one that had such huge potential makes it really sad.

I mean imagine, if you would see this happening in a movie. Two main roles team up, everything's going well, then suddenly out of nowhere, there's a cut and you get some support telling you that one of the main, impactful roles that we just had a major cliffhanger are hereby not comming back anymore. Oh, she died. Fell down the stairs one morning. No biggie. No, there won't even be a scene where she gets written out, she's not part of this film anymore - end of story. Shut up and focus on the rest of the movie!
It's like if the actor somehow suddenly had a fatal accident or had an unresolvable issue with the producers and were kicked out in the middle of shooting the movie and the director's like "ooohh, what do we do now??" But even then, they do something to mitigate the damage, reuse previously recorded scenes, here they made zero effort. It's just bad, since the game does not display something like this elswhere, there are decent quests all around, making this one really stand out by how badly it's done.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2020, 03:18:17 pm by Vokial »

harperfan7

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Re: Please finish developing the JKK questline (***SPOILERS***)
« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2020, 03:08:08 pm »
I haven't pieced it all together yet, but there are clues as to what's going on.  Bogdan's apartment in the residential area (not drop zone, the one up by your house) has a note saying "they're looking for you, lay low" or something along those lines.  Luben, the coretech guy who stole the gadget from coretech, says Ola hired him; later on he can be found dead in the sewers as a smoking corpse.  I think Ola/JKK learned that coretech got a fancy important new gizmo, so they turned a coretech agent and got him to try and steal it, only he didnt actually know about the cube so he stole what he thought they wanted.  Vivian is Mykola's daughter, which gives us reason to believe she infiltrated an oligarchy faction with the intent of bringing them down (which might be what got her done in; and that's assuming she did get done in rather than realize the trap you fell in was meant for her and ghost everybody once she got you out).  Ola clearly lies to you about the warehouse mission; I think he was in on the mercenaries attacking it (again, they probably were looking for the cube).  I think somebody mentions the mercenaries were from somewhere else, not core city, maybe the north?  I think Joe de Pacino and his mercs are from out of town as well, and they have UN dollars in their safe (and use energy weapons and have shield emitters; which I think are more common in the north, especially with hexagon).  Also, what the hell was Raul doing in Zaman's lair? 

Lots to think about.
*eurobeat intensifies*

nosaM

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Re: Please finish developing the JKK questline (***SPOILERS***)
« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2020, 03:59:12 pm »
While I do agree that the JKK questline is undeveloped, and should be reworked. I'd have to disagree about the ending it was uniquely bitter as Styg Probably intended, and it should stay like that. Also keep in mind not all art is made to provoke good emotions.

As I mentioned above on more than one occasion, I don't have any problem with sad endings if they're fitting. The frustration comes from the fact that even after the first appearance of this quest, and many updates later (one actually named "Factions"), they never finished developing this questline and it feels like it was left in a pre-alpha abandoned state. Where they already decided that there will be 3 quests for each faction, programize the first and last panels of each and then move on to work on different parts of the game, finish those and release a product with a certain area that they completely forgot to finish. Realizing this 10 minutes before launch, they get angry at themselves, literally type out their annoyment in Ola's dialogue at the end, and call it a day. And the questline that fell victim is the one that had such huge potential makes it really sad.

Yeah the JKK questline does feel uniquely unfinished when compared to the other questlines I am not defending that. Having only 3 quest really makes the JKK feel unfinished due to how the first quest is. You don't get any dialogue from Bogdan which does not help the quest at all. Then you go straight to the warehouse mission, nothing in the middle of that it just kills the pacing.

I mean imagine, if you would see this happening in a movie. Two main roles team up, everything's going well, then suddenly out of nowhere, there's a cut and you get some support telling you that one of the main, impactful roles that we just had a major cliffhanger are hereby not comming back anymore. Oh, she died. Fell down the stairs one morning. No biggie. No, there won't even be a scene where she gets written out, she's not part of this film anymore - end of story. Shut up and focus on the rest of the movie!
It's like if the actor somehow suddenly had a fatal accident or had an unresolvable issue with the producers and were kicked out in the middle of shooting the movie and the director's like "ooohh, what do we do now??" But even then, they do something to mitigate the damage, reuse previously recorded scenes, here they made zero effort. It's just bad, since the game does not display something like this elswhere, there are decent quests all around, making this one really stand out by how badly it's done.

I was not saying the ending was done well, it was done really badly.

destroyor

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Re: Please finish developing the JKK questline (***SPOILERS***)
« Reply #5 on: May 22, 2020, 10:48:10 pm »
I haven't pieced it all together yet, but there are clues as to what's going on.  Bogdan's apartment in the residential area (not drop zone, the one up by your house) has a note saying "they're looking for you, lay low" or something along those lines.  Luben, the coretech guy who stole the gadget from coretech, says Ola hired him; later on he can be found dead in the sewers as a smoking corpse.  I think Ola/JKK learned that coretech got a fancy important new gizmo, so they turned a coretech agent and got him to try and steal it, only he didnt actually know about the cube so he stole what he thought they wanted.  Vivian is Mykola's daughter, which gives us reason to believe she infiltrated an oligarchy faction with the intent of bringing them down (which might be what got her done in; and that's assuming she did get done in rather than realize the trap you fell in was meant for her and ghost everybody once she got you out).  Ola clearly lies to you about the warehouse mission; I think he was in on the mercenaries attacking it (again, they probably were looking for the cube).  I think somebody mentions the mercenaries were from somewhere else, not core city, maybe the north?  I think Joe de Pacino and his mercs are from out of town as well, and they have UN dollars in their safe (and use energy weapons and have shield emitters; which I think are more common in the north, especially with hexagon).  Also, what the hell was Raul doing in Zaman's lair? 

Lots to think about.

I've seen and experienced everything mentioned except for the smoking corpse but never piece them all together, good job! As for Vivian ghosting I don't think that's the case because Ola wouldn't react/talk to you the way he did when you asked about Vivian.

harperfan7

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Re: Please finish developing the JKK questline (***SPOILERS***)
« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2020, 02:03:19 am »
I've seen and experienced everything mentioned except for the smoking corpse but never piece them all together, good job! As for Vivian ghosting I don't think that's the case because Ola wouldn't react/talk to you the way he did when you asked about Vivian.

My theory is he (or somebody in JKK, but he's in on it) rigged that floor grate to collapse when somebody stood on it, and it was right in front of the lever needed to turn that thing on.  Vivian was suspected of being a spy, and since she's a known mechanic (Mykola is a mechanic, like father like daughter), they could send her to "fix" it (probably they rigged whatever it is to be broken in the first place).  Is there anything in-game that makes you think Ola/JKK even knows that you went with her?  I honestly can't remember but I just did JKK again this run and I don't recall anything that ruins this theory. 

She asks you to go along either because she likes you or perhaps she suspects a trap so she wants the new guy (who she's been real friendly with) there to test the waters for her or help her in case it's an ambush.  You fall in the trap instead and she realizes it was meant for her.  She sticks around to help you get out, then either lays low (like Bogdan) or flees the city.  Ola doesn't know you went with her; you ask him where she is and he says she's gone; he thinks she fell through the trap and is dead or stuck down there.  He knows she was real friendly with you and wants to test your reaction.  Remember; he's a liar and a bad guy in general; you can't just assume he's telling the truth.  If you tell him you don't care and you didn't like her anyway, he's thrown off, but he still doesn't say how she died or what happened to her or even that she is dead.

Or she could just be dead; I don't think there's any actual evidence either way.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2020, 02:06:09 am by harperfan7 »
*eurobeat intensifies*

destroyor

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Re: Please finish developing the JKK questline (***SPOILERS***)
« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2020, 07:36:46 pm »
If you push Ola for an answer he'll tell you she's a spy and she's "gone" (strongly hinting she's dead).
Think about it, if you are Ola, Vivian is still out there ghosting, and the newbie (shown to be a powerful and resourceful one man army) is pushing you for news about her - you wouldn't tell the newbie outright Vivian is dead. You would have try to fish for information and/or try to turn the newbie against Vivian hoping the newbie will try to track her down for you. This is why I think Vivian is dead because Ola didn't try to do any of the above.