Author Topic: Psi crab coak is not worth it.  (Read 4023 times)

slyguy65

  • Probably not a Spambot
  • *
  • Posts: 34
  • Karma: +4/-46
    • View Profile
Psi crab coak is not worth it.
« on: June 21, 2020, 01:25:19 am »
The insane armor penalty is not with the extra resistances as well as the measly 2 psi extra regen. Not to mention the base weight of it just makes carrying stuff more of a hassle.

harperfan7

  • Oculite
  • Godman
  • **
  • Posts: 1360
  • Karma: +201/-352
    • View Profile
Re: Psi crab coak is not worth it.
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2020, 01:36:18 am »
It has the 2nd best mechanical protection, but has 20% higher penalty.
It has good electricity protection; stacks with galvanic.
It has some heat protection, nice but not vital.
It grants a higher bonus to psi skills than psi beetle carapaces. 
Regen really isn't very good, that's true, but if it granted the psi cost reduction I'm not sure there'd be any reason to use anything else as a psi character unless you want to be nimble.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2020, 02:45:20 am by harperfan7 »
*eurobeat intensifies*

slyguy65

  • Probably not a Spambot
  • *
  • Posts: 34
  • Karma: +4/-46
    • View Profile
Re: Psi crab coak is not worth it.
« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2020, 04:52:37 pm »
Perhaps I should clarify. REGEN psi crab feels not worth it.

I am not trying to be a tank that can't move at all since I need all my AP to mage cast. The 85-95% burden and sheer weight is totally counter to what a "mid range" armor type should be.

I can't use riot or heavy armors cause 3 STR. So when I get a nice tactical vest that I CAN wear, it just says "lol fuck you no moving around". Seems overly punishing, its just more practical to stick with a psi beetle regen vest with blast or kevlar. Also, elec damage seems beyond useless. Unless the faceless or something does electric damage I don't see the point, since the only electric damage I see being dished out is "energy" damage. So ya, seems pointless i.e not worth the 0 movement points.

Speaking on psi related gear, why the hell does the only psi weapons (native staves) require 5 fucking strength? In this game, that punishes hybrids and empowers pure builds. Why? Why do that? A mage isn't supposed to have strength. This mixed with the overly heavy and restrictive psi crab vest makes me think its just poorly balance gameplay wise.

harperfan7

  • Oculite
  • Godman
  • **
  • Posts: 1360
  • Karma: +201/-352
    • View Profile
Re: Psi crab coak is not worth it.
« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2020, 05:16:07 pm »
You dont need 5 str to hold the weapon, just to attack with it without penalty. 

Psicrab is for mages who want as much defense as possible, or for people going up against coil spiders without the tesla armor.  If that's not you, stick to the psi beetle carapace.  Actually, now that I think about it, you could get really good electricity AND heat protection with a galvanic antithermic psi crab vest.  So it would be great for burning shores for instance. 
*eurobeat intensifies*

slyguy65

  • Probably not a Spambot
  • *
  • Posts: 34
  • Karma: +4/-46
    • View Profile
Re: Psi crab coak is not worth it.
« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2020, 05:52:32 pm »
You dont need 5 str to hold the weapon, just to attack with it without penalty. 

Psicrab is for mages who want as much defense as possible, or for people going up against coil spiders without the tesla armor.  If that's not you, stick to the psi beetle carapace.  Actually, now that I think about it, you could get really good electricity AND heat protection with a galvanic antithermic psi crab vest.  So it would be great for burning shores for instance.

First off, WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Ive been conditioned by games that red text and the word "requirements" means no go. Ill just chalk it up to another "you should have this insider info" moment the game likes to have.

Secondly, I agree with what you are saying. However that is kind of my point with calling it "not worth it". I don't think its useless by any means. However I don't have high strength, even WITH rathound feat I get easily encumbered if I loot stuff. The fact people actively encourage cheating in the game at least in regards to carry capacity tells me balance is an issue.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=843557165
For reference to "encouraging cheating"

Psi crab is just too damn heavy, and you lose all movement, its overly punishing for how niche it is. Coil spiders I think I only encountered two times in the eniter game? I haven't finished institute of chort since I read that doing so triggers an abrupt "point of no return" so maybe there are more areas.

Either way, generally speaking, gear; especially unique gear, is so hyper niche in its usage. I have no issue with this, however couple it with the very limiting carry capacity for psi players and you have frustration. I would in fact use/carry the psi crab vest around with me, if it weren't so similar to my psi beetle coat that gives me a fair bit of movement mixed with tabi boots.

I am speaking as a first time player on normal who is already fed up with the tedium that carry capacity and merchant mechanics bring. Having to go back to my "armor" stash to switch out armors is something I am not going to do, and will instead choose the best "all rounder". Which psi crab seems like it should be the "upgrade" to psi beetle given its blue rarity name and similar properties, however its not since the trade off is what I can only call obnoxious in comparison.

Stavrophore

  • Zoner
  • **
  • Posts: 68
  • Karma: +1/-13
    • View Profile
Re: Psi crab coak is not worth it.
« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2020, 01:06:25 am »
It is indeed shit, even with armor sloping. 80% penalty is absurd, i guess its only viable for psi tank.

newageofpower

  • Scavenger
  • ***
  • Posts: 145
  • Karma: +13/-14
    • View Profile
Re: Psi crab coak is not worth it.
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2020, 09:09:43 pm »
Penalties is "bad" for -most- builds. Specialized builds can dump mobility or whatever and often can abuse a red stat.

Stavrophore

  • Zoner
  • **
  • Posts: 68
  • Karma: +1/-13
    • View Profile
Re: Psi crab coak is not worth it.
« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2020, 12:54:15 am »
Problem is, it doesn't pay off. The percentage decrease of psi cost is better than +2 Regen.

harperfan7

  • Oculite
  • Godman
  • **
  • Posts: 1360
  • Karma: +201/-352
    • View Profile
Re: Psi crab coak is not worth it.
« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2020, 01:03:21 am »
Do you think it should be -10% cost as well?  or instead of +2 regen?
*eurobeat intensifies*

destroyor

  • Oculite
  • Tchortist
  • **
  • Posts: 484
  • Karma: +80/-29
    • View Profile
Re: Psi crab coak is not worth it.
« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2020, 02:33:05 am »
At that kind of armor penalty psi crab regen needs to be way higher - something like 50% psi bar regen to feel worth it.
Alternatively it should just offer a higher psi cost reduction like 15%.

TheAverageGortsby

  • Faceless
  • *****
  • Posts: 821
  • Karma: +196/-40
    • View Profile
Re: Psi crab coak is not worth it.
« Reply #10 on: July 21, 2020, 02:50:58 am »
At that kind of armor penalty psi crab regen needs to be way higher - something like 50% psi bar regen to feel worth it.
Alternatively it should just offer a higher psi cost reduction like 15%.
Are you forgetting how insane the protection value is from the carapace?  It's basically an anti-rifle plate that's also strongly fire and electricity resistant, with higher psi skill boost caps than beetle carapace (same scaling, higher quality cap).  Sure, 2 regen is nothing compared to 10% cost reduction, but armor penalty be damned, psi crab carapace turns you into a tank.

And psi haste ignores armor penalty, so you can still move around just fine in it when you need to.  If it had 5% cost reduction I'd use it in all my psi builds as a carry-around-for-dangerous-places suit with Kevlar cloth, netting me a bullet DT around 120-140, and wear a stealthy or antithermic psi beetle overcoat for normal waltzing around.

destroyor

  • Oculite
  • Tchortist
  • **
  • Posts: 484
  • Karma: +80/-29
    • View Profile
Re: Psi crab coak is not worth it.
« Reply #11 on: July 21, 2020, 04:14:09 am »
fixed = value are fixed at given number regardless of quality of component used.


Tactical Vest

Psi Beetle
+10 Mechanical DT (depends on Q: +4 @Q23, +10 @Q103)
+20% Armor penalty (fixed)
Psi cost -10% (fixed)
Psi skill +25 (depends on Q: +6 @Q23, +25 @Q103)


Psi Crab
+25 Mechanical DT (depends on Q: +20 @Q121, +25 @Q158)
+Heat 20%/5 (fixed)
+Electricity 36%/20 (depends on Q: 31%/17 @Q121, 36%/20 @Q158)
+70% Armor penalty (fixed)
Psi regen +2 (fixed)
Psi skill +39 (depends on Q: +29 @Q121, +39 @Q158)


Assuming best case scenerio and basic mech DT increase of 200% against shells and bullets, when you are using psi crab instead of psi beetle carapace

You gain:
+15 mechanical DT
+45 additional mech DT against shells and bullets
+Heat 20%/5
+Electricity 36%/20
psi regen +2
+14 higher psi skill

You lose:
psi cost -10%
+50% Armor penalty
I don't think that's a fair trade. Do you?



Riot Gear

Psi Beetle
35% chance (fixed) to block up to 36 (depends on Q) mechanical damage
+7% Armor penalty (fixed)
min 4 STR (fixed)
Psi cost -10% (fixed)
Psi skill +25 (depends on Q: +6 @Q23, +25 @Q103)


Psi Crab
35% chance (fixed) to block up to 56 (depends on Q) mechanical damage
+24% Armor penalty (fixed)
min 5 STR (fixed)
Psi regen +2 (fixed)
Psi skill +39 (depends on Q: +29 @Q121, +39 @Q158)


I don't think full psi should use Riot Gear due to the STR requirement but whatever let's do a comparsion too.

It's important to note the shield does not impact the actual mech resist and threshold of the armor at all here. Psi crab does NOT grant you heat/electricity resist/threshold.

Assuming best case scenerio,

You gain:
+20 mechanical damage to blocking
+2 psi regen
+14 higher psi skill

You lose:
+1 additional STR requirement
psi cost -10% reduction.
+17% armor penalty
Again I don't think that's a fair trade. Do you?

harperfan7

  • Oculite
  • Godman
  • **
  • Posts: 1360
  • Karma: +201/-352
    • View Profile
Re: Psi crab coak is not worth it.
« Reply #12 on: July 21, 2020, 04:34:11 am »
I think it's fair.  You gain a lot in exchange for speed/dodge/evasion and spending more psi points.  Just pick what you would rather have.
*eurobeat intensifies*

TheAverageGortsby

  • Faceless
  • *****
  • Posts: 821
  • Karma: +196/-40
    • View Profile
Re: Psi crab coak is not worth it.
« Reply #13 on: July 21, 2020, 04:48:16 am »
I don't think that's a fair trade. Do you?
For the tac vest, it's close.  That's why I said if it had 5% psi cost reduction I'd be all over it. You also show a lot of numbers but aren't really appearing to consider actual use cases.

Why are we assuming basic 200% bullet resist?  If we're not using Kevlar, what are we using?  Not black cloth - the armor penalty is so high we're not sneaking in this thing no matter what.  Aluminized?  Then the heat resist from the cloth stacks with the psi crab, getting us to 70%/25.  Since standing in flames is now capped on damage rather than being a flat % of max health, that means you can safely stand in fire and take no damage, which could be a big deal if you like molotovs and also are Tranq specced, or if you use Exothermic Aura defensively a lot and end up standing in the lake of fire you generated even after the ability wears off.  Also makes the Industrial Bot fights trivial since their flamethrowers won't much bother you, even without Metathermics in your build.  But maybe we're using Kevlar cloth after all.  In that case, it's pretty easy to get bullet DT over 120, making you fundamentally immune to pistols and SMGs and most ARs.  That means when you're fighting groups of enemies with firearm weapons, you can safely ignore several opponents.  That makes some fights a whole lot easier, tactically and mechanically.

And really, who cares about armor penalty?  You're not wearing this to sneak, and if you're so fully psi that you're wearing psi tac vests you don't really have much investment in dodge or evasion.  So, what?  Move points?  Like I said, psi haste ignores armor penalty, and moving around in real-time mode doesn't appear to be affected by armor penalty.  So you're only slow on the turns when you can afford to be slow.  Heck, if you went into it expecting to use psi crab, you maybe even picked up Sprint to go with psi haste, in which case you're highly mobile even with 95% armor penalty.

Even without considering optimized cases, there are further advantages that the psi crab brings.  Tac vests are notoriously garbage against melee attacks, but with the extra threshold from crab you can survive stealth ambushes a little better, especially when stacked with the effective threshold of Cryo-Shield (which presumably a cautious psi player keeps up when walking around unknown areas).  Electric resist is hard to come by, but crab carapace offers a fairly decent amount of it, and with galvanic vest and galvanic padded boots can get the player up well over 60%/30, which is a fair bit of protection.

Is it worth it to me? No, I don't use it; everything it offers all combined isn't worth just the 10% cost reduction alone to me, because I've played this game so much I only get hit when I want to so armor rating is purely academic.  But with 5% reduction, I'd use it, and for people who aren't fully savants about the game, maybe it's worth it even as it is, since it does offer a lot of survivability that beetle doesn't.

destroyor

  • Oculite
  • Tchortist
  • **
  • Posts: 484
  • Karma: +80/-29
    • View Profile
Re: Psi crab coak is not worth it.
« Reply #14 on: July 21, 2020, 04:50:31 am »
I like to look at this and ask at what cost and compare to what.

For SI psychosis psi I like to use sturdy + super steel plate + psi beetle tact vest @35% armor penalty. You are a glass cannon, low mobility and/or tanking is not an option here, so psi crab is out.

For Tran psi tanking is an option, regen vest is very effective here. Regen + super steel plate + psi beetle tact vest = 40% armor penalty which is still pretty mobile. However if you use psi crab you are looking at minimum 80% armor penalty (sturdy vest, no SS plate) and maximum 95% armor penalty (regen vest, SS plate, Kelvar cloth) which is ridiculous. You might as well use high grade infused Sea Wyrm/Leper leather armor + boot armor set for melee immunity, 55%+ mech resist and possible acid immunity. The armor penalty cost of psi crab in this specific case is way too high and inferior compare to the other available options.