Just thoughts of a new Psi system

[Tayon]

Just a set of reflections on the new Psi system.
At the moment, Intelligence has suddenly become one of two parameters required by a Psionic. Let's forget about Forcefull Innervation, in lore it sounds like another Psychosis, when a character gets strength by violating his own nervous system, which does not contribute to a long and healthy life ... Well, I like roleplaying characters who want to live a long and healthy life... In Underrail, this sounds like a serious ambition
Hmm ... Coming back to the topic, if Intelligence is now one of the fundamental stats, then where is it used? In psi regeneration, which, with the advent of inhalers, has become somewhat less useful? In Psi Slots? Perhaps only in Psi Slots.
At the moment I have the impression that Intellect is literally forcibly squeezed into the Psi system, and this squeezing is not well thought out in terms of balance.
What does a sniper need to maximize damage? Just Perception. One stat.
Melee fighter? Strength or agility. Again, one stat.
Two stats are really only needed for pistol shooters at the moment.

I am not saying that the idea of ​​giving a second Psi-stat is initially wrong, no. I just think that we need more opportunities to use Intelligence to enhance Psi. Perhaps - an increase in the damage of some discipline through a feat, for example, Thought Control. Possibly a percentage increase in psi reserve, a kind of psi stamina. Maybe something else, I'm just trying to give ideas.

[TheAverageGortsby]

Two stats are really only needed for pistol shooters at the moment.

It's a little bit trickier a balancing act than that, though, because, for example, Strength doesn't help you do anything but be strong, and Perception doesn't help you do anything but aim and find secrets in the world (and as the game is now, you can still find all the secrets with 3 Perception so even there it only serves a QoL function) but Will and Intelligence are the most important skill-boosting stats in the game.  Intelligence makes you better at hacking, shopping, and all crafting skills; Will makes you better at persuasion and intimidation which both have real benefits in the game world.

I just don't think it's a fair apples-to-apples to compare Strength or Perception or Agility or even Dexterity to Constitution, Will, and Intelligence, which are fundamentally more helpful to the character.

[Tayon]

ntelligence makes you better at hacking, shopping, and all crafting skills

And nothing other than hacking really matters unless you're playing the game through mass crafting.

I just don't think it's a fair apples-to-apples to compare Strength or Perception or Agility or even Dexterity to Constitution, Will, and Intelligence, which are fundamentally more helpful to the character.

Agility means stealth, which provides in-game benefits as much as persuasion and intimidation. Dexterity generally means all thieves' skills: picking locks, pickpocketing and, finally, traps, which, unlike the previous two, are not optional at all. One and only truly irreplaceable skill.
High Perception means guns. And guns are the most versatile offensive skill in the game, including blasters, rifles and, in general, almost any means of destruction. It also allows you to quickly notice any lovers of stabbing a knife in the back. Or a tail. If you've met a crawler, you know what I mean.
A High (6+) Constitution is a requirement for Fast Metabolism feat. For any psionicist, the ability to increase the effect of the Psi-Booster to 100 (120 with specialization) psi is a gift from heaven. Not that it is necessary (I always needed stats elsewhere, so I never took it), but definitely useful. There is also Hemopsychosis - just a godsend for any Psychosis-type Psion, especially relevant after the patch. And then there are Survival Instincts, which increase an already decent psychotic critical strike chance by another 30%. And these are just feats that are directly useful for a psionicist, I do not even mention the possibilities that the Constitution opens up for simple survival.
Strength, again, can be directly applied to enhance Psychokinetic abilities. And also our carrying capacity depends on it.

To summarize - there are somewhere zero basic stats that the Styg has made useless. Almost every stat can be useful for this or that psi-build. But since the Intelligence has become not only "useful" but obligatory, I believe that its usefulness should be increased.

P.S. I will expand my position a little to make it clearer. Previously, 6 intelligence was enough for psi-wizards (requirement for Premeditation Feat). This is a good, convenient number, which allowed us to both reach 10 Will and leave enough to increase other stats to the optimal level. Usually it was even increased to 7, since 9 is the highest Intelligence check in the dialogue. One 10, three 3 and three 7 are the usual scheme of scattering stats for the minimaxer. +8 stats for leveling up and feats went exclusively to Will.
Now I need to remove five points from Will and send them to Intellect. Just like that, without any tangible benefit to the build. I would understand if most builds had to raise two stats beyond 10, but no. Even a seasoned crafter can live with a 7 in intelligence. Psion, if he wants to act to the fullest, cannot. There is not even some kind of contradiction where to invest points, in Will or Intellect - there is no such increase in power that would justify the reduction of the arsenal to several basic abilities.
Seriously, Styg seems to be collecting tribute from the Psionics with Ability Points.

[TheAverageGortsby]

I'm about to update my psi build guide, so I'll be brief here, but I'd like to respond to a few of your points:

Agility is not necessary for successful stealth.  If you have a crafted stealth set of gear, you can stealth the entire game on DOMINATING with 3 Agi and 0 Stealth.  You can stealth the entire game easily with 3 Agi and 60 Stealth.
Dexterity is not necessary for successful traps.  The only trap that's really irreplaceable is the simple bear trap which is usable at 0 skill.
Carrying capacity is not important for psi.  There is no gear weight for psi; a headband weighing 1 and armor weighing 12ish with psi beetle carapace.  No ammo, no weapon, no need to wear tabis to optimize attacks.  Wear infused pig leather boots for +30 carry and you have 140+ free carry weight at 3 strength without Pack Rathound.
6 Int is still plenty for full psi, unfortunately.  I'll show that when I update my build guide.  But 10 Int was always the optimal value for psi pre-patch because psi regen mattered in a way it no longer does.
Crafting gear has always been the fundamentally correct way to play UnderRail, so Intellect has always been an important stat to free up skill points and provide even greater benefits to crafted gear.  No looted psi headband will ever match what a crafted one can.  No looted weapon will ever match what a crafted one can.  No looted armor will ever match what crafted armor can.  No looted shield will ever match what a crafted one can.  And you can't loot Tasers or Cloaking Devices, both of which are irreplaceable tools.

[Tayon]

Crafting gear has always been the fundamentally correct way to play UnderRail

My last playthrough was a stealthy psi luddite, so I highly doubt it.

I haven't crafted any Psi Bandages, I just haven't worn them. These weird things are irradiating my brain, I'd rather wear a tin foil hat!
I hadn't crafted a single piece of clothing, the protectorate diving suit was enough to protect me from the harmful environment. As for the attacks of the enemies, I tried not to fall under them (stealth + control), and where this was not enough, the shield helped me out.
I haven't crafted a single weapon. Why does the psi wizard need them?
I didn't even craft the shield, I used the one taken from Balor. This was already really regrettable, but I did it.

One of the best things about Underrail is that there is no "fundamentally correct" path. Why are you trying to prove that it is not?

P.S. 60 stealth is enough ... Well, if you do not use it actively, then maybe. I was caught even with 160. Well, I tried to peacefully sneak through the Serpentborn camp, so that's natural.
I already realized that you love crafting just as much as I love stealth and control abilities. This is normal. But don't force your playstyle on people.

[TheAverageGortsby]

My last playthrough was a stealthy psi luddite, so I highly doubt it.

P.S. 60 stealth is enough ... Well, if you do not use it actively, then maybe. I was caught even with 160. Well, I tried to peacefully sneak through the Serpentborn camp, so that's natural.
I already realized that you love crafting just as much as I love stealth and control abilities. This is normal. But don't force your playstyle on people.

What that means is you haven't tried it and don't know; I have tried it, and know.  The way you played is good enough, and you're good enough that it worked well.  Excellent.  But you could do even better with crafted gear, no matter your build (that's why I mentioned weapons; because no matter your build, crafting makes it better).

60 skill points in stealth, plus 50 from Infused Cave Hopper Overcoat, plus 30 from Ninja Tabis, plus 25 from Balaclava, plus 80 from Cloaking Device, gives you 245 effective before Agility modification: 3 base, +1 from the overcoat, and +1 or +2 from food gives you an additional 8.5-17% effective skill bonus.  That can get you safely through Emporion, Serpentborn camp, and maybe even Death Stalker zones if you're very precise.

I'm not forcing my play style on anyone; I'm pointing out the objective fact that in UnderRail crafted gear is superior to looted or purchased gear, and since gear modifies player character power, good crafting makes you more powerful.  This isn't an especially contentious detail; it's been understood for years.  Choosing not to use crafting is choosing to make the game more difficult; no problems there.  But from a fundamental viewpoint of "how can I make my character the best it can be" there's no comparison -- crafting is the correct way to go for the gear you're going to rely on most.

[Tayon]

I'm not forcing my play style on anyone; I'm pointing out the objective fact that in UnderRail crafted gear is superior to looted or purchased gear, and since gear modifies player character power, good crafting makes you more powerful.  This isn't an especially contentious detail; it's been understood for years.

Bro, this is a single player game. The way to go through it has never been a question of efficiency - it is a matter of convenience, roleplay, pleasure from the game, and so on. It's not like I'm arguing with you which is more effective or less effective.
I argue with you that the psi-build does not need Intelligence in such quantities (I would have made it a dumb-stat in some builds, if it were not for the burning reluctance to play imbecile). If we are trying to become a psi-wizard, we may not have enough points at all for all crafting skills, in the best case - two (this is if we give up everything except Psi at all). You do not need Intellect lifted to infinity if you are not all-crafter.
Seven is more than enough, considering that the maximum quality in the game is about 160, and your house adds 15% to the craft. 112 points to reach a craft skill of 160. Raising your Intelligence to 12 will lower the bar to 84, but 5 stat points are worth much more than 56 skill points.

P.S. And if you think that I did not play as a crafter, you are wrong. But minimaxing so hardly, replenishing the statistics of a physically disabled person (what else to call a person with 3 on all physical stats?) with things never crossed my mind. Being a person who is not capable of anything without self-crafted crutches ... This is not the way I like to play games.

[Bruno]

Bre,
You can loot a cloaking device in Slavomir/Bogdans hideout. I also get a cloaking device as reward for this mission (JKK #1).

[TheAverageGortsby]

Bre,
You can loot a cloaking device in Slavomir/Bogdans hideout. I also get a cloaking device as reward for this mission (JKK #1).

Which are only optionally available, Bruno.  You can't get the JKK rewards if you don't take the JKK quest, and you can't get into Bogdan's hideout if you sided with Protectorate.  (edit: lel. I forgot who Bogdan was.  You can get to his hideout regardless, and get the cloak regardless.  It is mediocre at best, but anyone can get it) Whereas you can with any choices get crafting skill and components, thus making what I said broadly true.

You can also get a cloaking device from duping items.  Should I then by your logic have included that?

[Tayon]

Dude, I was just asking for more psi uses for intelligence, since it was made the basic psi stat. Why did this turn into a discussion of the advantages of crafting and a guide to where to find electronics that are usually only crafted?

[TheAverageGortsby]

Dude, I was just asking for more psi uses for intelligence, since it was made the basic psi stat. Why did this turn into a discussion of the advantages of crafting and a guide to where to find electronics that are usually only crafted?

Because your OP was premised on Intelligence not being useful enough, now.  To correctly valuate Intelligence, you need to also look at the role it plays in crafting, which is enormously powerful.  You compared it to Perception and Strength and Agility, and indirectly to Dexterity.  I pointed out that Intelligence applies to the most powerful system in UnderRail, crafting, and said I didn't feel it was an apples-to-apples comparison since those stats only affect one or two (or three) skills while Intelligence affects seven, all of which are useful even outside psi.

I'm not really sure why Bruno chimed in without seeing the generalizations you and I were both applying in our discussion.  But to you, my point has been unchanged: Intelligence is higher priority comparatively for psi but it also provides psi with huge benefits.  I don't think you can fairly compare what it offers to other stats.  I also don't think in the current experimental build there's any reason to take Int over 9 for full psi builds, and certainly no reason to go past 12.  There's still a lot of room for Will, and psi builds optimizing for psi benefit used 10 Int pre-patch, anyway.

[Tayon]

There's still a lot of room for Will, and psi builds optimizing for psi benefit used 10 Int pre-patch, anyway.

I don't see any advantage in bringing intelligence to ten in pre-patch builds, but that doesn't matter.
What's important is that before the patch, we had a choice whether to go to craft or not. Yes, according to the wiki, craft can give us +78 to all psi-skills, but this is achieved by huge investments in craft, as well as the inability to wear a balaclava or my favorite goggles without losing part of the bonus.
Everyone decided for himself whether it was worth it or not. Now crafting is almost imposed on us. This is fundamentally wrong. As a player, I don't hate crafting (I even love it), but I hate being deprived of my choice.
What I really don't like is that Psionic post-patch builds feel crippled in the absence of crafting. Intelligence should provide some kind of scalable psionic bonus, like the bonus it gives energy weapons through High-Technicalities feat. Otherwise, any pure psionic build will feel like it hasn't unlocked its potential, because playing through psi and playing through intellect are two different types of play. It's like imposing a "multiclass" on everyone. And the most offensive thing is that it only happens with psi. There is no other direction of character development that could not be played through one stat if you wanted to.

P.S. And yes, I fully understand that compared to the problems you listed in the adjacent thread , the "Intelligence problem" is nothing. There are problems that make Psi impossible to play, here, at best, a small balance problem. At worst - just another desire of the player to make his favorite role stronger, with which the "Suggestions" are filled. But beta exists for feedback, and I give my feedback. That's all.