Dev Log #67: Version 1.1.2.0 - Waterways and Psi Update

[Pruvan]

I really don't like this update, mostly new core psi mechanics.If the update comes out like this, then most likely I will quit playing.

Version 1.1.2.2 added a lot more flexibility for psi focused characters in the form of feats looks like. Keep in mind that this update is still in development, so if you have any concerns now is the time to address them. Adopting a defeatist attitude doesn't help anyone.

[destroyor]

The new psi system will now allow 8 slots.

Are pure psi and psi hybrid viable and effective under the new system, even on dominating?
Yes.

A special mention of Force Field for psi hybrid - under the new system FF will get you kill and is not worth using for 3 WIL psi hybrid and I permanently taken it out of my loadout as a result.

However with the max 8 slots limit, a lot of psi abilities will never get use now.

- Psi-cognitive Interruption, great for npc, almost useless for player. It was maybe useful for taken one psi enemy out before the change (X: doubt) but now the opportunity cost of having it taking up one valuable slot is way too great.

- Neurovisual Disruption: probably maybe useful for psi hybrid that want to snipe next turn, but even that is doubtful as you can just use 5 more AP to enter stealth mode and save up a valuable slot.

- Force Emission: not that great before the change but now absolutely garbage under new system.

- Disruptive Field: super useful before against ranged with its long range and low cost, now again the opportunity cost of having this take up a slot is too great, will never get use.

- Cryo-Shield: opportunity cost, never get use, you get the idea.

- Psycho-temporal Dilation: situationally useful before change, now oc, never get use. I'm a broken record

- Entropic Recurrence: hard to use before, now absolutely garbage under new system, oc, never get use. You know the drill.

- Temporary Rewind: same as above.

- Precognition: I occasionally turn this on before the change hope RNG goddess will smile upon me. Now? Please, oc, never get use, blah blah.

This is at least 9 psi abilities out of 32 available that will never get use due to opportunity cost at a staggering rate of 28.125%. Styg you said you want to expand the psi system, but what's the point of adding new spell if it'll either:
1) never get use because slots are valuable and it's simply not good enough to make the loadout, or
2) It's very good and a must have to be included squeezing another spell out of loadout making the old spell effectively window dressing

See for me, when I play full psi the fun comes from using specific spells under specific condition or using spells unconventionally to giving me an edge: Pre-casting Pseudo-spatial Projection and Cryo-Shield before a tough fight, Disruptive field against a sniper/xbow taking this one enemy out of the fight for several turns, cryostasis/cryo-shield against that native boss using exothermic aura, ThermoD to take out enemies' cryo-shield, Stasis to take out an enemies' pseudo-spatial projection, force field blocking npc into a far corner so he can't yell for friends, FF moving NPC to pickpocket him, cryo-shield yourself when you are on fire, etc.

The above situations do not happen all the time and occurred every once in a while. They added variety and made things fun. With the new system there's simply no place for these kinds of shenanigans now. This is why pure psi are less fun and boring now - you are doing the same thing over and over in order to be viable and effective. It does not make sense to innervated these spells to prepare for an edge case that might never come.

I prepose all psi user getting a free ability once you take the psi pill that will allow the casting of a single non-innervated spell at various cost and/or penalties with the ability itself having a cooldown of 50 ~ 200 turns to cover these edge cases.

On the topic of fun, I do have more comment on this as it had been bugging me for a while now:

There's a very thin line between having challenging mechanics and annoying, extra tedious "work".
The increased weight of repair kits means you need to return to base for repair far more often, breaking game flow making it annoying. Seriously have you try playing a pure AR tin can and watch your gun's durability take a sky dive after every fight? Or play a 3 STR SMG char trying to use trap? Locus? I know they were reduced after much outcry. A certain powerplant not letting you power everything in one go? I know you are trying to drain player resources by making them backtrack to confer a sense of hopelessness and dread - but all these changes and the design philosophy behind them, imho, had crossed this line and ventured firmly into annoying, tedious territory making the game feels like work sometimes and do not, again imho, increase the fun and challenge of the game. This trend is indeed worrying especially with Infusion currently under development and I suspect Styg is using Underrail as a test bed for future system.

[HulkOSaurus]

This is at least 9 psi abilities out of 32 available that will never get use due to opportunity cost

It's actually the opposite when you think about it.

It was before that those skills wouldn't see as much use whereas now the norm becomes character with combat abilities and one psi school. Duo, Trio or All-Psi school characters are going to be the odd-balls - viable still - but odd-balls nonetheless. Possibly Tri-Psi school are going to be the rarest of the bunch.

But regardless, it's precisely because of the system now favouring single school Psi that those skills are going to see more use. 

[Bruno]

This is at least 9 psi abilities out of 32 available that will never get use due to opportunity cost

It's actually the opposite when you think about it.

It was before that those skills wouldn't see as much use whereas now the norm becomes character with combat abilities and one psi school. Duo, Trio or All-Psi school characters are going to be the odd-balls - viable still - but odd-balls nonetheless. Possibly Tri-Psi school are going to be the rarest of the bunch.

But regardless, it's precisely because of the system now favouring single school Psi that those skills are going to see more use.

This is my thinking as well.

To this I would like to add my opinion on changes to psi, it is good.
I wished for a long time that more specialization is rewarded to encourage focus on one school, and now this is true to a degree.

it is understandable that the penalty to using multiple schools and the limit on psi powers are annoying for those used to the old system. I believe that it is a matter of adapting, there will be many useful psi builds still, and the oddest spells can find use in hybrid builds, or be tweaked a bit.


For me personally, the same philosophy applies for limits applied in the form of repair kit weight, trap weight etcetera. Play with a character who is dependent on resources like these, there is usually a solution, like the Pack Rathound feat, even specialization. Or more strength, and leaving the cumbersome loot behind, only taking the lightest, most valuable stuff.
(I did however make a suggestionin the appropriate forum earlier that the Trap Expert feat would let you halve the carry weight of traps, as an alternative way of being a trap expert.)

I do realize that some players will disagree, and that is fine. I like being punished and finding ways out, and will take quality of life feats at the cost of offensive/defensive ones if I have to, it is a matter of personal taste. (I never play on dominating dificulty.)

[destroyor]

Let's take a look at the spells for pure psi:


Telekinetic Punch
Telekinetic Proxy
Implosion
These three are the bread and butter vs. single target

Thermodynamic Destabilization
Add in thermoD and you are cover on AOE

Psycho-temporal Contraction
Stasis
PTC for AP/MP, Stasis as reliable panic button.

That's already 6 of the 8 slots taken, if you are running psychosis build you 100% want:
Cryokinetic Orb

Now you have 1 slot remaining, please discuss how you could justify choosing those edge case spells over the following:
Cryostasis
Pyrokinesis
Force Field
Electrokinesis
Electrokinetic Imprint
Limited Temporal Increment (a must if you also take Grenadier)

Let's say you are running Trans psi build, and forever reason(s) you don't pick up Cryo orb, again please explain why you'll choose those edge case spells over the above objectively better spells.

Or if you have some alternative loadout for pure psi that would take edge case spell as core spells I would love to hear it.




Alright let's look at 3 WIL psi hybrid:
I'm running 6 or 7 INT for Premeditation and crafting related spells, force field is out due to it's low hp and unreliability. I have 5 slots, a typical load out would be:
Thermodynamic Destabilization + Limited Temporal Increment (w/ Grenadier I have triple explosions within 2 turns, the most effective combo hands down)
Psycho-temporal Contraction (for AP + MP)
Stasis (panic button)

So with the one slot remaining, what would you pick and what's your reasoning?
For me it's one of the following:
Cryostasis - great silent control
Electrokinesis - build specific such as pistol build would use this to execute, otherwise use as stun on demand
Electrokinetic Imprint - instant trap

Again the edge case spells are not even worth considering due to opportunity cost. If there's some factor I'm not considering where edge case spells should be consider as core spells please post them.

[Underground Wanderer]

Okay Styg if there was one mechanic that I could get you to completely remove from the recent Psi-nerf it would be the increased cost penalty for cross school usage of Psi-powers. That is absolute cancer and it makes it near impossible to function if you rely on Psi-powers to get you through the game if you ever get in a encounter more dangerous and/or complex then several mook tier enemies. If I where to be honest everything else is more or less fair such as forcing Psions to think about what powers they want to use in a specific encounter and also making them reliant on resources like any other class (Though I think some tweaks are needed for those aspects as well.). However that one mechanic is a big kick to the bollocks that just destroys your ability to play as someone who relies on using Psionic abilities from multiple schools on anything but the lowest difficulties and even then its hell, and I can't even imagine what it would be like if I made a Psychosis build.

[spleen.ii]

Full psi builds are my favorites. They were indeed more powerful than other builds and I can understand the desire to tone them down. But there are too many nerfs at once. It would be understandable if the goal was to make full psi builds impossible and to force players to chose them as complementary utilities, but it seems you want the full psi build route to still be possible. In this case, you should reverse some of the nerfs. The major advantages over other builds were unlimited resources and versatility. The introduction of the limited psi pool per fight is like denying a player to use grenades, even if they are in his inventory. You have the necessary resources in your inventory but you can't use them. And the introduction of innervated abilities is like denying a player to use grenades, even if they are in his inventory because he didn't chose them before the fight. It could make sense balance wise with other builds (you have to carry the grenades, and if you don't take them with you, you can't use them, so with the same idea, if you don't innervate your ability, you can't use it). But with the introduction of psi reserves, a psi user already has to carry its ammo (the psi boosters AND inhalants).

Like some others, I think that, at least, the increased cost penalty for cross school usage of Psi-powers should not exist, as the limited number of innervated psi slots will already limit the versatility of psi users.
"Psi does not require any expendable resource". That was true outside of combat, but now, with 2 different ressources, I could imagine Deep caverns to be a real pain.
I also personally think that psi boosters don't really make sense anymore, lore wise. If psi is something that doesn't regen naturally and if you need psi inhalant to gain psi back, what do psi boosters do ? Psi inhalants already give you psi. I understand it gameplaywise, but not lorewise. With the former system, it made sense: Psi regenerated slowly, so you had to use outside sources to get it back quicker.

Here is my proposition:
 - We keep the "innervate abilities" and the limited psi reserves. This pool doesn't regen, so you still use one ressource (either psi inhalant or psi boost) to get psi back in the reserves. You can still use them during a fight to replenish your psi reserves. Maybe only one of them could be usable during fights to replenish psi reserves, but more rare and craftable later. Your usable psi pool regen slowly (maybe slower than now), but we get a new action that costs action points, "concentrate", which transfer psi from your psi reserves to your usable psi pool. Like a reload action for psi. The more intelligence (or will), the less it costs (AP), or the more psi you transfer. It could also bring nice possibilities for creatives feats linked to this action. But we should not need a consumable to do that.
And the increased cost penalty for cross school usage disappears.

It would bring psi builds in line with other builds without making them subpar.

[chimaera]

For me the issue with the new system - which I haven't tested, so this is just by looking at the changelog - is that it looks new player unfriendly. It's easy to discuss the usefulness of schools & abilties when you've played a ful psi at least once. But for a new player? Psi, while not a new sci-fi concept, is not very intuitive, at least compared to weapons.

I'd rather have changes to how abilities work (e.g. being able to destroy force fields is a great idea, because enemies were unable to do anything against it before), and changes in enemy ai and usage of skills (does anyone even use temporal for example?).

Half of the fun with my very first character was experimenting with all the psi schools and abilities. But it looks like the upcoming changes are aimed mostly at experienced players and don't take into account how a first playthrough usually goes.

[Riggs]

For me the issue with the new system - which I haven't tested, so this is just by looking at the changelog - is that it looks new player unfriendly. It's easy to discuss the usefulness of schools & abilties when you've played a ful psi at least once. But for a new player? Psi, while not a new sci-fi concept, is not very intuitive, at least compared to weapons.

I'd rather have changes to how abilities work (e.g. being able to destroy force fields is a great idea, because enemies were unable to do anything against it before), and changes in enemy ai and usage of skills (does anyone even use temporal for example?).

Half of the fun with my very first character was experimenting with all the psi schools and abilities. But it looks like the upcoming changes are aimed mostly at experienced players and don't take into account how a first playthrough usually goes.

Yes, perhaps the single biggest issue with the changes to psi is that it takes a game that is already quite unforgiving to new players by design and further reduces the accessibility of one of its major features to said new players. Simply put, newcomers are going to be far less likely to try out (and more importantly stick with) a full psi playthrough. It's just too convoluted and tedious now to be considered over something tried and true like a tin can SMG build for example.

[destroyor]

I'm going to make one hail mary patch feedback, and shut the fuck up after this. This is really a copy and paste from my post from here:
https://steamcommunity.com/app/250520/discussions/0/2797251375477334477/

https://underrail.com/forums/index.php?topic=5732.msg30350#msg30350

The first major theme of this update is the change to psi mechanics. The full changes are listed below. They are not primarily meant to kick the full psi builds down a notch (though they will do that), but to address the following issues with psi that I find the most problematic and detrimental to the game as a whole, not just in terms of difficulty:

    Psi gives you too many utilities. Due to how the psi functions now (prior to this update) it's almost impossible to add new stuff to psi without extending the already bloated spectrum of combat utilities of any given psi generalist (which most psi builds are) even further, since, unlike with combat utilities, there are no limits to what a psi invoker can access during combat.
    Psi is cheap to spec into. Even though every psi school is a separate skill, they are all based on a single base ability, which is the only one required to be maxed out in order for your character to be powerful. If you invest heavily enough into it, the psi abilities themselves will make up for many deficiencies in other areas. No other robust build works like this, they usually require at least moderately strong investment into a secondary base ability.
    Psi does not require any expendable resource. Pretty much every other build does so I introduced a resource for psi as well. Now it has a dual (or hybrid if you will) resource management aspect. Also I used this opportunity to put a sort of a limit to how much psionic output you can dish out in a single fight, so we'll see how this works out.
    This is the least important point, but it's still worth addressing. Some abilities are a bit too cheesey and easy to exploit so I changed them up a bit. This does not make them perfectly balanced or un-cheeseable and I know there is other stuff out there that's cheese as well. These are just the ones that bothered me the most and were long overdue to change.

If you refer to the above quote, the purpose of innervation are:
1) Psi have access to too many utilities.
2) It's impossible to add new stuff to psi
3) Psi is way too cheap to spec into: You only need high WIL and 6 INT for Premeditation
4) Psi does not require any expendable resource
5) Some psi abilities (again, hereafter refer to as spells) are way too cheesey/powerful

If you re-read my post #18 on this thread you'll see that I already said non-core spells are now window dressings. Whether the spells I listed are worthless or not are always up to debate. @Tamiore, in fact, you agree w/ me some spells are just not good enough to justify a slot. By default, the innervation slot system will screen out some spells as non-core spells, making Purpose #2 pointless. I already said as such:

This is at least 9 psi abilities out of 32 available that will never get use due to opportunity cost at a staggering rate of 28.125%. Styg you said you want to expand the psi system, but what's the point of adding new spell if it'll either:
1) never get use because slots are valuable and it's simply not good enough to make the loadout, or
2) It's very good and a must have to be included squeezing another spell out of loadout making the old spell effectively window dressing

Again, this point was never addressed nor acknowledged by Styg and rarely seen in any discussion unless I bring it up.

Now onto purpose #1, 3, 4, 5: this is exactly why under the old system psi is newbie friendly: easy to build, learn and use, with a vast array of spells to choose from. Another newbie friendly build is tin can AR build and I frequently hear complaints that it is boring: burst, burst and more burst. Psi was never boring; it allows shenanigans which makes it fun. This is important and not just a moot point as it made Underrail more accessible to new players. The whole point of making a game for a dev is to make $. The whole point of playing a game for player is to have fun. When a game is hard, boring, frustrating with a high barrier of entry, than it is unlikely to sell a lot of units = less $.
With the new slots system, you are going to be doing the same core spells over and over again, which is more boring = less fun => I do not know why some of you do not seem to understand that.

For the record, I am not a fan of innervation. However since the system is here to stay I want non innervated spells to play a role and allow to be use every once in awhile (under restrictions and within limits), not an extra slot.

Styg seems to see purpose #1, 3, 4 as a bad thing. I see them as a good thing but it's his game so ...

I agree w/ purpose #5 and some spells should be adjust accordingly.

    Originally posted by destroyor:
    - Cryo-Shield

Never used it before. Because opportunity costs was already too high in the form of psi/AP cost.

You missed out. You can pre-cast cryo-shield + PSP before you manually start a hard fight so the AP costs are irreverent, meaning two extra layers of "free" defense. Under the new system, sure you can still pre cast them and than reset your slots but even if you are willing to spend the two psi inhalants this "solution" is bad because:

There's a very thin line between having challenging mechanics and annoying, extra tedious "work". .. breaking game flow making it annoying. .. but all these changes and the design philosophy behind them, imho, had crossed this line and ventured firmly into annoying, tedious territory making the game feels like work sometimes and do not, again imho, increase the fun and challenge of the game. This trend is indeed worrying especially with Infusion currently under development and I suspect Styg is using Underrail as a test bed for future system.

So now to have the same effect you need to spend oh my god 2 extra inhalants /s and click click click click click - fucking tedious. At the very bare minimum there should be a streamline option for this - use a non-innervated spell, auto consume 2 psi inhalant without the multiple clicks + annoying loadout adjustments.


Variety to gameplay is like spices to food: They are not necessary but sure made the food a hell lot more enjoyable.

If you are serious about this discussion and genuinely interested on patch feedback, you should review all existing patch feedback threads. It could be here, steam forum, reddit, and what have you. You will find that I am not alone in believing psi was fun to play, a strong selling point for Underrail and this latest patch reduce this fun factor. You can laugh and dismiss this as a non issue all you want; Maybe Styg never intended psi to be this way, but we are not alone on this opinion, nor are we the minority. There are dozens of us! DOZENS!

[Ilbarth]

I think that new system is great. Before there was no reason to not add one-few psi schools to every build, now you must specialize. Just like any other type of character. Can't be good at everything.

[HulkOSaurus]

...

You and Tamior are both meta slaves... just use a little imagination when playing this game.

[Sykar]

I think that new system is great. Before there was no reason to not add one-few psi schools to every build, now you must specialize. Just like any other type of character. Can't be good at everything.

No it is not great, at least no in execution. Full PSI is basically dead and unfun to play. You did not have to specialize. There were plenty of 1 or two school builds. Temporal was always worth a consideration as a support school to take. Many used just 45 points for Psychokinesis to get Force Field and Imprint. Many throwing builds would go Meta for Thermo. Destabil.
So yes there were very good reason to get a single school for certain hybrid builds.

[Quidam Craft]

So yes there were very good reason to get a single school for certain hybrid builds.

They were ? It's still the case.
I think hybrid builds has been left mostly untouched by the update.

I'm mostly playing hybrid builds, and I replayed some of my classic personnal favorite. Not much has changed, beside I have to take new asthma psi medecine.

Even when mixing school, the increased in psi cost does not even bother that much since anyway you were using something else to do damage.

[CrabClaw]

It would require more tuning of course, but with the psi slots I wonder if it could be better balanced (so as to not completely push out niche utility spells) if each psi ability had an innervation point cost associated with it. That way your PT Contraction would cost '6 points' to innervate (or however you want to flavor it) while your neural overload only cost 1 or 2. The point cap still scales off of some combo of will and intelligence, but at least now the opportunity cost of innervating different abilities isn't locked in at a 1:1 ratio. You can either load up on several many different utility spells or a core of high-impact ones.

Basically aping the same system as the memory utilization / skill chips similar to what's used in Nier Automata or other games. Maybe with some scaling bonus attached if you're not using up your full allocation.

I do feel that the current implementation as laid out does push out the more niche spells.