Author Topic: Megathread: Quake and Mind Cracker problem.  (Read 2491 times)

Hammer Wizard

  • Oculite
  • Scavenger
  • **
  • Posts: 142
  • Karma: +34/-10
    • View Profile
Megathread: Quake and Mind Cracker problem.
« on: March 24, 2021, 04:03:40 pm »
There was an issue I have with the two hammer uniques, Quake and Mind Cracker, in Dominating.

First, Quake, the way I see it, it's basically a nice mid game sledgehammer unique that often dazes targets and more importantly, doesnt need repairs. The best time to get Quake is right after completing Depot A. It's a simple concept, but also an effective one; simple things are good. The issue is that in Dominating is wielded by Gubbins, a decently strong sledgehammer boss, behind his massive threatening gang:

1) If you really want to get Quake in Dominating, you either need to level up to be able take on Gubbins and his gang, in which by that point Quake gets outperformed by +100 quality regular sledgehammers, defeating the purpose of the whole endeavour in the first place.

2) The other way is using extremely grindy methods to get it, I mean things like poison caltrops, bear traps, gas grenades, incendiary grenades, flashbangs, throwing nets, etc. But, once again, if you have to dedicate that much effort items, money, time and effort on it, it's start to feel 'not worth it', I could craft myself some 'good enough' mid gamer hammer and carry on with my life, saving myself the frustration and time spending that is grind to get Quake. Metagaming is not always fun, and not always worth it. This would be one of these cases.

In my opinion, there are different ways to solve the issue:

>Buff Quake, so it still is worth it to smash throught Gubbin's in the late game
While it sounds appealing at first, there's already nice sledgehammer uniques in the late game, hell even regular crafted slegdehammers can sometimes be outright better than some uniques, so I dont think it would be a good idea, Quake should be just a 'transition' sledgehammer you use from mid game to late game just to get by. Buffing Quake would 'saturate' the sledgehammer options in the late game, if that makes sense. It's stats are fine as they are.

>Nerf Gubbins gang
No. Nerfing enemies goes against the Dominating 'Telos', you play Dom to fight a lot of tought enemies. Nerfing Gubbin's gang would make it both boring and lame.

>Way to 'sneak in'
I know what you're thinking, some folks will say 'Just stealth in lmao', first, Gubbin's base is actually relatively small and it's tightly crowded by his gang, not mentioning there's even a stealth sniper on the watch in his base, sneaking in, while not impossible, it's very fucking hard as it is.
Second, most of sledgehammer builds are tin cans, which have 0 stealth skills for very obvious reasons. Sure, I'm aware there are leather wearing stealth using sledgehammer builds out there, I know this because I encouraged the archetype myself in my guides, but keep in mind leather wearing sledgehammer builds are the 'exception to the rule', since a huge majority of hammerer builds are still tin cans, appealing to a very small minority of 'sub category' of builds is idiotic, if not outright outrageous.

So, the question would be how a tin can can get Quake? Vents and base layout. Even the most 'undexterous' and drunk of hammerers still appreciate a good ol' vent to crawl into, and maybe with the help of doors and hallways there could be a way to 'assasinate' Gubbins and his companions in a few turns before his gang arrives at the scene to help.
I know, a massive drunken metal man clumsily and noisely 'sneaking' into a metal vent in an enemy base with nobody noticing. As humorous as the concept is, this happens pretty often.

And the problem with Mind Cracker, two problems actually.

First, location, it's inside the Institute of Tchort utility section. The moment you get spotted, the Tchortists will turn hostile and attack you. Tchortist troops are very powerful, both psions and regular soldiers, if you leave the Institute while aggroed the Tchortists, you cannot go back, basically locking yourself out of the end game. Unless you're okay with fighting your way out to DC, there's absolutely no reason to fight the Tchortists.
At the same time, you could stealth, but same problem as before, stealth hammerer builds are but a small minority of sledgehammer builds, and tin cans cannot go throught without getting spotted, something that you want to avoid at all costs. Sure, you can use TNT and sound shenanigans, but after that tedium, I wouldn't say it's worth it to go throught such hassle to get that sledgehammer unique.
I even myself dont have much experiencie using it due how hard it is to obtain already, and largely ignore it in my hammer runs.

Second, it's stats. A psi hammer that 'mana burns' psions and that has a chance to apply psi interrumption. This is very useful indeed, but it also reduces Resolve. Resolve is the only thing that will save you from getting your brain turn to mush, something hammer builds suffer the most, due the lack of mobility. Considering most of sledgehammer builds tend to be 'tanks', they must survive getting hit first, then return the favour with the same coin, this item actively hurts your tanking capabilities against psions, the cons of this vastly outweights it's pros, making it very unappealing, and actually counterproductive.
As of it right now, I'd only use Mind Cracker against Coil Spiders and Psi Crabs, and not against Beetles and human Psions, given how common TC abilities are. That's a very narrow usage of this hammer, and it doesnt justify the trouble of getting it in the very first place.

My recommendations:
Move Mind Cracker in an area that you can access more early, but you have to do some serious fighting to get it, for example, Lunatic Mall. The fact this hammer is behind Institute's gates it automatically places it very late in the base game, in which at that point you dont have much else to use Mind Cracker on. Power Fist in Hecate research lab is a good example of this. Surrounded by strong enemies but you can still power throught relatively early if you're really determined to do so.

Second, remove the Resolve debuff, and add something that hinders the wielders psi casting abilities.
Mind Cracker is anti-psi hammer, it should be for both the hammerer and the hammered, something like reduced psi regen (like Mushroom Brew does), and/or reduced psionic skills.
Psiless hammerers already struggle a lot against psions, this little help they would get will be most welcome, and psi hammerers are already strong enough they will not need this hammer unique, regardless of penalty or not.

Unrelated note:
Give Balor's Hammer the ability to destroy rocks/crumbling walls, bretty pls.
10 STR requirement to wield would be reasonable too.
*Snort*

harperfan7

  • Oculite
  • Godman
  • **
  • Posts: 1381
  • Karma: +210/-746
    • View Profile
Re: Megathread: Quake and Mind Cracker problem.
« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2021, 08:46:22 pm »
You make good points about their locations.  Balors is the best hammer in the game, better than crafted ones, as long as you have high enough strength, and it's available relatively early/easily.  Doesn't matter so much when you can't effectively use it early, but still.  Mind Cracker is effectively DC/expansion only.  You'd basically have to metagame to get Quake early.  Just throwing this out there; I think the lost vault section behind the str check would be a good place for a unique hammer.

My own recommendation for quake and mind cracker is to give them tichrome AP costs.  For cracker, I'd raise it to 35 psi points/35% chance and get rid of the resolve penalty.  I 2nd the "inhibiting the wielder's psi abilities" idea.  Both hammers have CC/debuff abilities with a % chance to happen, so decreasing their attack cost really makes them more attractive.  Quake has better crit damage than a tungsten hammer, but no emitter; lowering its costs would make it an effective mech-only hammer. 

If you're going to leave quake with Gubbins, with it being a non-lategame hammer, I'd at least let their be rumors of him/it so players would go up there early.  Maybe put a bounty on his head?
*eurobeat intensifies*

Hammer Wizard

  • Oculite
  • Scavenger
  • **
  • Posts: 142
  • Karma: +34/-10
    • View Profile
Re: Megathread: Quake and Mind Cracker problem.
« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2021, 05:09:45 pm »
Been pondering about this a little. After giving it some thought, I'm starting to disagree with my suggestion of putting Mind Cracker anybody near any Lunatic base, and instead concur with Harperfan's idea of putting it in some other dungeon, like the Lost Vault one.
I did made the comparison with the Hecate research lab, but turns out this was a bad comparison.
Hecate feels like a 'good' hard dungeon because every section with enemies is completely isolated of eachother:

>Deathstalkers are in a relatively small room in which you know, the moment you open the door, you will get stinged, you can safely fall back to kite the crawlers
>Plasma Bots are, once again, isolated from the rest of the lab and allows you to prepare accordingly
>Finally, the massive next of Greater Coil Spiders are scattered all throught the floor, with a lot of traps but also a lot of LoS break to use, giving the chance to quickly assasinate them 1 by 1

Contrary to the Lunatic bases, in which most likely you will easily aggro all the lunatics if you dont silently and quickly assasinate the groups of 1-3 Loonies, not even mentioning that, unlike in Hecate, you got entire groups of enemies that specialize in a wide array of weapons and psionics in which you cannot fully prepare for them all, unlike in Hecate.
For this reason, I pull back my original suggestion of placing the Mind Cracker in any Lunatic base.

And yes, I do agree giving them either increased % to proc or reduced AP, at least for Mind Cracker, since their gimmick is a % to proc debuff.
*Snort*

PhrygianDominant

  • Developer
  • Godman
  • *****
  • Posts: 1288
  • Karma: +175/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Megathread: Quake and Mind Cracker problem.
« Reply #3 on: March 26, 2021, 06:50:18 pm »
>Way to 'sneak in'
I know what you're thinking, some folks will say 'Just stealth in lmao', first, Gubbin's base is actually relatively small and it's tightly crowded by his gang, not mentioning there's even a stealth sniper on the watch in his base, sneaking in, while not impossible, it's very fucking hard as it is.
Second, most of sledgehammer builds are tin cans, which have 0 stealth skills for very obvious reasons. Sure, I'm aware there are leather wearing stealth using sledgehammer builds out there, I know this because I encouraged the archetype myself in my guides, but keep in mind leather wearing sledgehammer builds are the 'exception to the rule', since a huge majority of hammerer builds are still tin cans, appealing to a very small minority of 'sub category' of builds is idiotic, if not outright outrageous.

So, the question would be how a tin can can get Quake? Vents and base layout. Even the most 'undexterous' and drunk of hammerers still appreciate a good ol' vent to crawl into, and maybe with the help of doors and hallways there could be a way to 'assasinate' Gubbins and his companions in a few turns before his gang arrives at the scene to help.
I know, a massive drunken metal man clumsily and noisely 'sneaking' into a metal vent in an enemy base with nobody noticing. As humorous as the concept is, this happens pretty often.

Okay, so I made a few tweaks to the area's layout: I don't want to spoil too much, but basically I expanded the outside area a bit as to facilitate sneaking around, and just to give the players more options when it comes to approaching the encounter. There are also ways to reach Gubbins without going through the front door, so it's now possible to take him out in relative silence, or at least to nuke him first and then deal with the rest. The number of enemies and their composition remains largely unchanged, but some NPCs have been tweaked a bit in certain ways.

Hopefully these changes will not only make obtaining Quake more feasible for those who can actually use it, but should also make the encounter... well, more interesting overall. The changes will come with the next content update, and I'll be expecting feedback. :D

As for the Mind Cracker, in due time.

Hammer Wizard

  • Oculite
  • Scavenger
  • **
  • Posts: 142
  • Karma: +34/-10
    • View Profile
Re: Megathread: Quake and Mind Cracker problem.
« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2021, 10:46:15 pm »
Neat. I will be eagerly waiting

>and I'll be expecting feedback.
And you will get it.
*Snort*

Hammer Wizard

  • Oculite
  • Scavenger
  • **
  • Posts: 142
  • Karma: +34/-10
    • View Profile
Re: Megathread: Quake and Mind Cracker problem.
« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2021, 06:31:46 am »
Mind Cracker ignoring Pseudo Spatial Projection.
Y/N? PSP brutally hardcounters hammerers, this would be a godsgift.
*Snort*