Author Topic: Underrail has such a contradictory design  (Read 4195 times)

Myrthian

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Underrail has such a contradictory design
« on: February 02, 2022, 09:09:40 am »
I'm level 16 on normal classic with a MT TM build, after repeatedly failing at Depot A with various builds, but now it's smooth sailing exploring the different layers and questing.
What gets me is the glaring contradictory design.

What do we have:
  • You have to be able to handle organic and non-organic enemies
  • You have to be able to handle single targets and large groups of enemies
  • You have to be able to deal with invisible enemies and traps
  • Crafting for the best items
  • Skill-based system which affects hit-chance, damage and requirements to even be able to use an item/weapon

With that in mind:
  • How come Throwing is the de facto best off-spec as it offers grenades for every single enemy type + group size? -> effectively just completely breaks rules 1 and 2 as a single off-spec skill just counters everything
  • How come Stealth is the other de facto best off-specc as you can completely avoid enemy types or groups you can't/don't want to fight, or get the drop on enemies? -> completely mitigates 1, 2 and 3 to some degree
  • How come any ranged build inherently gets the PER benefits, something every other build has to fight for with items and buffs to counter invisible enemies/traps?
  • Crafting obviously is a hard requirement as you can craft the best items, including ammo, grenades, traps, consumables + you can craft important items like e.g. a tactical vest/with psi beetle very early and thus have a far better/easier early game
  • Who the hell thought a random vendor inventory is fun in a game that pushes crafting to such a degree, and then not even offering a means to manually reset the inventory outside of using Cheat Engine?
  • Why the hell does Bear Trap have no skill requirements while offering big damage, instant and DoT, and a 3 turn root to carpet-trap whole areas before engaging combat? -> just breaks 1-3
  • Why the hell do AoE PSI abilities have a hit chance? PSI inherently has to invest a lot of points into INT and WILL, low CON, low-ish PER, and has to juggle PSI points during combat, and then you're "rewarded" with missing your AoE spells?
  • Depot A: after being forced to redo it a few times I understood that it's not that difficult, it's just that the level design completely breaks with the previous one up to that point of large areas with plenty of space to move around. Now you have to fight in small spaces and corridors with little room to retreat, where opening doors will immediately put you into combat with 4-5 enemies

As with similar games I play it despite it being a turn-based game, and not because of it, as the story and presentation keeps me going.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2022, 09:13:17 am by Myrthian »

Turbodevil

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Re: Underrail has such a contradictory design
« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2022, 10:33:25 am »
All your points boil down to the genre. This would be unacceptable in, say, aRPG. But Underrail is classic cRPG. These are intentional game design choices. Let's take Grenades for example. They are power equalizer. No matter how bad your build is, you can always throw that Mark IV and solve the problem. But it's not free: you spent precious utility slots that could be used for nets, stun rod, caltrops or flashbangs. They are not mandatory: you can have similar effect with mines or metathermic. Or you can go all in into them, max throwing to make them crit 75% of time. But even then, they have cooldown for balance reason (and you can only craft/carry so many of them) so they won't solve all your problems.

All this allow for great freedom on how you choose to play (and not to play). Which is typical quality of good cRPGs.

Your build is meant to fail for some encounters, and this is fine. The game offers you plenty of options to figure out how to deal with seemingly undefeatable opponents. Invisible crawlers ruin your day? Make yourself immune to melee and/or poison, flashbang them, flare / yell them out of stealth etc. Or avoid them until you overlevel the area. Options and tactics can matter more than your build. Which again is cRPG style.

Ploluap

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Re: Underrail has such a contradictory design
« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2022, 10:36:52 am »
I see no contradiction here.

Underrail offers a large diversity of playstyles against a large diversity of threats, and it does it very well.

If you wanna play with stealth and grenades you can do it, and even beat the game only with that.

If you don't you can also do it, there are other ways, it's up to you :)

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Myrthian

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Re: Underrail has such a contradictory design
« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2022, 12:04:31 pm »
All your points boil down to the genre. This would be unacceptable in, say, aRPG. But Underrail is classic cRPG. These are intentional game design choices. Let's take Grenades for example. They are power equalizer. No matter how bad your build is, you can always throw that Mark IV and solve the problem. But it's not free: you spent precious utility slots that could be used for nets, stun rod, caltrops or flashbangs. They are not mandatory: you can have similar effect with mines or metathermic. Or you can go all in into them, max throwing to make them crit 75% of time. But even then, they have cooldown for balance reason (and you can only craft/carry so many of them) so they won't solve all your problems.

All this allow for great freedom on how you choose to play (and not to play). Which is typical quality of good cRPGs.

Your build is meant to fail for some encounters, and this is fine. The game offers you plenty of options to figure out how to deal with seemingly undefeatable opponents. Invisible crawlers ruin your day? Make yourself immune to melee and/or poison, flashbang them, flare / yell them out of stealth etc. Or avoid them until you overlevel the area. Options and tactics can matter more than your build. Which again is cRPG style.

I can get behind the "No skill/skill line is supposed to be able to tackle every content and enemy" design philosophy if that's actually implemented, but it isn't:
  • Throwing counters everything as an off-spec, and is itself only limited by carrying those grenades + the turn CD throwing one has, ergo it doesn't matter if your main damage skill has issues/can't deal with certain enemy types, because throwing grenades at them solves that
  • The same in regards to stealth: if your main damage skill can't deal with certain enemies you just run past them and never have to worry about how to actually counter them in combat

I understand the intention of your argument, but for that to be true throwing and stealth just can't be such easy be-all and end-all skills that counter everything the game throws at you on their own while having little to no drawbacks/shortcomings themselves - which is why I refuse to play with throwing and stealth.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2022, 12:10:45 pm by Myrthian »

Ploluap

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Re: Underrail has such a contradictory design
« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2022, 12:36:27 pm »
What kind of response do you expect ?

You're only lvl 16 on normal classic and you obviously know very little about the game,

If you don't like it that's fine, personnal preferences is a thing.

But you're not likely to convince any of us who have played this for hundred of hours about this "contradictory design"...

Grenades have cooldown, they can miss, they use a dedicated slot...

Stealth won't get you past all encounters, and won't help you once a fight is started except with some feats.

And you're wrong to assume this " "No skill/skill line is supposed to be able to tackle every content and enemy" design philosophy ".

Every thing in the game do have pros and cons, yes. But it doesn't mean one skill should automatically win X% of fights while being useless against Y% of other encounters, that would be boring pokemon design "use fire against ice monster".

We don't want that.
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Myrthian

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Re: Underrail has such a contradictory design
« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2022, 01:04:52 pm »
What kind of response do you expect ?

You're only lvl 16 on normal classic and you obviously know very little about the game,

If you don't like it that's fine, personnal preferences is a thing.

But you're not likely to convince any of us who have played this for hundred of hours about this "contradictory design"...

Grenades have cooldown, they can miss, they use a dedicated slot...

Stealth won't get you past all encounters, and won't help you once a fight is started except with some feats.

And you're wrong to assume this " "No skill/skill line is supposed to be able to tackle every content and enemy" design philosophy ".

Every thing in the game do have pros and cons, yes. But it doesn't mean one skill should automatically win X% of fights while being useless against Y% of other encounters, that would be boring pokemon design "use fire against ice monster".

We don't want that.

>You're only lvl 16 on normal classic and you obviously know very little about the game,

True, and yet I've played enough video games for more than 2 decades to immediately spot + scrutinize how broken stealth and throwing are in a game which artificially ensures that almost all other damage skills can't deal with every enemy on their own.


> But you're not likely to convince any of us who have played this for hundred of hours about this "contradictory design"...
> Grenades have cooldown, they can miss, they use a dedicated slot...

I had to chuckle: where e.g. TC or a gun without W2C ammo hits a brick wall with robots you see no issue with a skill whose only drawbacks are the usual skill limitations of CD, hit-chance and using a utility slot?
Good one.

But do humor me: why, even for non-dominating builds posted in this forum or Steam, is there almost always throwing selected, even when the build itself isn't using throwing as the main damage source?
It's almost as if the skill does counter every enemy type + group size while only having to adhere to the same design principles as all the other skills, right?

And your "you won't convince us" remark is quite telling considering it's only your 2nd comment, with the first one barely even bothering with the points I made.


> Every thing in the game do have pros and cons, yes. But it doesn't mean one skill should automatically win X% of fights while being useless against Y% of other encounters, that would be boring pokemon design "use fire against ice monster".

You're trolling now as you can't refute my arguments, right?
It's almost as if throwing is by default a "boring pokemon design" as it offers all the damage types + CC to counter every enemy, right?
« Last Edit: February 02, 2022, 01:11:49 pm by Myrthian »

Ploluap

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Re: Underrail has such a contradictory design
« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2022, 01:44:53 pm »
I'm not trolling, i've played with and without grenades, i see the pros and cons of grenades, i told you some of the cons, that makes you chuckle, well good for you

You really could have made the same post arguing that psi is op, or that guns are op, or that melee is op, and the discussion would have ended the same way with you telling me that psi/guns/melee can kill everything easily and that it's flawed design, and that i'm unable to refute this...

By the way there are ennemies completely immune to physical attacks in the game, though i didn't want to bring this argument because i don't consider that the game better or "not flawed" because of this
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Ploluap

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Re: Underrail has such a contradictory design
« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2022, 02:08:11 pm »
But you're right throwing is a great support skill for any build, no question on that :)
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Easy

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Re: Underrail has such a contradictory design
« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2022, 09:11:51 pm »
Throwing kind of provides a floor for all builds in terms of damage. So if your build is bad, or you're at a point where your build doesn't yet have access to key feats, gear, or abilities, you can still progress by throwing grenades. If throwing wasn't set up like it is, there'd either be a lot fewer viable builds, especially on dominating, or there'd have to be a lot more balancing and tuning of how various builds work, especially at lower levels.

Hammer

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Re: Underrail has such a contradictory design
« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2022, 10:38:14 pm »
or that melee is op

I would not mind seeing this argument.

Valor

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Re: Underrail has such a contradictory design
« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2022, 02:45:15 pm »
Throwing is a safety net.

Bad builds can feel like they wait for every grenade CD like its their holy weapon to solve all and end all.

But good builds mostly use throwings as supplement, when many enemies clump together (4+), or when you mess up and need quick CC. And some builds basically only have (have) flashbangs as they do not have utility slots for anything else.

Shabby

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Re: Underrail has such a contradictory design
« Reply #11 on: February 03, 2022, 11:09:51 pm »
I have something over 500 hours so let me break it down:

1. "How come Throwing is the de facto best off-spec as it offers grenades for every single enemy type + group size? -> effectively just completely breaks rules 1 and 2 as a single off-spec skill just counters everything."
Grenades are a crutch for whenever your build cant handle groups, specific enemies or stealth enemies, if your build handles those parametres or you just go PSI you dont need throwing.

2. "How come Stealth is the other de facto best off-specc as you can completely avoid enemy types or groups you can't/don't want to fight, or get the drop on enemies? -> completely mitigates 1, 2 and 3 to some degree"
There is only a few characters i used stealth on, if you have high enough movement points/initiative you can get a drop on the enemy by going first, plus more often then not you want to take any fight you see for more EXP, otherwise stealth is only really good in the final boss fight and for specific parts of the game that can be tackles in a stealthy maner.


3. "How come any ranged build inherently gets the PER benefits, something every other build has to fight for with items and buffs to counter invisible enemies/traps?"
As far as i remember there is only one unavoidable trap in the entrie game and that is in core city sewers. If you want to fight off invisible enemies literally just walk in to them or use yell. You dont need much past that to kick them out of stealth. Also Escape master is great at getting out of bear traps if you do get caught.

4. "Crafting obviously is a hard requirement as you can craft the best items, including ammo, grenades, traps, consumables + you can craft important items like e.g. a tactical vest/with psi beetle very early and thus have a far better/easier early game"
Crafting is completely optional and i have beaten the game multiple times on characters that did not have a single point in crafting because they didn't need any, playing with specific weapons in mind especially. In addition you can get high quality "essential" gear for some play styles from certain enemies in the game. Just recently i started a sword character, zero crafting, went through depot A like hot knife through butter because very often speed compensates for lack of defence, also evasion and dodge can save your ass as good as any piece of armor can.

5. "Who the hell thought a random vendor inventory is fun in a game that pushes crafting to such a degree, and then not even offering a means to manually reset the inventory outside of using Cheat Engine?"
Random vendor inventory is requiered because parts have quality assigned to them, the game would be boring as hell if you could just go up to a random vendor, buy the highest quality part that he has every single time in stock and then never visit him again, and do so every time you play the game. If you want THE BEST gear then merchants are note even the best place to look for the highest quality parts.

6. "Why the hell does Bear Trap have no skill requirements while offering big damage, instant and DoT, and a 3 turn root to carpet-trap whole areas before engaging combat? -> just breaks 1-3"
Bear traps are a crutch for builds the same way that grenades are, they require setup out of combat and you can cheese the game with them if your build is too bad at handling a certain kind of fight, if you want to carpet trap the entire place in bear traps then by all means, if you have a good build then you wont need to place a single bear trap in your entire playthrough. Also my energy pistol character that crits for 5000+ damage would like to have a word with you on what you consider big damage.

7. "Why the hell do AoE PSI abilities have a hit chance? PSI inherently has to invest a lot of points into INT and WILL, low CON, low-ish PER, and has to juggle PSI points during combat, and then you're "rewarded" with missing your AoE spells?"
Single target abilities for PSI are already a guaranteed hit with no miss chance and on top of that PSI builds were broken beyond any doubt. Everything needs to be on about the same power level, even grenades with absurdly high throwing stat can "miss" by a few tiles, a guaranteed 95% shot can miss, you can miss on your third unarmed hit and miss your combo. Same can be said about making a sniper build and some times missing those big shots, yes it can happen no matter what build you go for.

8 "Depot A: after being forced to redo it a few times I understood that it's not that difficult, it's just that the level design completely breaks with the previous one up to that point of large areas with plenty of space to move around. Now you have to fight in small spaces and corridors with little room to retreat, where opening doors will immediately put you into combat with 4-5 enemies"
You have to addapt as a player to different situations and depot A is a teaching tool for that, its the first speed bump in the game that basically tests you to be able to handle situations presented here, either you are good enough at dealing with them as a player, your build can handle them with ease OR you brute force your way through.

This is your first playthrough and you are only level 16, its way to early to claim that something is OP just because you feel like it.

"You have to be able to handle organic and non-organic enemies"
Builds can use different weapons for different needs and can simply swap to a weapon that can deal with a "non-organic enemy", even throwing can do that now with shock shuricens. The only build that cant handle robot enemies is a build that exclusivly uses mind controll PSI.

"You have to be able to handle single targets and large groups of enemies"
If you can kill enemies fast enough then you can handle groups without much issues, otherwise in the words of a wise FPS boomer: "We do the wolfenstien 3D strat, bottleneck and blitzkrieg" aka find a single tile passage, run in and behind a corner, watch as they line up and block each other from entering.

"You have to be able to deal with invisible enemies and traps"
You can avoid every single trap in the game by walking around it, invisible enemies can be dealth with by simply predicting where the enemy is and then walking in to them if you dont have perception.

"Crafting for the best items"
Best items that have quality variation, yes. And you can get exactly what you want out of the gun or armor you are making, or you can just use unique items that are already available in the game as a supliment, plus they give unique stats and bonuses, just boils down to what you need to get out of your guns and armor.

Skill-based system which affects hit-chance, damage and requirements to even be able to use an item/weapon
You get enough points with 30 levels to invest in to everything you want and still have leftover points, the only limitations you really have is stat points, and at that point it comes down to build planning. By the time i start the DLC im already level 26+ also you can go for versatility if you want to test stuff and be able to use every weapon in the game without the need invest in to separate skills.

Also let me humor you: "why, even for non-dominating builds posted in this forum or Steam, is there almost always throwing selected, even when the build itself isn't using throwing as the main damage source? It's almost as if the skill does counter every enemy type + group size while only having to adhere to the same design principles as all the other skills, right?"
Or because people need a place to toss leftover points and other skills are usless to them on the build/they need a ranged option that is not a gun for dealing with enemies they cant reach because  they are doing a melee build/having constant scatter on grenades you throw from time to time is infuriating. If grenade miss chance lowest value was capped at 50% most people would never invest in to throwing as about the only 2 things that require throwing to be usable are nets and throwing daggers. Its not like you need throwing skills to use grenades of different types. And at this point it boils down to -> "Grenades counter every enemy type + group size" Not "Throwing counters every enemy type + group size" as i can still use grenades without investing in to throwing but you cant use throwing daggers and nets without throwing skills.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2022, 12:21:04 pm by Shabby »
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Shabby

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Re: Underrail has such a contradictory design
« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2022, 12:16:21 pm »
Also forgot to mention it in the last post but if you want to counter stealth enemies then use the single best item in the game

                                                                                 FLARE

Knocks enemies out of stealth in a big radius and as a bonus it scares away rathounds.
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Kekus Maximus

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Re: Underrail has such a contradictory design
« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2022, 11:17:45 am »
Bre did you expect to waltz in, no plan, no stealth, no tools, no initiative, and just murder everyone?

BREEEEEEE

South Underrail ain't workin' like that. You either dominate, or get dominated. Fellas out there stylin', slaying with sticks 'n toothpicks, because they spent time learning to be hardcore. And you, five minutes out of the Drop Zone, you think you know more than they do? Two decades of experience you say? Experience of what? Kickin' rathounds? That means nothing here in South. Next time bot slaps you with the pneumohammer, you will remember bringin' EMP rather then denyin' it.

Now go get dem dawgs and muties, maybe you will learn somethin'.
Or switch to easy, idk.