Looking to make a Spear build need help/tips

[saryn228]

https://underrail.info/build/?AQgHBwQEBQUAAAAPDw8ADw8AAA8PAAAPAAAAAAAAADkm378

That is what I threw together so far. I am going to be playing on Normal with classic XP. I have never used a spear build before and was hoping to use stuff such as Fend and Sweep. Specifically took Opportunist for Sweep but I am thinking that might not be worth it in the end if i might not be able to take advantage of it or end up not using it as much.

I also was not sure if Dex was really needed for this either and would be willing to drop points from it for more into another stat. I do not plan to use traps or sneak at all as I have not really been a fan of how trap/sneak builds have worked in the passed for me.

Any advice or tweaks are accepted!

[TheAverageGortsby]

That stat profile is causing me anxiety.  Sure, on Normal you can do that, but you can optimize your character a lot more if you drop your Con and Per to 3 (there's never a good reason to have a stat at 4 unless after building your level 1 character you had one stat point left over) and also your Will.  Then you've got four more points to play with so you can top off your Strength for better stabbyness.  Maybe add a point or two to Int since you've got 4 skills already that feed from it, and presumably you'll add one more at least.

Dodge and Evasion are reduced by your armor penalty percentage, so for a heavy weapon no-stealth build, I'm not sure I'd bother with either one very much.  Maybe get bare minimums to qualify for feats, but probably not much beyond that.

Temporal Manipulation is really very helpful even for a 3 Will, minimum-investment character.  If it fits your character concept, you might want to get at least enough TM to get the psi haste and Psychotemporal Acceleration feat.  Even at 0 skill, Temporal Distortion is very helpful for melee builds in the early game, also; and everyone benefits from LTI.

[saryn228]

That stat profile is causing me anxiety.  Sure, on Normal you can do that, but you can optimize your character a lot more if you drop your Con and Per to 3 (there's never a good reason to have a stat at 4 unless after building your level 1 character you had one stat point left over) and also your Will.  Then you've got four more points to play with so you can top off your Strength for better stabbyness.  Maybe add a point or two to Int since you've got 4 skills already that feed from it, and presumably you'll add one more at least.

Dodge and Evasion are reduced by your armor penalty percentage, so for a heavy weapon no-stealth build, I'm not sure I'd bother with either one very much.  Maybe get bare minimums to qualify for feats, but probably not much beyond that.

Temporal Manipulation is really very helpful even for a 3 Will, minimum-investment character.  If it fits your character concept, you might want to get at least enough TM to get the psi haste and Psychotemporal Acceleration feat.  Even at 0 skill, Temporal Distortion is very helpful for melee builds in the early game, also; and everyone benefits from LTI.

I am very unsure about using psi at all in this build. TD looks nice and so does LTI but I am not really a fan of psi after running a psi build to core city... (depot ruined my opinion of psi) Taking psy emp and losing max HP does not feel very useful if the next roadblock after dealing with the first set of rat hounds in the generators is the beetles... Those beetles very easily caused me a headache in multiple saves I have made. Depot is usually where the builds I have tried out die regardless if I make it through or not. Maybe there is a huge thing I don't know about PSI prior to depot but It was nice for a moment when I was able to easily deal with problems but then got to be annoying when literally anyone could kill me easily or my psi damage felt super low.

As for dropping CON. I am no expert but if I am already running melee wouldn't any hit to CON be terrible? 4 is already pushing it IMO but i was thinking of dropping will to boost it. Also not sure if I need 7 DEX and was going to use those points for either INT or PER. I understand I am not using traps. But wouldn't having 3 PER be a terrible idea when dealing with mines? If I cannot detect them how am I going to deal with them as a melee build.

lastly I kind of took the dodge and evasion for dealing with the beginning when armor is much much too expensive to buy. Is it really worth it to drop that even if its just to get me passed the beginning rat hounds and dude in the bunker (generator quest)

[Tahoefox]

Here is what I would start with for a spear/shield build. I had no trouble completing the game on normal with this, but it isn't optimized for higher difficulties.

https://underrail.info/build/?AQoFBgcDAwYADwAPAA8ADw8AAA8PAAAPAAAAAAAAADlV378

Spear/shield builds will naturally have good melee defense so you won't need Dodge. Evasion can help against ranged attacks and grenades, but I would take Nimble and eventually Body Wight Training if you also plan to take Juggernaut. Make sure you craft armor with exactly 50% penalty if you plan to go this route.

[saryn228]

Here is what I would start with for a spear/shield build. I had no trouble completing the game on normal with this, but it isn't optimized for higher difficulties.

https://underrail.info/build/?AQoFBgcDAwYADwAPAA8ADw8AAA8PAAAPAAAAAAAAADlV378

Spear/shield builds will naturally have good melee defense so you won't need Dodge. Evasion can help against ranged attacks and grenades, but I would take Nimble and eventually Body Wight Training if you also plan to take Juggernaut. Make sure you craft armor with exactly 50% penalty if you plan to go this route.

This looks interesting though I am not really sure where to get shields.. never really made it much further than depot in any build I have tried out.

[Turbodevil]

Evasion can help against ranged attacks and grenades, but I would take Nimble and eventually Body Wight Training if you also plan to take Juggernaut. Make sure you craft armor with exactly 50% penalty if you plan to go this route.

Lightest Riot Gear + Tungsten shield (it has most dmg) has 46% armor penalty. More if you want regenrative vests, metal helmets and/or metal boots. Do not get evasion. Spend points on melee, throwing, electronics and other crafting/subterfurge skills. Skip armor penalty feats, get Sprint and Psycho-temporal Acceleration. Craft cave hopper stealth armor for stealth sections.

[Turbodevil]

I am very unsure about using psi at all in this build. TD looks nice and so does LTI

In the mid-end game most of your attacks (spear throw, shield bash, sweep, impale) will have cooldowns so LTI is great. You can taki psi later in game if you struggle with first section.

As for dropping CON. I am no expert but if I am already running melee wouldn't any hit to CON be terrible? 4 is already pushing it IMO but i was thinking of dropping will to boost it.

CON is good

Also not sure if I need 7 DEX and was going to use those points for either INT or PER.

Spear has great synergy with grenades as you invest in throwing for Spear Throw. You might consider 7 DEX for Three pointer feat, so your grenades one shot some targets on crit.

I understand I am not using traps. But wouldn't having 3 PER be a terrible idea when dealing with mines? If I cannot detect them how am I going to deal with them as a melee build.

Quick save + quick load Or high CON + blast gear.

lastly I kind of took the dodge and evasion for dealing with the beginning when armor is much much too expensive to buy. Is it really worth it to drop that even if its just to get me passed the beginning rat hounds and dude in the bunker (generator quest)

Rathounds will be a breeze due to inbuilt spear guard bonus (effective 50% less damage from low level melee enemies).

[Tahoefox]

This looks interesting though I am not really sure where to get shields.. never really made it much further than depot in any build I have tried out.

Shields are actually part of riot gear. You'll have to craft your own, you can buy the blueprint for it from Len in Junkyard.

Lightest Riot Gear + Tungsten shield (it has most dmg) has 46% armor penalty. More if you want regenrative vests, metal helmets and/or metal boots. Do not get evasion. Spend points on melee, throwing, electronics and other crafting/subterfurge skills. Skip armor penalty feats, get Sprint and Psycho-temporal Acceleration. Craft cave hopper stealth armor for stealth sections.

Regenerative riot gear with supersteel shield is exactly 50% armor penalty if you have Armor Sloping. You don't need tungsten if you take Boarding Up and Shield Arm.

Metal boots aren't an option because you need the AP cost reduction from tabis to attack twice and throw a spear every turn. A metal helmet is probably not as useful as night vision detection goggles, because they can help low Perception characters spot traps. If you wear 50% penalty riot gear, taking Nimble and Body Weight Training will bring you down to 25% penalty. You won't have the highest Evasion ever, but it will be enough to keep grenades and mines from instantly killing you.

Spear/shield blocks melee attacks, Evasion helps you avoid ranged and AOE, and Juggernaut gives you enough health to tank anything that actually hits you.

In the mid-end game most of your attacks (spear throw, shield bash, sweep, impale) will have cooldowns so LTI is great. You can taki psi later in game if you struggle with first section.

Temporal Manipulation is extremely strong on basically every build. I tried this build because I had just done a full psi character and I didn't want psi on this one. If I was optimizing for Dominating I would recommend taking it. It's certainly not necessary on normal though.

Edit: I also don't think Shield Bash is worth taking. One turn of Daze against a single target just isn't that strong, especially when you'll have Throwing and enough Chemistry to craft flashbangs.

Another Edit: For reference, this is what I had at the end of the game.
https://underrail.info/build/?HhAFBgcDAwYAwqAAwqAAwqAAc3MAAHh4XwB4AAAAAAAAcyQ5VcKvEsKVwqzClMKTRcKCAMKrD3zCtnnipYoF4rOOAuKzogPis6QD4reJAt-_

[Riggs]

I am very unsure about using psi at all in this build. TD looks nice and so does LTI but I am not really a fan of psi after running a psi build to core city... (depot ruined my opinion of psi) Taking psy emp and losing max HP does not feel very useful if the next roadblock after dealing with the first set of rat hounds in the generators is the beetles... Those beetles very easily caused me a headache in multiple saves I have made. Depot is usually where the builds I have tried out die regardless if I make it through or not. Maybe there is a huge thing I don't know about PSI prior to depot but It was nice for a moment when I was able to easily deal with problems but then got to be annoying when literally anyone could kill me easily or my psi damage felt super low.

Considering that full psi builds are by and large considered the strongest and most versatile builds in the game, you were definitely doing something very wrong with yours. I'm no expert but I've played through the game enough times on Hard/DOMINATING with full Psi builds to know that when built/played correctly it's far easier to be successful with one than most other builds. Furthermore, Psi in Underrail (at least as it stands in the current version, we'll see how badly it gets nerfed in the future) is almost always worth adding into a build if there's room for it because the utility you can get out of it is hugely helpful in almost all situations. The guy to be asking your psi related questions to is TheAverageGortsby - he will definitely have answers for you as there aren't many others around these parts who have as much experience with the ins and outs of Psi in Underrail as he does.

[Turbodevil]

Regenerative riot gear with supersteel shield is exactly 50% armor penalty if you have Armor Sloping. You don't need tungsten if you take Boarding Up and Shield Arm.

Metal boots aren't an option because you need the AP cost reduction from tabis to attack twice and throw a spear every turn. A metal helmet is probably not as useful as night vision detection goggles, because they can help low Perception characters spot traps. If you wear 50% penalty riot gear, taking Nimble and Body Weight Training will bring you down to 25% penalty. You won't have the highest Evasion ever, but it will be enough to keep grenades and mines from instantly killing you.

Spear/shield blocks melee attacks, Evasion helps you avoid ranged and AOE, and Juggernaut gives you enough health to tank anything that actually hits you.

But cost is HUGE. 3 feats and one skill. Having to use subpar shield as well. If you worry about traps you could invest in traps skill to detect them, or use blast/antitermic fabric on your armour. Not saying your approach is objectively bad, you definitely get more defences from evasion, more movements points and ability to use stealth. But you need to go out of your way to achive that and you could easil spend those feats / skill points on something different.

As for tabi action points reduction, meh. Its's 4 AP per round in your scenario. It helps to achieve 2 attacks + throw, but realistically how many turns are like that? I usually move around, open doors, cast spells, throw grenades in between and use medicines. Also, adrenaline shot and psi haste have different breakpoints. Tabis are good and work in your build, sure, and their movement points bonus is great too, but you can get more tanky instead and achieve similar amount of attacks per round without them (at the cost of mobility).

Edit: I also don't think Shield Bash is worth taking. One turn of Daze against a single target just isn't that strong, especially when you'll have Throwing and enough Chemistry to craft flashbangs.

Shield bash is free and have 1 turn cooldown after 5 points of specialisation and have respectable damage (100-200). It makes huge difference, you have 1 (2 with LTI) opportunities to finish off nearby enemy. I wouldn't recommend shield + spear build without it.

[saryn228]

I am very unsure about using psi at all in this build. TD looks nice and so does LTI but I am not really a fan of psi after running a psi build to core city... (depot ruined my opinion of psi) Taking psy emp and losing max HP does not feel very useful if the next roadblock after dealing with the first set of rat hounds in the generators is the beetles... Those beetles very easily caused me a headache in multiple saves I have made. Depot is usually where the builds I have tried out die regardless if I make it through or not. Maybe there is a huge thing I don't know about PSI prior to depot but It was nice for a moment when I was able to easily deal with problems but then got to be annoying when literally anyone could kill me easily or my psi damage felt super low.

Considering that full psi builds are by and large considered the strongest and most versatile builds in the game, you were definitely doing something very wrong with yours. I'm no expert but I've played through the game enough times on Hard/DOMINATING with full Psi builds to know that when built/played correctly it's far easier to be successful with one than most other builds. Furthermore, Psi in Underrail (at least as it stands in the current version, we'll see how badly it gets nerfed in the future) is almost always worth adding into a build if there's room for it because the utility you can get out of it is hugely helpful in almost all situations. The guy to be asking your psi related questions to is TheAverageGortsby - he will definitely have answers for you as there aren't many others around these parts who have as much experience with the ins and outs of Psi in Underrail as he does.

Until you leave depot A you see 0 new psi abilities besides feats. and the acid and rooting was the biggest issue. didn't matter how many barriers I threw up. I was not stopping being rooted and eventually slowly melted to death. also half of the time psi abilities were not doing enough damage to reasonably kill the mutants. I was using a build I got from this forum too so unless there was some magical thing that could change my mind. I don't like psi. Even the doppelganger ability was bad.

[Riggs]

Until you leave depot A you see 0 new psi abilities besides feats. and the acid and rooting was the biggest issue. didn't matter how many barriers I threw up. I was not stopping being rooted and eventually slowly melted to death. also half of the time psi abilities were not doing enough damage to reasonably kill the mutants. I was using a build I got from this forum too so unless there was some magical thing that could change my mind. I don't like psi. Even the doppelganger ability was bad.

All the psi abilities that are available pre-Depot A are more than enough to get you through it. This all just sounds like you entered Depot A too early and without adequate gear. What level were you when you attempted it? I'd be curious to see what build from these forums you were using as well... got a link to it?

[saryn228]

This looks interesting though I am not really sure where to get shields.. never really made it much further than depot in any build I have tried out.

Shields are actually part of riot gear. You'll have to craft your own, you can buy the blueprint for it from Len in Junkyard.

Lightest Riot Gear + Tungsten shield (it has most dmg) has 46% armor penalty. More if you want regenrative vests, metal helmets and/or metal boots. Do not get evasion. Spend points on melee, throwing, electronics and other crafting/subterfurge skills. Skip armor penalty feats, get Sprint and Psycho-temporal Acceleration. Craft cave hopper stealth armor for stealth sections.

Regenerative riot gear with supersteel shield is exactly 50% armor penalty if you have Armor Sloping. You don't need tungsten if you take Boarding Up and Shield Arm.

Metal boots aren't an option because you need the AP cost reduction from tabis to attack twice and throw a spear every turn. A metal helmet is probably not as useful as night vision detection goggles, because they can help low Perception characters spot traps. If you wear 50% penalty riot gear, taking Nimble and Body Weight Training will bring you down to 25% penalty. You won't have the highest Evasion ever, but it will be enough to keep grenades and mines from instantly killing you.

Spear/shield blocks melee attacks, Evasion helps you avoid ranged and AOE, and Juggernaut gives you enough health to tank anything that actually hits you.

In the mid-end game most of your attacks (spear throw, shield bash, sweep, impale) will have cooldowns so LTI is great. You can taki psi later in game if you struggle with first section.

Temporal Manipulation is extremely strong on basically every build. I tried this build because I had just done a full psi character and I didn't want psi on this one. If I was optimizing for Dominating I would recommend taking it. It's certainly not necessary on normal though.

Edit: I also don't think Shield Bash is worth taking. One turn of Daze against a single target just isn't that strong, especially when you'll have Throwing and enough Chemistry to craft flashbangs.

Another Edit: For reference, this is what I had at the end of the game.
https://underrail.info/build/?HhAFBgcDAwYAwqAAwqAAwqAAc3MAAHh4XwB4AAAAAAAAcyQ5VcKvEsKVwqzClMKTRcKCAMKrD3zCtnnipYoF4rOOAuKzogPis6QD4reJAt-_

Okay so I have a few more questions for you. If I do change my mind and want Temporal Manipulation in my build How would it look at the start and end?

The build you posted of your psi-less build looks nice but I am not sure where to focus my skill points early game or how to spread them at creation (do I just go with that other starter setup you posted earlier?)

Also what do you recommend I do to farm out money to get the things I need? Because I always get stumped on where to get enough money for these materials/blueprints or where to grind EXP for the points to craft these things. ( I do not plan to play oddity as I did not enjoy that method of leveling up)

[saryn228]

Until you leave depot A you see 0 new psi abilities besides feats. and the acid and rooting was the biggest issue. didn't matter how many barriers I threw up. I was not stopping being rooted and eventually slowly melted to death. also half of the time psi abilities were not doing enough damage to reasonably kill the mutants. I was using a build I got from this forum too so unless there was some magical thing that could change my mind. I don't like psi. Even the doppelganger ability was bad.

All the psi abilities that are available pre-Depot A are more than enough to get you through it. This all just sounds like you entered Depot A too early and without adequate gear. What level were you when you attempted it? I'd be curious to see what build from these forums you were using as well... got a link to it?

This was all back in September and I re-installed the game since then and lost all my saves. I don't remember what thread I was looking at when I got the build so I cant show you what I was running at the time I made it to core city or what build I was using. all I can tell you is it was heavy into metathermics and psychokinesis with a little bit sprinkled into thought and temp with the rest of my points being spread into crafting, hacking and lockpicking. I made it to core city but I felt like the build was incredibly weak especially when something could easily one hit me with a single melee or gun hit. Humans were not too much of a problem unless they got in range to just one shot me with a gun.

[saryn228]

Until you leave depot A you see 0 new psi abilities besides feats. and the acid and rooting was the biggest issue. didn't matter how many barriers I threw up. I was not stopping being rooted and eventually slowly melted to death. also half of the time psi abilities were not doing enough damage to reasonably kill the mutants. I was using a build I got from this forum too so unless there was some magical thing that could change my mind. I don't like psi. Even the doppelganger ability was bad.

All the psi abilities that are available pre-Depot A are more than enough to get you through it. This all just sounds like you entered Depot A too early and without adequate gear. What level were you when you attempted it? I'd be curious to see what build from these forums you were using as well... got a link to it?

actually it was a build from Theaverage dude. I was using his SI Psychosis thing. I wasnt enjoying it.