Author Topic: Underrail Infusion Fan Suggestions/Ideas Megatopic.  (Read 145579 times)

Vagabond

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Re: Underrail Infusion Fan Suggestions/Ideas Megatopic.
« Reply #15 on: Today at 02:58:08 am »
Stealth.

After seeing the recent YT short with lights being shot out and the new dev log on aiming, I've decided to post a post about it, since stealth as a gameplay mechanic is one of the closest to me topics on many levels. It's also the reason I've hold off talking about it in depth as more information about Infusion was needed.

To give a background on my experience with stealth, my major experience with it comes from the following: Splinter Cell Chaos Theory/Conviction/Blacklist, Deus EX HR & MD, Prey 2017, Intravenous 1-2, Hitman: Blood Money, Mark of the Ninja, Shadow Tactics: Blades of the Shogun, Commandos 1.

This also includes, but is not limited to, games that have stealth as an optional gameplay mechanic, like System Shock 1-2, Skyrim, Fallout 3,4 & NV, Metro series, or games where stealth is a supplement to it's main gameplay loop, like RTS games (mainly the C&C series), DOTA 2, Arma 2-3, STALKER trilogy & heavily personally modified Anomaly. In these cases it's mostly about stealth adjacent tactics, like guerilla warfare, sniping, RL psychological warfare (mainly shit talking your opponent in DOTA :D).

So I come to stealth with a passion to say the least and therefore what I am about to say comes from the years of personal experience in a variety of stealth mechanics. Whether or not what I say will be useful is up to Styg & Co.

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With the preface done, let's get into Stealth itself.

Stealth can be divided into two major and one minor categories: Pure mechanical stealth and sociological stealth for major, and stealth supplementary for minor. There is no official name, so I made them up.

Pure mechanical stealth is self-explanatory. It's the visual and auditory side of hiding. Your SC Chaos Theory and Thief. It's the ghillie suits in MW1 and Arma. It's the classic game of Hide and Seek.

Sociological stealth is the disguises in plain sight. Your Hitman, your DnD campaign Charisma checks in disguise, your Fallout NV faction uniform, your way and methods of acting out and hiding in public.

Stealth supplementary is anything that utilizes the concept of stealth to any degree, but isn't the main force. Your RTS games commando spec ops missions and stealth units, your "Stealth is optional" missions, your stealth is an option until you get caught (i.e. Brutal Doom).


So what use is this info for Infusion?

It depends on how Infusion wants to implement stealth, and in that lies the tricky part. With the detailed gameplay mechanics we keep seeing in every dev log, one might rightfully assume that EVERY gameplay aspect of Infusion will be as detailed. How true is that, only time will tell. But I always assume less until proven otherwise.

Except for stealth.


What I say now is the idealistic version of implementing stealth. It's how I see it being done correctly in a CRPG genre like Underrail. And therefore it is entirely open to criticism and being completely wrong.

First thing is the level of realism. Which is about near sim level.

With dynamic lighting, sound levels, LOS, different stances, environment interaction, different camo (if the screenshots are to be believed) etc. Infusion does imply a realistic approach to stealth. The pure mechanical kind. This does include the utilization of the Stealth skill.

Standing still in a completely dark room in the most basic of skin covering gear should make you invisible to the naked eye without even knowing what Stealth is. In practice this can be implemented through an innate Stealth Score. Alternatively it can be called Visibility Score.

It's a basic calculation of light levels, movement, camo (or lack thereof), surface color (dark textures vs light textures). The score goes from 0 to X. 0 being completely invisible like in the completely dark room and X being whatever number for full visibility.
Now the specified attributes are picked because they are universal AND each can affect the overall score differently, of course there can be more and the ones already said can have different names, but the main jist is there.

Take the opposite of the completely dark room, a white room. How do you become invisible there? Cloaking Device. So while light levels can be maxed out, Cloaking Devices can alter the numbers for surface texture and camo, and/or add additional modifiers where even in a white room, you'd appear invisible.

But then you ask, where does the Stealth skill come in? And I say, what does it represent?

Understanding stealth means understanding how you are perceived by everyone else on the visual and auditory side. Knowing how to move, to hide, to be aware of your own surroundings, to understand how noisy your actions are, to understand how perceptive your adversary is.

And in that comes the reason why I called it innate Stealth Score. Because you can only be stealthy to a certain degree, there is a limit where even the most legendary ninja is seen, unless short of having an actual invisibility potion.

Stealth skill is just a modifier for the Score.

But then you ask, well what about Stealth Mode? How can you differentiate between the innate Stealth Score and active Stealth?

Good question!

The answer lies in the second category of Stealth: sociological stealth. If Agent 47 were to hide in plain sight, does he need to activate a Stealth Mode? No. But he does need to do that if he tries to quietly walk up to someone.

I've always found it odd that turning on Stealth Mode in Underrail never raised any questions for the neutral NPCs. No response like "Why are you up to no good?", otherwise why would you try and sneak around?

So while with the Visibility/Stealth Score your character has this dynamic stealth number constantly on, which should also help in combat (both before and during it). Stealth Mode is when that is being used to it's fullest potential.

Ideally, stealth usage as a whole, both for those that spec into it and not, should be environmental awareness. Similar to how one plans a trap or escape routes for combat encounters, so too must one be aware of all the aspects for stealth. All light spots, floor tile sound levels, cover amount, additional routes and passages.

This solves the crutch of Stealth that deviates from logic, like being able to stay unseen under direct light a few meters away from an enemy and not be insta-spotted or NPC AI knowing where you are at all times unless they are at Yellow detection level. Those things are crutches and limitations of Underrail 1. Something Infusion is aiming to fix imo.

The point being made is that the current showcased level of detail in Infusion actively supports the notion of dynamic Stealth, similar to that of SC or Intravenous, rather than a binary on/off. That's actually one way I see the new combat, in how action heavy RPGs are turned into turned based atomic roguelike timescale, rather than classic RPGs like Fallout 1, 2 turned into roguelikes.

And as an example, lets use Gray Army Base as a test.

A fully lit, bright, clean military base, the moment the alarms go off, the lights are dimmed, but let's make it pitch black for our case, with only emergency lights blaring in the dark.

Now you are in the completely empty barracks, while Gray Army is off to some other part of the base, they don't know you are there, so you are currently not in stealth mode and are walking around in the complete darkness with simple NVGs on. Your Visibility/Stealth Score is near 0 because of that and anyone without Darkvision doesn't see you, lest you move near light sources. You enter the Main Hall and see a couple of Spec Op behind sandbags, their backs turned to you.

This is where you decide to turn on Stealth Mode. Notice that it isn't crouch, because crouching doesn't make you more sneaky (in certain cases its the opposite), but it does reduce your profile. Stealth Mode in this case means you are "turning on" all your stealth skill knowledge and experience, making your actions more deliberate and slow, but at the same time increasing your carefulness, to make sure you aren't more easily spotted. It represents those special stances that Agent 47 and Sam Fisher can do in their respective games, only simplified to a button press.

In the case of Gray Spec Ops, your high Stealth skill allows you to not make noise, a separate and very primitive feature that can be copy-pasted from previously mentioned stealth titles. But, alas, one Spec Ops is a Paranoic and turns around.

Here we come to a second part example of how the ideal Stealth implementation can turn out.

The first one being that the distance between you and the Spec Op was more than enough and in that distance between were some obstacles, be it pillars or crates or other misc stuff. So while the Spec Ops technically has a LOS to you, it's partial, because you accounted for such things and used a more long, but safer and more concealed route. Which is why when you stood still, the Spec Ops didn't notice you hiding, all because you Visibility Score accounted for all those variables, including LOS. And so as the Spec Ops turned back, you sneaked by.

The second one is if there was nothing between you and you are standing there, wide open, and despite you having a super high Stealth Skill, your Visibility Score was poor and you were easily seen by the Spec Ops. Combat ensues. However, you have smoke grenades on you and higher initiative, so you break Stealth Mode and somehow evade into the nearest cover and pop smoke. It does take time to expand, and in the meantime Spec Ops are approaching your last seen position, maybe even preping infrared grenades. You can't wait and use the partially expanded smoke to run to a different cover, bullets fly past or graze you, but you manage to escape their LOS. Now you have a multitude of paths to take to hide.

This is where the AI comes into play. Specifically expanded AI which looks like it searches for you, instead of have a wallhack unless you reach a certain Detection level, now actively seek out in a logical pattern. The most recent amazing example is Intravenous 1 and 2. If that type of AI can be implemented, alongside agitation states, where after exiting a relaxed state into combat they don't go back into relax mode for a VERY long time, then it would make Stealth so much more immersive and interactive.

Alas I can just say copy-paste all the good shi from other games, but that's a handwavy approach. Unfortunately, there is a character limit, so I can only convey the thoughts in broad strokes. But for now this should be enough.