Alternatives to Lockpicking/Hacking

[Rubric Sorcerer]

I recently finished a playthrough of the game and pondered something that I felt might be worth consideration for future updates. Namely, the idea of alternative options for opening containers and doorways becoming available to the player character through items that can be found or created within the game world under the idea of allowing for greater utility for non-stealth invested characters, or for a greater diversity in builds to not have to take these two skills which provide the only means of opening containers or locked doors.

One of the primary manifestations of this idea was having a sort of power saw, or welder, that can be used to "cut" the locks off of doors or lockpicking containers. A heavy, intensively energy-consuming tool that is very loud and can only open things up to a certain level. Perhaps even having a strength, electronics, or mechanics check involved so as to make it even less of an appealing of an option in regards to lockpicking. Something similar for hacking as well, a pre-made script loaded haxxor the size of a PC tower or even just a heavy soddering iron that scans the container and tells you where to cut, with it's own form of electronic or attribute skill check.  Alternative ideas I had but were more fleeting than these two would be something like using biology or chemistry to create specific acid-base combinations to open containers through a more scientific brute-force option, but on those I am not sure how you might make a skill requirement outside the initial crafting or application to prevent it from destroying an item or items within the container.

[TheAverageGortsby]

Honestly, this just sounds like complexity for complexity's sake.  Not a big fan.  No builds are so starved for skill points that they can't get some Lockpicking and Hacking.  Even if you are a 3 Dex, 3 Int build, 50 points in each plus buffs will get you 80-90% of all unlocks in the game, and every build has 100 points to spare.  As it is, anything locked that blocks quest progression can be circumvented in a variety of ways - keys, alternate routes, that sort of thing.  There's nothing anywhere in the game that you have to have, which can only be accessed by hacking or picking something. 

If you make it so X can stand in for Y, then there's no longer a need to have Y.  Without Lockpicking-only interactions, there's no point in having Lockpicking.

[Rubric Sorcerer]

Honestly, this just sounds like complexity for complexity's sake.  Not a big fan.  No builds are so starved for skill points that they can't get some Lockpicking and Hacking.  Even if you are a 3 Dex, 3 Int build, 50 points in each plus buffs will get you 80-90% of all unlocks in the game, and every build has 100 points to spare.  As it is, anything locked that blocks quest progression can be circumvented in a variety of ways - keys, alternate routes, that sort of thing.  There's nothing anywhere in the game that you have to have, which can only be accessed by hacking or picking something. 

If you make it so X can stand in for Y, then there's no longer a need to have Y.  Without Lockpicking-only interactions, there's no point in having Lockpicking.

I can't dismiss that it's another layer of complexity that could easily become somewhat tedious, but the point in where it comes in is less about builds being starved for points and more that Lockpicking and Hacking are the only methods of opening large numbers of containers and shortcuts. They're excessively good skills, to the point that I believe that without alternative options to do the same thing or something similar, they sit in a niche of being de facto mandatory in the face of how singularly useful they are in comparison to the vast majority of other skills. Nothing else does what they do, and even with this suggestion you could argue nothing will do what they do quite as well.

[Elite]

I have also thought about this, and it's an easy rabbit hole to fall into. I'm all for more variety, but you have to cut it off somewhere. You also have to be careful to not trivialize existing skills in the process.

Without going down an endless rabbit hole, there are two new methods I would be in favor of. One, as you mention, could be a strength check. This could scale with the required lockpick / hack to open.

Another one might be sacrificing a grenade to try and blow the container open as sort of a last ditch effort. Though something like this is prone to abuse by save-scumming.

[Crows]

I have also thought about this, and it's an easy rabbit hole to fall into. I'm all for more variety, but you have to cut it off somewhere. You also have to be careful to not trivialize existing skills in the process.

Without going down an endless rabbit hole, there are two new methods I would be in favor of. One, as you mention, could be a strength check. This could scale with the required lockpick / hack to open.

Another one might be sacrificing a grenade to try and blow the container open as sort of a last ditch effort. Though something like this is prone to abuse by save-scumming.

Maybe a strength check with a crowbar, only works on some chests? (Footlockers but not electronic boxes, for example)

[Rubric Sorcerer]

I have also thought about this, and it's an easy rabbit hole to fall into. I'm all for more variety, but you have to cut it off somewhere. You also have to be careful to not trivialize existing skills in the process.

Without going down an endless rabbit hole, there are two new methods I would be in favor of. One, as you mention, could be a strength check. This could scale with the required lockpick / hack to open.

Another one might be sacrificing a grenade to try and blow the container open as sort of a last ditch effort. Though something like this is prone to abuse by save-scumming.

Someone, and I apologize for not remembering, in the discord suggested the query of what if there were explosives in the container? I argued, why not, part of the benefit of having something like lockpicking or hacking can be that you don't have that kind of a risk. A major benefit of taking them as skills is that they're not only stealthy, but far, far safer than their alternative options. An explosive entry could detonate something and blow up in your face, an electric one could fry you alive like a downed power cable, chemical could destroy the container and leave it as a giant sputtering puddle of acid.

There's a lot of ways you could theoretically balance the alternatives to make them not so clear-cut appealing. They exist in my hypothetical mind more as ways to diversify builds and allow more interesting interactions with the world than they do to remove the power or validity of lockpicking/hacking.

[Elite]

I have also thought about this, and it's an easy rabbit hole to fall into. I'm all for more variety, but you have to cut it off somewhere. You also have to be careful to not trivialize existing skills in the process.

Without going down an endless rabbit hole, there are two new methods I would be in favor of. One, as you mention, could be a strength check. This could scale with the required lockpick / hack to open.

Another one might be sacrificing a grenade to try and blow the container open as sort of a last ditch effort. Though something like this is prone to abuse by save-scumming.

Someone, and I apologize for not remembering, in the discord suggested the query of what if there were explosives in the container? I argued, why not, part of the benefit of having something like lockpicking or hacking can be that you don't have that kind of a risk. A major benefit of taking them as skills is that they're not only stealthy, but far, far safer than their alternative options. An explosive entry could detonate something and blow up in your face, an electric one could fry you alive like a downed power cable, chemical could destroy the container and leave it as a giant sputtering puddle of acid.

There's a lot of ways you could theoretically balance the alternatives to make them not so clear-cut appealing. They exist in my hypothetical mind more as ways to diversify builds and allow more interesting interactions with the world than they do to remove the power or validity of lockpicking/hacking.

It is an interesting way to allow for build that do not take lockpicking / hacking to still have a go at it. But again, you have to be very careful as to not step on the value of those skills in doing so, which may be impossible. If you allow the player to still open containers without having the appropriate skill, you inherently diminish the value of that skill.

Lets say for example that a crate needs 100 lockpick to open, but I don't have a single point in lockpick. I decide to use a carefully placed grenade to blast it open. Unbeknownst to me, the crate contained a cache of MK III Plasma Grenades and I get turned to ash. Let's also say for argument's sake that for any given lockpick / hacking requirement, the difficulty of "forcing" open a container increases.

So, for the 100 lockpick crate I just mentioned that difficulty might be somewhere around 30% chance to open, with the other 70% being that the contents of the crate are destroyed. For the more difficult hacks and lockpicks (130) the fail percentage could be as high as 95%, or maybe more.

However

All of this is meaningless due to the nature of the game. What is stopping me from reloading over and over again until I don't fail? By doing this, it is possible I open every container in the game without having a single point in lockpick or hacking, rendering them worthless.

You can say "Well then just don't abuse it" or "People won't do that". While I personally would not abuse it, the fact of the matter is that it opens the avenue to cheesing all containers and making two skills useless.

The only way to stop this would be if Underrail pre-rolled all your chances the second you started a run. Even so, you still get to open containers you otherwise would not have been able to, diminishing the value of lockpick / hacking significantly.

With all of that in mind, I would not be in favor of a system like this unless Underrail got a complete overhaul in how it handles lockpicking / hacking and save-scumming.

[sapient fungus]

One of the CAU psycos breaks lock in Underpassages with chemical puff. Why not made player summon puffs too? Regular acid for locks under 60, rusting acid (not so ready available) for 60+.

[Elite]

One of the CAU psycos breaks lock in Underpassages with chemical puff. Why not made player summon puffs too? Regular acid for locks under 60, rusting acid (not so ready available) for 60+.

Because that still trivializes the lockpick skill. Even if I'm a melee character all I need to do is pickup a chemical pistol (doesn't take long to get one) a now I can open most locks up to mid-game areas.

[Cyrano]

I do agree it would be interesting to have an alternative, I personally like the idea of just being able to blow up lockers/boxes with explosives and risk losing non-plot items that might be inside. It would be an okay tradeoff for not having the requisite skills normally needed to open them. I also agree, however, that it would add an unnecessary level of complexity to the game, as the guy above already pointed out you have plenty of skill points to spare so at the very least you should have enough points for one of the two skills anyways so it would probably be redundant.