Cave in as combat strategy?

[Ivan Bajlo]

Basically adding a weakened cave wall feature which can be used to trigger cave in with TNT.

I admit I was inspired by Sergio Leone : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N91fqyAzULQ

So this tactics could be used if someone wants to try to build explosive crafting character (i.e. James Coburn / John H. Mallory) so he would have to use stealth to place TNT close to the enemy and next to a weakened cave wall causing a cave in which would kill all or most of the nearby enemies. Of course more TNT would then be need to clear cave in making it not very cost effective strategy but very fun if like explosions.

This would make it possible to create some enemy heavy passages which once cleared could be great short cuts between important locations but would be impossible to clear until later in game with high level character unless you start building explosive expert from beginning so you can make enough TNT.

[Elhazzared]

Not sure it would be the best thing. cave ins aren't just very dangerous, you are effectively destroying the passages which you get through and that small underground metro section and some dug zones arounf it are what is left of the world, the surface inhabitable and there is even a risk to open a hole to the surface creating a huge new contaminated part of of the metro system which is not good for anyone and much less you who are likelly to die of the exposure.

At the end of the day, it's not that I don't like the idea, it's just that I don't think it would fit with the lore given that the consequences for that would be absurdly high.

[Ivan Bajlo]

Isn't this what RPG is about? Decisions and dealing with consequences of your choices and actions? That was the beauty of Fallout 2... you could play as slaver, mass murderer, drug addict, blow up a nuclear plant etc. basically leave a wasteland behind you. 

That is why I would reserve it for special passages infested with numerous or high level enemies which would serve as shortcuts in later game once you character has high enough level to clear them or early game if you can get you hands on lot of TNT (since entire passage would be filled with debris).

Maybe even a guard warning you not to enter the passage and once you blow everything up you get cursed by the guard and giving you quest to clear it up or you'll be in trouble with relevant faction. 

[Elhazzared]

Well but blowing up a passage also has cetain consequences like you can't move through it which means, you can lose access to an entire area or even completly lose the abillity to progress if that is the only way to keep going.

In fallout 2 while you even could blow up a nuclear plant the only result was that there was more radiation in the air and much thougher enemies in the wastelands, for no practical benefict I might add but hey, it's wasn't a case where you auto kill everything completly bypassing combat difficulty. It also wasn't a case where it would mean you couldn't move from one place to another or even create a large portion of the map as unplayable.

It's just my personal opinion that it wouldn't fit the lore, but that's just me, Styg might actually like it.

[Ivan Bajlo]

As I said this would only be relevant to certain passages which would be used as quick shortcuts for late game locations which would otherwise require long detours to avoid powerful enemies (and since it would be silly to have train or boat available to all locations) but if someone gets enough TNT he would get a huge bonus by gaining access to these areas early, high level character in late game wouldn't need help of TNT and would simply clear the passage old fashion way.

Maybe even some sort of boss enemy in the passage like burrower Queen which respawns any critter you kill if you try to use entree throw grandee and leave tactics so you need to take boss first before clearing rest of the passage if you want to do it without TNT.

So low level player would be forced to look for another (long) way until he either gathers enough TNT or becomes powerful enough to clear the passage that is if he doesn't like to walk around if he does like to walk then passage is no concern of his (to bad our athletic skills don't increase by walking around with heavy burden). 

[Elhazzared]

How exactly would he gain a huge bonus then? If you colapse the passage to kill the enemies then the passage is no more and you can't pass through there anyway.

[Ivan Bajlo]

How exactly would he gain a huge bonus then? If you colapse the passage to kill the enemies then the passage is no more and you can't pass through there anyway.

Have you been reading my posts at all? Whole point is to clear collapsed debris (rocks that is) with more TNT that is why you need to build your character to be able to produce enough of it, reward is for lower level character to gain easy access to some later game locations but he would still be limited on what he can do there since this tactic is only viable in these special passages.

Whole point is to make game less linear and special passages is one way to make things more interesting since it would allow for different gameplay depending on specialized character builds (like in Fallout 2 at the end you realize all you needed to do is put all you points into intelligence go just a little south of your vault and you would find Enclave base, persuaded guard to let you in and board a helicopter to oil rig where you can defeat boss and complete the game).

[Elhazzared]

Then I'm sorry but that would not even be fun. It's just a. Press this button to autowin this hard fight... You might colour it however you want but that's really about it. It's a way to auto win certain dificult combats where the game allows you... and before you say you need lots of TNT, it's not particualrly hard to get the materials anyway.

[Ivan Bajlo]

Then I'm sorry but that would not even be fun. It's just a. Press this button to autowin this hard fight... You might colour it however you want but that's really about it. It's a way to auto win certain dificult combats where the game allows you... and before you say you need lots of TNT, it's not particualrly hard to get the materials anyway.

There are plenty of autowins buttons right now, so far stealth sniper can eliminate any opponent with first shot and if you play with traps (I have yet to test Psycho powers)... and limiting material is probably easiest thing to do since if only one component is missing other are worthless (and I find timers are in shortest supply), also increasing skill needed to manufacture TNT would also limit its availability to low level characters make specializing more worthwhile.

[Elhazzared]

Going by parts.

No, there isn't plenty of autowin buttons. Yes a sniper rifle has the abillity to one shot on guy, usually enemies don't wander around alone, so yeah, you take out one of their friends, the others are going to start shooting you then, reason why you normally don't open up with a sniper rifle, normally you open up with some form of CC or mass damage... Before the mk5 grenades was the closest thing you had to an autowin button and even some enemies could take it... Now you don't even have that anymore because it's much harder to craft them.

Limiting materials means that players will be hard pressed to craft anything, in fact this last update made materials available in much larger scale because before they were too hard to find... Well, at least as loot, the merchants is still the same and no, it's not a good thing to limit that kind of stuff because you kinda need it.

Increasing skill to manufacture TNT. You know what is wrong here? The whole problem with the crafting system starts exactly in the point that the required  skills are already too high. This means that crafting never keeps you ahead of the curve, it only saves you a bit of money but your stuff is always going to be worst than what you can buy.

Again, it is not that i don't like the idea. I just don't see it as fitting the game lore nor being balanced.

[Ivan Bajlo]

I'm not saying my ideas are perfect and don't need further work, if it were perfect I would have become game designer long time ago. 

[Ivan Bajlo]

I'm thinking that's a little extreme for a combat strategy.
I mean it doesn't work very well as a gameplay mechanic - the points where you could do that would have to be very limited, or people would accidentally block themselves somewhere, unable to progress further in the game.

That is why I would limit it to shortcuts between important late game areas that way there is always long way around it until you collect more TNT to clear debris and we can add a quest "Some idiot blocked important passage and now has to spend a fortune on TNT to unblock it". BTW is there any way to use Psi power to clear rocks? IIRC Bisson is helping workers to clear rocks so instead of TNT we can add some Psi powers to do the same job?

And it doesn't make much sense lore-wise either. When you're living in a limited underground space like the tunnels of Underrail, you really don't want to block off any tunnels unless absolutely necessary - maybe to keep some huge threat out or at least slow it down.

Good idea for some hard choices... block a key passage until much later in the game to limit number of enemies and maybe even save a settlement or leave it open so you keep access to locations at the cost of increased number of enemies and massacre of civilians.