Author Topic: Concerning skills and crafting  (Read 8371 times)

JohnyCrown

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Concerning skills and crafting
« on: February 03, 2014, 04:38:27 am »
Started a new character a few days ago to try and do a more stealthy and crafting based character since I really hadn't messed too much with either.  After playing this type for awhile I realized and observed something I think should be addressed.

-Crafting - More often than not I can't make any equipment because the prerequisites are almost always too high.  Some things require like 40-60 points in a certain technology for me to be able to use it and even if you put in the initial 15 points to a crafting skill and put 5 in each level you still need to be at level 6-10 to just to make some halfway decent items.  And by the time I get to that level I could have already bought something better.  I think I read somewhere that it's random on how high a certain crafting components level is.   Now here's a couple suggestions to make crafting a little more rewarding while still maintaining the idea you're going for.  It also seems crafting components for armor and weapons are a little scarce also.  Crafting although not horrible by any means in its current form as I still can craft SOME things I think it could use a little tweaking. 

Suggestion 1
Make it so you're allowed to put in 20 points initially in each skill and up to 10 at every level up.  This way if someone really wants to they can have a skill at 100 at level 9 if they really want to and this could make it where you can craft stuff better than what you can buy in most cases. 

Suggestion 2
Make it so the random craft components are generally lower at early parts of the game (maybe they are but they seem to still be too high in too many cases).  Maybe make a stop gap of 20-25 for parts up till Junkyard then maybe up to 40-45 till rail crossing and so on so the components can match the average crafting skill if 5 points were to be invested at each level up.

I know others probably have a little better success with crafting in its current form than I do.  Maybe I'm going about it wrong or something but to me as of now in its current form it doesn't seem too useful.  Thanks for reading.

Elhazzared

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Re: Concerning skills and crafting
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2014, 12:34:28 pm »
This is the same problem I keep talking about crafting and hasn't been addressed yet. Rather Styg doesn't belives this is a problem and wants to keep it as it is. What you can craft is always inferior to what you can buy. This is a major problem because you are investing into something with little use.

Your first sugestion would actually screw the balance pretty badly since you could have players getting certain skills incredibly high and becoming incredibly powerful in combat. This would be especially bad in the case of Psi character becoming horribly OP.

Your second sugestion isn't also a solution because what does it matter if you can craft an item of worse quallity? it will only mean that you are making something even worse than before and certainly worse than what is available to buy.

The only 2 solutions that could work are either the components start requiring quite a bit less skill for the quallity they are so that you can craft better stuff than you can buy or components stop having a required crafting skill and your crafting skill dictates how good the equipment you craft turns out to be.

JohnyCrown

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Re: Concerning skills and crafting
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2014, 03:22:55 pm »
Man you two guys get around this forum!

@epeli - You're probably right about the INT score.  My guy has 6, maybe I should try it at 8 or something.  I think the blueprints are fine and make sense.  The issue I seem to be having are the components themselves.  They are rather scarce.  I still haven't found a carrier vest to make a tactical vest at all and I'm halfway done with Junkyard, been to all shops at SGS and Junkyard and got all shelves, boxes, etc. and still not a one, my goal was to make one before I got to GMS but nope. 

The other problem is components requiring too much crafting skill.  I can find rathound leathers with between needing 12-27 crafting skill which is fine but then other parts will need a lot more.  A black cloth needed 37 skill, and soft padding needed 31, a high density padding needed 36.  Now before I would be able to craft anything decent my character would need to be level 6 and that's considering I dumped 5 points each level into tailoring but by that time I would be at Junkyard or almost and could buy something better than what I would have been able to craft thus pretty much wasting the blueprint altogether.   I know eventually I could probably buy/find better quality leather, padding but then I would need even more crafting skill to make those and by the time I got it I would be even further and could just purchase better armor. 

I know I can save a little money doing crafting since blueprints are cheaper than buying armor straight out but if I can't craft anything decent I don't see much of a point.  I know others have success with this but I guess I don't see how.  The only thing I can see that might make this easier is dumping a lot of points into INT. 

@Elhazzared - I can see how my suggestions wouldn't work too well given your explanations.  I do know something even small should be done to make it a little easier to craft.  Your solutions are actually decent and I would be more in favor of the second solution although the first would probably work also if its not adjusted too much.  As I've stated its not too far off the mark but as it is crafting doesn't have much appeal IMO. 

Elhazzared

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Re: Concerning skills and crafting
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2014, 04:09:27 pm »
You know, a lot of people actually defend that second alternative, I'm not even the first one to sugest it but while I did put it out as a solution, I know that Styg will not apply it, he already expressed in the past that he was not going to do it. It would have been the best solution in my opinion though however yeah, we can do with just lowering the standard value of requirement to craft items and it would keep crafting interesting because it would would keep players ahead of the curve rather than behind just because it can have extra stuff which is nice, but ultimatly not worth losing a ton of armor or a ton of damage.

On a unrelated but similar topic. I belive the patch notes had said that now players started with better quallity armor. I actually tried a new game today thinking the shields and all that stuff was already implemented since it showed version 1.10.1 rather than 1.10.0 but it was still the same, maybe just some bug corrections. However I notice that in both games I started I don't have better armor at all! I have the usual 18/3 armor to start with. I had hoped to get at very least a 20/4 armor which would have made a difference but... I dunno, anyone else noticed this? Anyone actually getting better armor to start with?

JohnyCrown

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Re: Concerning skills and crafting
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2014, 05:43:33 pm »
I had gotten better armor.  I remember awhile back you would always start with cave hopper armor but now its rathound armor (that's probably the better armor he was referering to).  There was one time though my character started with a rathound leather with overcoat that had a little fire resistance.  The other times it was just basic rathound leather armor.  Probably a random seed that mostly does basic rathound with a slight chance of something a little better. 

Elhazzared

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Re: Concerning skills and crafting
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2014, 06:14:08 pm »
yes it changed and there wasa couple aweful ones but usually it was 18/3 armor anyway.

Eliasfrost

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Re: Concerning skills and crafting
« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2014, 02:02:58 am »
I just wrote a post about crafting today and seeing this topic, I think I'd like to share it with you and see what you think about my thoughts on the Alchemy crafting system in TES and how it compares to traditional crafting systems.

http://eliasfrost.tumblr.com/post/76008610573/why-alchemy-in-tes-is-an-amazing-crafting-skill

Elhazzared

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Re: Concerning skills and crafting
« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2014, 04:27:55 am »
I don't know what game TES actually is (although I could know it if I really wanted to goggle it but I'm lazy) however it's a bethesda game and that alone should make me hate it cause I hate bethesda and think the company should burn for the atrocities it made to fallout... Anyway...

It's not like I don't understand the point you make and it's not like it is exactly a bad system, but I can easly see how someone like me would grow to hate that alchemy system... Now I agree that going to a node, pick up the glowing item is dumb, In my opinion nodes are right to exist they make gammy sense, no need to just make everything pickable and keep moving and picking up, easier to have a go there, gather as much as you like, this wastes less time of a player which is good. Gathering, whether you can pick as much as you want from a node or run around picking every flower you see is a chore at the end of the day so it's better to just have stuff that makes gammy sense in that respect.

Now where this system becomes bad for someone like me is that what you so much love, no level ingredients is that yo need to make more stuff and need to experiment with stuff that grew in an area that you already finish... Go back there just to gather... Worse than wasting time in gathering, backtracking which is bad in and of itself, only to gather more. This means the chore just became even worse.

Let me tell you about the most awesome crafting system. it's incredibly simplistic and fits the game so well... If you ever played "summon night: a sword crafting story" then you know what I talk about... As you explore you find crates that drop stuff. Enemies you kill also drop stuff. You bring those items to the forge, you smelt them back into their basic components (which is only 3 types at first then a 4th is added) and you craft weapons from those basic components. the beauty of it is that you don't even need to purposefully grind enemies or levels to get more items to smelt because so long as you keep using only one type of weapon you'll always have enough. If you want to diversify then you need to start going out of your way to gather...

This is an excelent approuch to a crafting system and it had to be done in such way given how the game completly revolves about you crafting the weapons you use to fight. At the same time there are no levels in the stuff you find since what you find is only to be smelted down to raw materials... As you go down into the labirint the stuff you start to get is just worth more total materials than in the beggining areas... What this ultimatly creates is a beautiful crafting system which does not disrupts game play with endless chores of gathering and backtracking.

Of course I respect your point of view, you like to gather stuff and backtrack which is fine for you, but many people hate such things and thus a system like that becomes bad to them. The reason i like summon night crafting system so much is that it allows what I consider a total freedom. If you want to master crafting of every single weapon, you can but lots of gathering is required and the only reason to do so is because you want and feel it fun. If you want to specialise to one type of weapon and not have your gameplay disrupted by gathering chores, you can do that too.

Eliasfrost

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Re: Concerning skills and crafting
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2014, 11:10:57 am »
Quote
It's not like I don't understand the point you make and it's not like it is exactly a bad system, but I can easly see how someone like me would grow to hate that alchemy system... Now I agree that going to a node, pick up the glowing item is dumb, In my opinion nodes are right to exist they make gammy sense, no need to just make everything pickable and keep moving and picking up, easier to have a go there, gather as much as you like, this wastes less time of a player which is good. Gathering, whether you can pick as much as you want from a node or run around picking every flower you see is a chore at the end of the day so it's better to just have stuff that makes gammy sense in that respect.

The thing though is that every plant is pickable and there's an abundance of them, so wherever you go you see plants, and you can pick up enough of them without having wasted any time reaching your destination.

Quote
Now where this system becomes bad for someone like me is that what you so much love, no level ingredients is that yo need to make more stuff and need to experiment with stuff that grew in an area that you already finish... Go back there just to gather... Worse than wasting time in gathering, backtracking which is bad in and of itself, only to gather more. This means the chore just became even worse.

The point I was making is that the gathering system should encourage you to go back and get new stuff, if it doesn't then it's failed its purpose. The TES games are also very open and you will most likely go back to a place you've been anyway just to look for something new that you might've missed your first, second or third time around.

Quote
Let me tell you about the most awesome crafting system. it's incredibly simplistic and fits the game so well... If you ever played "summon night: a sword crafting story" then you know what I talk about... As you explore you find crates that drop stuff. Enemies you kill also drop stuff. You bring those items to the forge, you smelt them back into their basic components (which is only 3 types at first then a 4th is added) and you craft weapons from those basic components. the beauty of it is that you don't even need to purposefully grind enemies or levels to get more items to smelt because so long as you keep using only one type of weapon you'll always have enough. If you want to diversify then you need to start going out of your way to gather...

That's basically how this system works, if you want to. See, the alchemy system in TES is not tailored to one single playstyle, it works for basically all playstyles. If you want to just take the stuff on the road as you travel, you can and you will have more than enough to make your stuff. Because ingredients aren't leveled, they are all found almost anywhere in the world, given the environment allows the plant to grow there. So you will most likely encounter the same old plant no matter your level, no matter where you are.

Quote
This is an excelent approuch to a crafting system and it had to be done in such way given how the game completly revolves about you crafting the weapons you use to fight. At the same time there are no levels in the stuff you find since what you find is only to be smelted down to raw materials... As you go down into the labirint the stuff you start to get is just worth more total materials than in the beggining areas... What this ultimatly creates is a beautiful crafting system which does not disrupts game play with endless chores of gathering and backtracking.

That's different from TES, in TES no material is level based and no crafted items need more material because it's higher level. All potions take 2-4 (3 in skyrim iirc) ingredients no matter the level. The only thing that you get with use is what the ingredients do and how they can be used. This way you explore the crafting system to learn new things instead of going down a linear path of leather gloves -> metal armor, you learn by exploring and you are rewarded for it.

Quote
Of course I respect your point of view, you like to gather stuff and backtrack which is fine for you, but many people hate such things and thus a system like that becomes bad to them. The reason i like summon night crafting system so much is that it allows what I consider a total freedom. If you want to master crafting of every single weapon, you can but lots of gathering is required and the only reason to do so is because you want and feel it fun. If you want to specialise to one type of weapon and not have your gameplay disrupted by gathering chores, you can do that too.

No, I don't like to gather stuff and backtrack because the system is integrated in a way that it can be played no matter how you want to go about things. If you want to backtrack and gather everything, you can but you don't have to. I play my game like an explorer. I go around, see new stuff, try new things and wander about with like 10 unfinished quests in my log, I do what I want to do, and the alchemy system rewards me for that too because ingredients are everywhere (like everywhere). If you want to loot everything you see along your way to your goal, you can do that to. The point of the system is to reward all playstyles without any other interfering with how you play your game, just like I said in the last part of the tumblr post.

I recommend that you look up The Elder Scrolls, it's an amazing game series with loads of freedom.

Elhazzared

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Re: Concerning skills and crafting
« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2014, 04:02:06 pm »
I actually hate elder scrolls for the simple fact that any game that has mellee combat should not be made first person... But that's me anyway... Back to the situation at hand. I'm quite sure that not everything grows everywhere and if you run out of some type of material you'll have to go back to the area where it grows... One thing is encouraging exploration, another is to encourage to go back to where you were before for no other reason than to gather more stuff and I really hate that. Linear paths end up being less boring because they don't require you to backtrack.

LazyMonk

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Re: Concerning skills and crafting
« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2014, 04:08:09 pm »
I don't know what game TES actually is (although I could know it if I really wanted to goggle it but I'm lazy) however it's a bethesda game and that alone should make me hate it cause I hate bethesda and think the company should burn for the atrocities it made to fallout... Anyway.
I can very much relate to Elhazzared position. Bethesda not only ruined they're own franchise they also had to ruin Fallout.
I liked morrowind despite the many flaws the game had but oblivion was a huge disappointment and i wouldn't touch skyrim with a long pole, even if it is better than oblivion. in some aspects.

About alchemy in morrowind, it was great. A pity it was broken and you could become the most powerful being in all Tamriel with level 1 just by abusing it. But i do admit collecting herbs, mixing ingredients and coming out with potions (some with drawbacks) was great fun.
I don't see, however, how could this benefit Underrail.

Back on topic, i agree with JohnyCrown on his second suggestion.
Suggestion 2
Make it so the random craft components are generally lower at early parts of the game (maybe they are but they seem to still be too high in too many cases).  Maybe make a stop gap of 20-25 for parts up till Junkyard then maybe up to 40-45 till rail crossing and so on so the components can match the average crafting skill if 5 points were to be invested at each level up.

EDIT 1: Elhazzared, TES worlds are very open and you can find ingredients everywhere. You don't have to go back to get them because to get them, because not only they are abundant and have substitutes, but also because the game doesn't lead you through a linear path.

EDIT 2:

I actually hate elder scrolls for the simple fact that any game that has mellee combat should not be made first person... But that's me anyway...
Really? Then you never played Ultima Underworld nor Arx Fatalis?
Linear paths end up being less boring because they don't require you to backtrack.
Unless there are inventory restrictions, right?  ;D
« Last Edit: February 09, 2014, 04:17:23 pm by LazyMonk »
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Elhazzared

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Re: Concerning skills and crafting
« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2014, 04:32:27 pm »
Nope, never played those I'm afraid but if they had a good emphasis on mellee and were first person, I'd never touch them. My problem with mellee and first person is that it's quite hard to tell what's in range of your swing and I find any game that doesn't conveys properly the notion of range when it is limited is just plain bad. In thrid person is usually easy to tell the range of the swing but not in first.

Blood inventory retrictions! :P

LazyMonk

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Re: Concerning skills and crafting
« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2014, 04:51:35 pm »
Not even Thief?
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Eliasfrost

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Re: Concerning skills and crafting
« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2014, 04:58:12 pm »
Again the system doesn't force you to backtrack, it's an option for those who wants to get even more of the type of ingredients they would get anyways.

I'm pretty open to changes in franchises, my all time favourite game is Fallout New Vegas and that would never have been made wasn't it for Fallout 3. I really like Skyrim too, it's doesn't have that feeling Morrowind had but it's an amazing adventure game, probably the best one I've played in recent years. Also Elhaz, if the melee is the reason you can't play TES, then you're seriously missing out on something. Especially Morrowind and Skyrim, which both works great in third person (morrowind needs a bit of modding to get right). Oblivion isn't all too great.

Monk: I didn't really intend to suggest the alchemy system specifically for Underrail but wanted to point out how open the system is as a whole and who knows it might spark some changes to the way crafting works right now though I doubt it. I'm just overly fascinated by game mechanics, I can analyze and discuss those for days. :P
« Last Edit: February 09, 2014, 05:00:34 pm by Eliasfrost »

LazyMonk

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Re: Concerning skills and crafting
« Reply #14 on: February 09, 2014, 05:41:06 pm »
Oh okay, well alchemy is pretty cool when done right, and if it wasn't for the lack of stat ceiling it would have been perfect in morrowind.
Still its pretty good if you control yourself  :D
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