Sheepherder's Shiv Melee Build - Advice/Sugesstions - Normal Difficulty

[Kristin94]

Okay, so, I tried to recreate Sheepherders Shiv Build - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9IQOO7gGZI&t=363s - with Lockpicking & Hacking & Crafting & Persuasion in mind.

So I made this:
Level 1: https://underrail.info/build/?AQMJBgkDBQUADwAPAAAPDwoAAAoKDwAPAAAAAAAAAGI5378

Level 15: https://underrail.info/build/?DwMLBgkDBQYAFgBVGQBVUjQAABMnLyg4AAAALS8AJGI5JjEGXCvChxJL378

Level 30: https://underrail.info/build/?HgMLBwkDBwYARwDCm0xMwqBtSAAAE3QvKV4AAABgTQBHYjkmMQZcK8KHEks8E8KIKsKFesKzURrDiOKnvgriqqgD378

Strategie is:
Craft a Shiv
Craft a Taser asap
Use Beartraps & Throwing Nets to set off Opportunist
Be at low health as fck for most of the times (+Crit)
Use Chemistry & Electronics to craft Frag Grenade MK III's & Plasma Grenades Mk III's
Use Persuasion for SGS Support & other Skills Checks
Merchantile for Traders
Nail Bombs for Bleed Damage


Here is where I need help with:

I've put 5 points per Level into Temporal Manipulation and I mainly did that so I can reach Psycho-temporal Acceleration & Future Orientation in time (level 10 & 20) without having to invest much into it. I never truly played PSI before, so do you guys think that investing in it as little as possible is a good idea or should I invest more heavily to make more us out of it?

I did Merchantile mainly because Sheepherder did it and I'm not sure If that's just a Dominination Difficulty thing, or if having better stocks available is actually crucial to the build.

I left Throwing at an effective skill of 35 for most of the build. I mainly did that 'cause leaving it at 30 in the early game has been enough so far. But do you guy's think that I should put more into it early on? (I continue to level Throwing at level 25 again - that's quite late)

Can I ditch Merchantile in favor of Throwing to ensure that my Nets & Stuff hit the target mid. to late game?

My Build has like zero trap skill and no Perception. Is having an Trapper's Belt & Tracking Googles equiped enough to actually spot shit?

And.. what should I wear in my Headslot? 'Cause Goggles don't increase Melee Damage.


Long post I know but I hope you Guys can give me some advice. Maybe tell me ouright if it sucks and doesn't work.
Thanks

[DerivativeZero]

Okay, so, I tried to recreate Sheepherders Shiv Build - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9IQOO7gGZI&t=363s - with Lockpicking & Hacking & Crafting & Persuasion in mind.

I've put 5 points per Level into Temporal Manipulation and I mainly did that so I can reach Psycho-temporal Acceleration & Future Orientation in time (level 10 & 20) without having to invest much into it. I never truly played PSI before, so do you guys think that investing in it as little as possible is a good idea or should I invest more heavily to make more us out of it?

I did Merchantile mainly because Sheepherder did it and I'm not sure If that's just a Dominination Difficulty thing, or if having better stocks available is actually crucial to the build.

I left Throwing at an effective skill of 35 for most of the build. I mainly did that 'cause leaving it at 30 in the early game has been enough so far. But do you guy's think that I should put more into it early on? (I continue to level Throwing at level 25 again - that's quite late)

Can I ditch Merchantile in favor of Throwing to ensure that my Nets & Stuff hit the target mid. to late game?

My Build has like zero trap skill and no Perception. Is having an Trapper's Belt & Tracking Googles equiped enough to actually spot shit?

And.. what should I wear in my Headslot? 'Cause Goggles don't increase Melee Damage.


Long post I know but I hope you Guys can give me some advice. Maybe tell me ouright if it sucks and doesn't work.
Thanks

Hi Kristin,
I'll give you my 2cts on the Shiv build. I play one myself right now, with a slightly different focus. I'll answer your questions first, then add some of my observations

PSI: Sheepherder is using specific combinations of temporal manipulation to always have acceleration going. This is very useful but only late game. In the beginning taking PTA for instance adds one attack, but taking damage feats early might make more sense. So after Depot A you want Temporal 55 to buy the PSI Speed mentor in Rail Crossing, but PTA could wait as feat.

MErcantile allows you to buy better components when crafting knives. Since you use Shiv which is independent of quality, you could completely ignore it in the beginning. One exception: Blaine (Merc 25 and 45 I think) quite early offers Shiv blueprint and good knife components so this could make things easier. If you use a backup knife with energy edge this makes you good against robots. Energy edges are extremely rare early game, if you find one, awesome!

Throwing: The build is not too skill-points starved (since you would not need to craft much except your critical leather armor quite late), so throwing is a good investment to make your nets stick even with mobile enemies. I would continue putting points into it. Nets are another good shot you have a triggering opportunist and crowd controlling enemies.

Headslot: Not a lot to do in the beginning, maybe Balaclava for stealth, which helps to get close to your targets. Later on maybe in combination with Brutality feat you could use the Death Grin thing. Brutality would give you a bit more crowd control, but late game.

Detection is shit in a PER 3 build, not a lot to be done, meta game knowledge can help.

Now for my experience with a Shiv build with slightly different focus, which takes Fancy Footwork and Damage early.
It starts with stats: 3 10 6 9 3 4 5, you add AGI then WILL, rest in DEX
Feats in order: Recklessness, Survival Instincts, Expertise, Opportunist, Fancy Footwork, Cheap Shots, Ripper, Taste for Blood, Critical Power, Expose Weakness (maybe this one earlier!)

If you spec the build that way, you have very early on enough shiv attacks but here comes the good part: you are extremely agile and already do good shiv damage earlier than in the original build: you tase your enemy, shiv it a lot, then use all the MP you gained to run away and kite them. With so many attacks and Cheap shots, you are also getting an Incap every round, so for most non robot enemies, a shiv can even on low level do a good job, even though it takes you many rounds to kill off the single enemy. Groups are annoying of course. I think the alternative build comes into its own a bit earlier than Sheepherders and it was fun playing it so far.

Sheepherder's dictum however is valid: don't play a shiv build
(it's slow and weak compared to a dex crit brawler or normal knife build even and you need a lot of meta knowledge)

Kidding aside, if you know what you are getting into, it's fun however! For me, mostly the fancy footwork running thing was cool.


(edited to correct starting stats distribution)

[Kristin94]

Hey

Thanks for the reply!

Thing is, I know Diddly-squat about making a Knife Build nor how to play it. But Shiv seemed fun and I'm handling it quite well so far.
Flashbangs, Throwing Nets, Tasers, Cheap Shots, kitting, alot of crits etc.
I like how important CC is for this build.

This is the build I use rn after some Discord Advice:
https://underrail.info/build/?HgMLBwkDBwYARwDCoCgAwqBsSAAAE3QvKV4AAAB4AAAAYjkmMQZcK8KHEks8E8KIKsKFesKzUeKnvgrfvw

I skipped Persuasion & Mercantile entirely this time around in favor of having higher TM & Throwing earlier and more consistently.

Thing is: Not sure yet if I need special merchandise from Becket to buy Nail Bombs which are quite vital for the build & special merchandise from Harlan to craft Plasma Grenades.
Haven't seen Sheepherder use Energy Edge Knifes so I'm not sure if they're essentiell or not. I like to use Nades for those nasty Robots and Turrets and such.

You think I should build and include them?
Also, can you tell me If Becket sells Nail Bombs even without Mercantile?

Last but not least: Thank you for your Build advice. I'll give it a thought!

[DerivativeZero]

Well the good thing is you can always also fall back on knives if the shiv doesn't shank shit properly.

I want to say Beckett has them grenades without Mercantile but I'm not sure. My gut says yes, as its part of the special faction merchandise.

Those grenades come late and also not in huge quantities, so honestly: don't build too much on this. You can get people to bleed using Bear Traps, cool and easy to do. Can lay 'em in combat if you take the feat Quick Tinkering. Or prep the battle field ahead. You can, and that's how I did it for my shiv build, also just carry a serrated edge knife and use that until the first stack of bleed comes, then you switch immediately to shiv to exploit the low AP of the shiv, building the 10 stacks of Taste for Blood quickly. Alternatively, you could also use Leather gloves with serrated edges or the unique Claw or Ripper's Glove later on to initiate the bleeding (Leather Gloves trigger bleed with 35% as opposed to 25% of a knife, Ripper's Glove has three insane chances for bleed which add up to above 50% bleed trigger per attack!). Sorry for stating this if you know it already, but TfB just requires one stack of blood and you hit that guy 10x and are good to go for your 50% damage boost.

More throwing earlier is great, yes, good choice.

One thing about your build: you take Premeditation and Only TM psi stuff. That's a shame. Go 30 points psychokinesis or 45 so you get Electrokinesis (which is a free stun with Premeditation) or even the Electro-Trap you put on the ground and whose name I'm to lazy to google right now. The increase in PSI cost doesn't really matter for you. Force Field can also help in a pinch, so Electrokinesis with low investment ain't that bad to try out, especially since you can cast stuff AP neutrally later on.

As to energy edges: if you want the pure masochistic shiv experience, shun them. If you want to play a shiv build who isn't above using other stuff if required, why not use knives with electro damage or energy edge (the latter ones can't be bought and require some Electronics to crafT). Energy edges deal energy damage and hence are great against robots and tin cans. (A typical knife crit build could go with energy edge TiChrome serrated knife that has 11 AP and hence at high Dex hits for 5 to 6 AP, deals extra energy damage which is usually not well resisted and triggers bleeds and hence TfB, all in all leading to quite insane damage outputs).

My only caveat: if you use one of those high damage knives ... you might be tempted to chuck the shiv and just go knife.