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Suggestions / Re: NAGA Protector in your house
« on: November 06, 2023, 01:02:10 am »
it still can go outside to zap zoners
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Suggestions / Re: NAGA Protector in your house
« on: November 02, 2023, 09:19:30 pm »
technically speaking nothing they wouldnt do for the good number of charons
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Builds / Re: NOOB: Wants to do an Explosives build
« on: October 06, 2023, 01:05:51 pm »
wait up for upcoming dlc ya gonna have a blast quite literally
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Suggestions / Re: using beds at sgs and player penthouse in order to pass time and fully heal
« on: August 08, 2023, 08:36:53 pm »
you can do it with rifts very conveniently yet, besides local progamers already developed many strats to raise buck quick so i dont think it would be even a thing unless some schizophrenic would consider going to sgs merchants back and forth for worst currency to traders that are not very likey to buy all the shit for five minutes of realtime each sweep a solid idea
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Suggestions / using beds at sgs and player penthouse in order to pass time and fully heal
« on: July 14, 2023, 02:34:20 am »
since in expedition the cot bed is a thing it would make sense to give about same function to beds at sgs and penthouse that would pass 40 minutes of ingame time so instead of using cheat engine for merchant refresh and speeding the game at 5x to get something time sensitive done there would be ingame function that does so
maybe add sketchy resting places like at drop zone so it may proc events where you are being mugged for real
it also would bring some sense of normalcy to player character that he isnt loot powered hunter killer machine that secretes modafinil to function
maybe add sketchy resting places like at drop zone so it may proc events where you are being mugged for real
it also would bring some sense of normalcy to player character that he isnt loot powered hunter killer machine that secretes modafinil to function
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Suggestions / gun nut should allow to install third module on the gun
« on: July 07, 2023, 02:42:51 am »
be it in specs or out of the box its definitely would be very good for to be actually useful outside of shotgun/sniper adventure
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Suggestions / Re: riot gear's bizzare identity crisis + vest propositions
« on: June 27, 2023, 03:40:54 pm »
might add more shit as i encounter butthurt material in my playthrough but first is detox
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Suggestions / riot gear's bizzare identity crisis + vest propositions
« on: June 27, 2023, 03:33:43 pm »
as of recent i've been unironically gunning ballistics+3 (do not ask why i've been dead stoned to the end) so by the time i crawled to late game i found myself in quite not very pleasant position within said armor and propose lotsa change
so to characterize the problem:
The early game riot is in weird position of being totally useless and totally useful especially with ballistics, the riot shield is alright without feats and good as a spare armor between tac and shield. Also happened to find out the riot does not passes the depot as ya just get melted down into acid puddle, so till depot has a static spawn of biohazard boots the acid dog leather drip wins this one totally since i took less damage in it than in riot. It was useful only for burrower moments basically since it negated spawns and gave wee bit of extra hp and thats kinda it
The midgame is probably best part of riot since one can get very good laminated plates and enemies (especially lurkers n gangs) use melee mixed with smgs and other shit that with fitting boots annihilates any incoming damage till someone digs up a sniper rifle or psions pull up which made super good universal armor for awhile
The late game genuinely obsoletes riot in favor of tacvest with introduction of supersteel that dunks on anything sharp and fact that unarmed bozos already have difficulty with anything of high dt, simply wearing tacvest with any insertion and ss you are genuinely more ready for streets of britain than a riot gear user who will try to rely on shield or doubled melee dt that is less than of a tac vest user.
Tac vest made with regen, ss sheet and ceramic has fat 40 dt, 60 dt versus fist, knife and sword and 120 dt vs boolits losing only to sledge but even there you may just use uncanny dodge where the excess penalty aint much for the fact that sledge users attack only twice a turn, while the riot geat with same components has has only 40 dt vs boolits and 50 dt versus shanks, the shield comes obsolete either with introduction of proper spear and machete feats that both provide better block, usually have some sort of utility or ability that allows to pull out situations where you are cornered and after all just do everything better than shield does and could be used with tacvest where the only danger left could be enemy psions.
This also feeds another cause is that riot with ss sheet, regen and ss/tungsten shield has fat penalty and even fatter than of ceramic regen ss vest, trying to solve it with armor sloping also just brings up a question of not just using tin instead that is both more reliable than a shield and even gives less penalty at this point with wide scope armor featuring proper dr dt. Already having "just" ss sheet and regen vest gives whooping 40% for some satanic reasons comparing to 20% of tacvest
The finishing blow is that everything shield related requires a feat to work with with which adds additonal problem as builds that mix agility and con required to wear riot effectively are too niche to be stretched thin on feats. Use of spear with shield requires a feat, banally weaponizing said shield requires a feat, effective blocking while using knife or fist in order to catch up with machete and spear blocks requires a feat, and just to actually block with shield it wants a feat again which wouldnt be something to mind if shields were not terrible out the box as price to make them effective is to hog on lotsa feat space
Expedition introduces heartbreaker, leper and wyrm leathers that beat riot into pieces in every aspect while requiring less resources besides luck to meet a good piece to infuse. Heartbreaker gives initiative pass, leper makes extra tough in melee for just 5% penalty, wyrm as tested by schizophrenics in discord genuinely beats everything in melee defense. Thus just having a skinner feat obsoletes everything related to riot gear and especially shield minded feats while also having plain less penalty for significally better armor with additional perks that is superior both in melee, ranged and tactical
To propose towards riot:
Riot gear should theoretically take a more interesting niche between jeopardized gap of agility and constitution into favor of true medium armor and builds that have half and half instead of maxxing one of either, aswell giving ability to match mass fights like when assaulting balor's camp without need to refer to extreme cheesing.
The extremely obvious proposition towards shield would be making it able to take ranged fire, pk and mt attacks and shrapnel. The shield obviously blocks at last chest and vitals of character's body from incoming fire visually, it is animated that it is used to defend from incoming fire whenever shooting so it is pretty obvious that 8mm of whatever the metal used in is reasonable help in this situation.
Next is to make shield block work based on where the character is facing, starting with 60% to block frontal attacks, 35% by sides and be vulnerable from behind. AI on difficulty from hard should prioritize getting behind/encircle the shieldbearer so shield users would function as territorial/tactical fighters and be a defensive force for whatever group they are part of requiring some tinkering to overcome than being a discount tac vest user.
Shield bash should be a innate ability instead of feat in order for riot gear to be attractive to try with all its specs moved to shield arm that also should upgrade the shield bash to give more ooomph and stun the target instead, 25 ap to just shmack someone for 50 hp and lame effect is really not enough, even if its free after sacrificing much needed specs.
The regen and galvanic vests as well ss sheets have additional penalty for some weird reason while other components dont, this is irrational and should be fixed.
Allow installation of additional devices on shields to extend their tactical potential:
Stroboscope shield - uses helmet lamp as main component, enemies attacking up front of shield user proc activation of stroboscope which gets them dazed
Electrified shield - uses electroshock generator, attacks that hit the shield instead of a user make assaulter suffer electricity damage, twice the value of that applied in shield bash
Pneumatic shield - shows on sprite as shield with additional plate which hides the pneumatic hammer, shield bash deals more damage and sends target imbalanced
Spiked/bladed shield - first or knife attacks that hit the shield instead of the user inflicts certain damage on attacker, thrice the oomph when used in shield bash, adds penalty
Ballistic/Defusal shield - shield reinforced with kevlar or blast cloth to gain more anti boolit or anti shrapnel quality, adds appropriate penalty
The vest change n stuff:
The game features a trio of useless vests in face of biohazard, insulated and galvanic vests. They offer little to no use, rare to meet and even rarer to have one that is of high quality or even useful on background of more attractive options
Biohazard vest could greatly benefit from having doubled the bio protection and giving the same amount of acid protection, as well as being less of a rarity. CAU armor is cool but it lacks anti vandal quality when it takes to combat
Insulated vest is a funny one. Insulated padding gives chill immunity in leather armor and even more armor against cold, the vest of insulation does none of that and it should be subject of change
Galvanic vest is hot trash, it has no use whatsoever besides protecting player from exactly two (2) hazards in face of shock bolts and shock shanks that are not a problem at all with proper energy shield. Enemies dont use electropistols at all, only one enemy that really uses electricity as weapon are coil spiders and even there if you need specific protection against that one you are either horrifically stoned or are doing something equally horrifically wrong if shock bolts and manhunter pests are suddenly a problem. In order to unzone the galvanic vest it has to have energy protection as one of its main qualities as niche of energy protection is shallow and besides tin there is exactly nothing doing that at all
Sturdy vest is strong hmmmmmmmmm because it is trash in tacvest and has good run only in riot (which is trash armor and probably only one thing making riot reliable), it would be reasonable to make sturdy vest to give 75% health off its quality on tacvest and full 100% on riot in order for it to catch up with tin and poor survival ratio. Additional reasonable thing would be making enemy gunners (especially of ironheads) to start wearing sturdy vests since they feel quite squishy to kill
so to characterize the problem:
The early game riot is in weird position of being totally useless and totally useful especially with ballistics, the riot shield is alright without feats and good as a spare armor between tac and shield. Also happened to find out the riot does not passes the depot as ya just get melted down into acid puddle, so till depot has a static spawn of biohazard boots the acid dog leather drip wins this one totally since i took less damage in it than in riot. It was useful only for burrower moments basically since it negated spawns and gave wee bit of extra hp and thats kinda it
The midgame is probably best part of riot since one can get very good laminated plates and enemies (especially lurkers n gangs) use melee mixed with smgs and other shit that with fitting boots annihilates any incoming damage till someone digs up a sniper rifle or psions pull up which made super good universal armor for awhile
The late game genuinely obsoletes riot in favor of tacvest with introduction of supersteel that dunks on anything sharp and fact that unarmed bozos already have difficulty with anything of high dt, simply wearing tacvest with any insertion and ss you are genuinely more ready for streets of britain than a riot gear user who will try to rely on shield or doubled melee dt that is less than of a tac vest user.
Tac vest made with regen, ss sheet and ceramic has fat 40 dt, 60 dt versus fist, knife and sword and 120 dt vs boolits losing only to sledge but even there you may just use uncanny dodge where the excess penalty aint much for the fact that sledge users attack only twice a turn, while the riot geat with same components has has only 40 dt vs boolits and 50 dt versus shanks, the shield comes obsolete either with introduction of proper spear and machete feats that both provide better block, usually have some sort of utility or ability that allows to pull out situations where you are cornered and after all just do everything better than shield does and could be used with tacvest where the only danger left could be enemy psions.
This also feeds another cause is that riot with ss sheet, regen and ss/tungsten shield has fat penalty and even fatter than of ceramic regen ss vest, trying to solve it with armor sloping also just brings up a question of not just using tin instead that is both more reliable than a shield and even gives less penalty at this point with wide scope armor featuring proper dr dt. Already having "just" ss sheet and regen vest gives whooping 40% for some satanic reasons comparing to 20% of tacvest
The finishing blow is that everything shield related requires a feat to work with with which adds additonal problem as builds that mix agility and con required to wear riot effectively are too niche to be stretched thin on feats. Use of spear with shield requires a feat, banally weaponizing said shield requires a feat, effective blocking while using knife or fist in order to catch up with machete and spear blocks requires a feat, and just to actually block with shield it wants a feat again which wouldnt be something to mind if shields were not terrible out the box as price to make them effective is to hog on lotsa feat space
Expedition introduces heartbreaker, leper and wyrm leathers that beat riot into pieces in every aspect while requiring less resources besides luck to meet a good piece to infuse. Heartbreaker gives initiative pass, leper makes extra tough in melee for just 5% penalty, wyrm as tested by schizophrenics in discord genuinely beats everything in melee defense. Thus just having a skinner feat obsoletes everything related to riot gear and especially shield minded feats while also having plain less penalty for significally better armor with additional perks that is superior both in melee, ranged and tactical
To propose towards riot:
Riot gear should theoretically take a more interesting niche between jeopardized gap of agility and constitution into favor of true medium armor and builds that have half and half instead of maxxing one of either, aswell giving ability to match mass fights like when assaulting balor's camp without need to refer to extreme cheesing.
The extremely obvious proposition towards shield would be making it able to take ranged fire, pk and mt attacks and shrapnel. The shield obviously blocks at last chest and vitals of character's body from incoming fire visually, it is animated that it is used to defend from incoming fire whenever shooting so it is pretty obvious that 8mm of whatever the metal used in is reasonable help in this situation.
Next is to make shield block work based on where the character is facing, starting with 60% to block frontal attacks, 35% by sides and be vulnerable from behind. AI on difficulty from hard should prioritize getting behind/encircle the shieldbearer so shield users would function as territorial/tactical fighters and be a defensive force for whatever group they are part of requiring some tinkering to overcome than being a discount tac vest user.
Shield bash should be a innate ability instead of feat in order for riot gear to be attractive to try with all its specs moved to shield arm that also should upgrade the shield bash to give more ooomph and stun the target instead, 25 ap to just shmack someone for 50 hp and lame effect is really not enough, even if its free after sacrificing much needed specs.
The regen and galvanic vests as well ss sheets have additional penalty for some weird reason while other components dont, this is irrational and should be fixed.
Allow installation of additional devices on shields to extend their tactical potential:
Stroboscope shield - uses helmet lamp as main component, enemies attacking up front of shield user proc activation of stroboscope which gets them dazed
Electrified shield - uses electroshock generator, attacks that hit the shield instead of a user make assaulter suffer electricity damage, twice the value of that applied in shield bash
Pneumatic shield - shows on sprite as shield with additional plate which hides the pneumatic hammer, shield bash deals more damage and sends target imbalanced
Spiked/bladed shield - first or knife attacks that hit the shield instead of the user inflicts certain damage on attacker, thrice the oomph when used in shield bash, adds penalty
Ballistic/Defusal shield - shield reinforced with kevlar or blast cloth to gain more anti boolit or anti shrapnel quality, adds appropriate penalty
The vest change n stuff:
The game features a trio of useless vests in face of biohazard, insulated and galvanic vests. They offer little to no use, rare to meet and even rarer to have one that is of high quality or even useful on background of more attractive options
Biohazard vest could greatly benefit from having doubled the bio protection and giving the same amount of acid protection, as well as being less of a rarity. CAU armor is cool but it lacks anti vandal quality when it takes to combat
Insulated vest is a funny one. Insulated padding gives chill immunity in leather armor and even more armor against cold, the vest of insulation does none of that and it should be subject of change
Galvanic vest is hot trash, it has no use whatsoever besides protecting player from exactly two (2) hazards in face of shock bolts and shock shanks that are not a problem at all with proper energy shield. Enemies dont use electropistols at all, only one enemy that really uses electricity as weapon are coil spiders and even there if you need specific protection against that one you are either horrifically stoned or are doing something equally horrifically wrong if shock bolts and manhunter pests are suddenly a problem. In order to unzone the galvanic vest it has to have energy protection as one of its main qualities as niche of energy protection is shallow and besides tin there is exactly nothing doing that at all
Sturdy vest is strong hmmmmmmmmm because it is trash in tacvest and has good run only in riot (which is trash armor and probably only one thing making riot reliable), it would be reasonable to make sturdy vest to give 75% health off its quality on tacvest and full 100% on riot in order for it to catch up with tin and poor survival ratio. Additional reasonable thing would be making enemy gunners (especially of ironheads) to start wearing sturdy vests since they feel quite squishy to kill
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Suggestions / .44 lever action gun
« on: June 20, 2023, 12:42:28 pm »
so i've been thinking about a lot of recent that there isnt really much of .44 guns as should be so a .44 unique "sniper" rifle that after the refurbishment gets actual scope would be nice to see and fill the niche
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Suggestions / feat tweak and rebalance list
« on: May 06, 2018, 01:23:17 am »
gonna add more to post
End-game feats
Deadeye shot:
- Deals bonus crit damage based on perception, also gives 5% to-hit chance per perception point above 5. Can be executed only with sniper rifles. Shares cooldown with snipe and aimed shot. If enemy is killed, cooldown is reset.
requirements - 18 lvl, 100 guns, 10 perception and snipe feat.
Last Stand > Last Chance
- stops fatal damage and leaves player with 10% hp and stops any incoming weak damage (gives dt bonus), can be used only once per fight, dont pervents fatal damage that a twice more than maximum player health.
requirements - consitution 10, 16 lvl
Psionic Mania > Psionic Rush
- when active, increases psi cost but increases damage and reduces AP cost by 35%
requirements - will 10, any psi 80, psychosis feat, 16 lvl
Chemical Tolerance
- passive feat that prolongs chemical buffs by 1 turn per 4 turns and decreases comedown by 1 turn per 3 turns
requirements - biology 75 and doctor feat.
Neural Overclocking
- when active, greatly shorts psi spells cooldown at cost of psi. Can be cancelled. Shorting cooldowns while on low psi will backfire.
useless feat improvements and merges:
Interloper > Shadowrunner
- stealth penalty is based on light level, no speed penalty while in full dark
requirements - stealth 60, 8 level.
Suppressive Fire
- everyone who got caught in burst radius loose 2 ap, 3 mp and suffer accuracy penalties. Effects stacks up to 10. Enemies which got hit by bullet gain 2 effects. At 10 effects target will become flushed, losing all evasive buffs.
requirements up to 4 lvl, 30 guns.
Heavy Punch > Stunning Strike
- deals 50% of nominal damage with a chance to incapacite victum. Chance to incap 100% against unaware targets.
requirements are same
Juggernaut
- raises stun and debuff resist for every point above 50 armor penalty
requirements are same
Pinning
- triggered by critical crossbow and throwing knive attack
requirements are same
Split Spare > Knives Out
- when triggered, next throwing knive attack will launch 5 in a fan-shaped cone. When used with grenades, launch 3 grenades with accuracy penalty.
requirements are same again
Steadfast aim
- every pistol attack decrease cost of next attack by 1 ap and increase to-hit chance by 5. Bonus is lost at miss. Stacks up to 5.
new feats etc
Ground Strike
- deals 25% of nomial sledgehammer damage in a small radius around user. Targets caught by this abillity gets off-balance for 2 turns. May stun targets with weak resist.
requirements - 9 str, 8 cnt, 60 melee
psi skills
Feedback
- burns enemy psi and deals damage based on burned psi.
Psi Shield
- provides user a shield that uses psi for power and blocks all PSI attacks. Cannot be used with energy shield active. Cannot block physical attacks. Shield removed when stunned.
Weapon Channeling / Killing Hands
- when active, drains psi for bonus damage based on weapon ap costs.
End-game feats
Deadeye shot:
- Deals bonus crit damage based on perception, also gives 5% to-hit chance per perception point above 5. Can be executed only with sniper rifles. Shares cooldown with snipe and aimed shot. If enemy is killed, cooldown is reset.
requirements - 18 lvl, 100 guns, 10 perception and snipe feat.
Last Stand > Last Chance
- stops fatal damage and leaves player with 10% hp and stops any incoming weak damage (gives dt bonus), can be used only once per fight, dont pervents fatal damage that a twice more than maximum player health.
requirements - consitution 10, 16 lvl
Psionic Mania > Psionic Rush
- when active, increases psi cost but increases damage and reduces AP cost by 35%
requirements - will 10, any psi 80, psychosis feat, 16 lvl
Chemical Tolerance
- passive feat that prolongs chemical buffs by 1 turn per 4 turns and decreases comedown by 1 turn per 3 turns
requirements - biology 75 and doctor feat.
Neural Overclocking
- when active, greatly shorts psi spells cooldown at cost of psi. Can be cancelled. Shorting cooldowns while on low psi will backfire.
useless feat improvements and merges:
Interloper > Shadowrunner
- stealth penalty is based on light level, no speed penalty while in full dark
requirements - stealth 60, 8 level.
Suppressive Fire
- everyone who got caught in burst radius loose 2 ap, 3 mp and suffer accuracy penalties. Effects stacks up to 10. Enemies which got hit by bullet gain 2 effects. At 10 effects target will become flushed, losing all evasive buffs.
requirements up to 4 lvl, 30 guns.
Heavy Punch > Stunning Strike
- deals 50% of nominal damage with a chance to incapacite victum. Chance to incap 100% against unaware targets.
requirements are same
Juggernaut
- raises stun and debuff resist for every point above 50 armor penalty
requirements are same
Pinning
- triggered by critical crossbow and throwing knive attack
requirements are same
Split Spare > Knives Out
- when triggered, next throwing knive attack will launch 5 in a fan-shaped cone. When used with grenades, launch 3 grenades with accuracy penalty.
requirements are same again
Steadfast aim
- every pistol attack decrease cost of next attack by 1 ap and increase to-hit chance by 5. Bonus is lost at miss. Stacks up to 5.
new feats etc
Ground Strike
- deals 25% of nomial sledgehammer damage in a small radius around user. Targets caught by this abillity gets off-balance for 2 turns. May stun targets with weak resist.
requirements - 9 str, 8 cnt, 60 melee
psi skills
Feedback
- burns enemy psi and deals damage based on burned psi.
Psi Shield
- provides user a shield that uses psi for power and blocks all PSI attacks. Cannot be used with energy shield active. Cannot block physical attacks. Shield removed when stunned.
Weapon Channeling / Killing Hands
- when active, drains psi for bonus damage based on weapon ap costs.
11
Bugs / Re: Cant find Rupert Simmons?
« on: March 04, 2018, 09:16:07 am »
upper floor, he in his office
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General / Re: skill point / build ? for a relative UnderRail noob
« on: February 28, 2018, 11:00:31 am »
i dont see any point in merging crossbow skill tree with psi, at 19 level with your stats psi have to deal more damage and stuns than its crossbows counterpart
abandon crossbows, go for sniper rifles + smg or melee + psychokinesis
abandon crossbows, go for sniper rifles + smg or melee + psychokinesis
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General / Re: Stealth Build w/o crafting viable?
« on: February 16, 2018, 04:30:19 pm »
also dont forgot caltrops, flashbangs, tazers, molotovs, electrics and fire bolts, they provide good area denial in most situations
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General / Re: Stealth Build w/o crafting viable?
« on: February 16, 2018, 04:23:48 pm »first off pistols effective only in hands of untrained charaters and they cost a lot to be effective, if you really want a good firepower and stealth you should go crossbows or throwing knifesI would recommend playing SMG build, it's close enough to your stat distribution (just remember to pump the dex to the max on lvl ups). It's more powerful than pistol or crossbow builds and doesn't rely heavily on crafting - there are decent unique weapons for that type and smart goggles are sold at the shop, which will allow you to be decently good at killing stuff. I goes well with stealth and Ambush feat, since you can find silenced SMGs allowing you to pick enemies in smaller grounds if you need to. And it has relatively simple build - Spec Ops + Commando. If you take Grenadier and Three-Pointer along with decent throwing skill (as was pointed out - around 80 effective skill) you would be golden. I would also suggest Paranoia for additional boost to initiative and detection. Opportunist + Suppressive Fire are also good combo to boost you damage even further along with applying some debuff to the enemy
Attribute points needed - Dex as high as possible since it affects how AP per shot you are using, Per around 10, Agi 7 for feats. Also, if you don't intend to craft anything 7 points in Int is such a waste. Drop it to 3, you will only need to spend couple more points on hacking and since you don't do crafting, you have them.
Well, thanks again for your sound advice.
I think I will go with what you propose stats-wise but I still have two questions in mind:
- I am going to play normal so do I need dodge/evasion or would you recommend skipping it completely and maybe just invest somewhat into crafting (I consider tailoring for the trenchcoat and tabi boots, maybe mechanics for silencers?)
- I would really prefer pistol over smg. I'd be ok with throwing as secondary combat skill for the grenades. What feats would you recommend for that route?
crafting is vital in every stage of game but crafting takes important role in mid game to achieve better gear than you may find in shops or from bodies
rapid fire is almost useless if you picked spec ops feat
most vital feats for ninja build is nimble (minus 15% armor penalty plus armor class buff) AND uncanny dodge (gives you 100% chance to dodge melee attacks) and evasive maneuvres (converts all MP into evasive skill)
for offensive skill tree you need a smg and a aimed shot (100% crit) kneecap shot (bleed + severe MP penalty) commando (lets you do another burst after kill) and blitz as emergency abillity, about gun pick an steel cat 7.62 or 8.6, install smart module and laser/compesator for best spray and pray gun. Also jaguar is a choice with 5mm, rapid reloader and smart module for best sprayning
OR pick crossbow, marksman (special bolts take no AP) quick pockets AND utility belt (they are vital as good crossbow) take aimed shot feat, kneecap shot and concussive shots for delayning enemy, when you go mid-end game pick elemental bolts and vile weaponry. Keep in mind that crossbows cost a lot in early game and require crafting but in mid game you likey will not have problems with money and ammo
about gear pick NVGS with smart lens (or with adaptive), ninja/hopper tabi boots, tazer as emergency weapon and any stealth tactical vest, they provide good armor against bullets but only one type of resistance, so be prepared to carry a spare vest
15
Suggestions / Re: Cryo Grenades
« on: February 12, 2018, 10:46:53 am »
they aint so useless but their use is just area denial weapon like caltrops, or just a way to kill without triggering a fight
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